[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg, and this is Cynthia, who is very kindly filling in for Jessica, who is traveling for work. Hi, Cynthia.

[00:27] Cynthia: Hi. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:30] Meg: I'm so, so grateful that you can be Cynthia Weiner for everybody who knows. Oh, my gosh. Have we been mispronouncing your name on the podcast?

[00:39] Cynthia: I don't think you mispronounced it.

[00:41] Meg: Oh, okay. Few. Okay, well, now I know Cynthia Weiner for real.

[00:46] Cynthia: You're not the first one.

[00:47] Meg: Okay. I hope I'm the last. If you have heard this podcast, you now know, too. Cynthia Weiner wrote a Gorgeous Excitement, which I think most people will agree with the Book of the Summer, especially with women who grew up in New York city in the 80s. I loaned it to my mother and I had to wrench it from her hands last week. And she's like, I know so many people who want to read it. I'm like, you can get your own copy. It's very accessible in all of your bookstores.

[01:22] Cynthia: Yeah.

[01:22] Meg: Yes, exactly. And you've been on all these book tours and you've been so busy. I've been watching.

[01:31] Cynthia: Yes. It's been really. It's been a lot of fun. And I'll actually be at the Brooklyn Book Festival September 21st at a four o' clock panel with various other writers. So you can just go onto the site and find that on the website and you can find that information. There's a lot of panels going on that day. It's going to be really amazing.

[01:50] Meg: Oh, wonderful. I'll include a link on the Instagram. That's great. I'm glad it keeps going. You must be exhausted, though.

[01:59] Cynthia: I am. But it's, It's. It's been really nice and it's definitely slowing down. The book's been out for a few months now, so it's slowing down, but it's been super fun and I feel very grateful. So. Yeah.

[02:09] Meg: And just in case any of our listeners remember, we raved about a gorgeous excitement on episode 142, take a hike, and Delivering With Love. So if you want to listen to that episode again. But don't. No, I don't think we gave any spoilers.

[02:26] Cynthia: No.

[02:27] Meg: Okay, good, good. We really tried not to.

[02:30] Cynthia: Great.

[02:30] Meg: So you want to get started?

[02:31] Cynthia: Yes.

[02:42] Meg: So when I reached out to Cynthia about filling in for Jessica this week, we talked about a couple of things that we could do, and we really. The Watch Party concept seemed to be the thing that fit best for this afternoon. So we talked about a Few different movies that we could do a watch party for. And landed on When Harry Met Sally, which makes all the sense in the world, given that. I don't know if you've noticed this. It's like a rite of passage to watch When Harry Met Sally, especially in the fall.

[03:21] Cynthia: Yes. Yes. Even today I was at the doctor and I asked the receptionist if she'd seen this movie, and she's very young, and she said, yeah, of course I saw it. I think everyone has seen this movie,

[03:32] Meg: and especially I think this time of year, because they have those beautiful scenes when they're walking through Central park and the leaves.

[03:41] Cynthia: Yes, amazing. And the clothes, the fall clothes that she's wearing, which I think we could all still wear.

[03:47] Meg: Oh, absolutely.

[03:48] Cynthia: Yeah.

[03:48] Meg: Yeah. Do you remember the first time you saw it?

[03:51] Cynthia: I remember seeing it in a theater. I mean, I remember really loving it. I remember thinking it was really funny. And I saw a lot of movies in the theater then, and I'm really glad that I did, as opposed to now where they're all on TV and so much smaller. So I definitely remember that. And I remember thinking they were pretty old, which is funny because they're not.

[04:12] Meg: Like, the actors were old. Yeah.

[04:14] Cynthia: And at the story, I was like, 32. I mean, I was much younger when I saw. Oh.

[04:18] Meg: That they were getting. They were falling in love at an.

[04:21] Cynthia: I think I maybe thought that. It's so interesting as we'll talk about looking back on this and the marriage obsession going on at that time. Not just in the movie, but in the country.

[04:34] Meg: Right. The biological clock situation.

[04:37] Cynthia: How about you? Do you remember the first time you saw it?

[04:40] Meg: I do. I was with my college boyfriend at the time, and he is not a New Yorker, but we saw it in New York. He must have come into town to visit. So maybe it was over Thanksgiving or was over Christmas break. And I remember being really kind of snotty about it. I was like, this movie wants to be a Woody Allen movie, and it's not now. Of course, at that time, I didn't realize how icky Woody Allen is. In my opinion, if I had known that, I probably would have been a lot more gracious to it. But also, I didn't make the connection with Nora Ephron because I'd read Heartburn as a kid, as a young teenager, loved it. And so when that movie came out, I just thought that was brilliant. And I didn't realize it was the same woman who wrote When Harry Met Sally.

[05:38] Cynthia: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And another interesting. When you mentioned Woody Allen, as I told you, I did some research for it. I mean, just looking on the Internet about the film, and one of the things I read was that one of the actors considered for the role of Harry was Albert Brooks. And he turned it down because he said, it's Woody Allen light. Exactly.

[06:01] Meg: That's what my impression of it was, which is. I mean, I. I take it back. But I also. Oh, my God, I love Albert Brooks.

[06:07] Cynthia: I know.

[06:08] Meg: Me too.

[06:08] Cynthia: I could have seen him. I should have seen him in this role. Tom Hanks was also offered the role first, as was Michael Keaton. And I think Billy Crystal said everybody was offered the role before he was.

[06:18] Meg: Right. Yeah. It's not an easy part to play. He's given a lot of, like, kind of sucky guy lines.

[06:30] Cynthia: Yes. And particularly at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah.

[06:34] Meg: And that's another question I have for you. I mean, it's the quintessential question of the movie.

[06:40] Cynthia: Yes.

[06:41] Meg: Can men and women be friends?

[06:45] Cynthia: I think so. I think. Okay. I have some views about this film, what everybody feels. I felt like they still were friends at the end. I did not feel the romance as much between them at the very end. So I was like, they kind of are still friends with a little more, but I felt that they're friends. Watching this back was very moving, actually. I found their friendship, the deepening of it as the movie went on, was very convincing. I found their romance, as I did at the time, a little less convincing.

[07:21] Meg: I agree. I do not think they had a whole lot of chemistry, to be honest. But the one moment that really just hit me so hard after they had that big fight.

[07:35] Cynthia: Oh, I love that moment.

[07:37] Meg: And how he apologizes to her.

[07:40] Cynthia: That's so funny that you're saying that. I was. That was probably when I was like, oh, I really like him. There's something about his face and his self recognition. I mean, when they're outside the wagon. Yeah, yeah.

[07:54] Meg: And gives her this huge, like, the warmest hug you've ever seen. And you just really feel how important she is to him in his life.

[08:05] Cynthia: Yes.

[08:06] Meg: And how important the friendship is to him.

[08:08] Cynthia: Yes. Well, you know, this movie had a very different ending. Did you know that?

[08:13] Meg: No, I.

[08:13] Cynthia: So when they first wrote the script, Rob Reiner, the director, was in a very bad place. Apparently he'd just been through a breakup with. I was gonna say Liv Herring, what's her name? Penny Marshall. Yeah. And then of their marriage, he was very. In a very dark place, feeling very cynical. He and Nora Ephraim got together. You know, they were pals. And they started talking about this, and he said, men and women can't be. And Harry and Sally are not gonna wind up together at the end. That was definite. That was really his. That was the original script. That was how it was gonna go. And in fact, it was gonna go like the very end of the movie was gonna be. They walk by each other five years later and wave and keep walking. Something like that. I mean, I wave and during the course of filming, he fell in love with somebody, brought this woman to the set. She was a photographer, not on the film, but this woman was a friend of one of the crew members. And he saw her, fell in love. The whole film changed because of that.

[09:12] Meg: And the invention of the Rom com.

[09:14] Cynthia: Amazing.

[09:15] Meg: I mean, isn't that. Because it's such a formula now?

[09:19] Cynthia: I love that story. I mean, I think men and women can be friends and then sometimes not friends and friends. I feel like the relationships can change so much over time, too. But I have some male friends from way back. Do you?

[09:33] Meg: I have incredibly close male friends. And not all of them are gay. Some are even straight. But, yes, incredibly close friendships that have lasted decades. And it is. It's a special kind of friendship, I think, because at some point you do make the decision to not be romantic, that maybe preserving the friendship is more important.

[10:00] Cynthia: Yes, yes. And sometimes if you do try to be romantic, that can actually end for good.

[10:07] Meg: Yeah.

[10:08] Cynthia: Usually it doesn't end up the way it does in the film.

[10:11] Meg: No. I mean, we're crossing our fingers for them. Well, I guess. No, no. And then we see at the end when they're being interviewed.

[10:19] Cynthia: Right, right.

[10:20] Meg: They've been together for at least a while, right?

[10:23] Cynthia: That's true. A few months. Years. I can't remember how long. They said they were pretty careful in the film to delineate the time, which I hadn't remembered. E. And that was interesting.

[10:33] Meg: You know what I thought was really cool about the way Rob Reiner told Time was that we're definitely going ahead. We're starting in 1977, I think, in college. And then it's maybe five years later, they run into each other, the airport. So we're going forward in time. The hairstyles are changing, mostly Meg Ryan's, but also the seasons are actually sequential. So you start in late summer.

[11:06] Cynthia: Right. When they're driving after school.

[11:08] Meg: Right. And then. Yeah. And then you go into fall, and then you go into Christmas. So even though you're going into fall, five years later, you're going to Christmas. Ten Years later, it's still going through a sequential seasonal year. Does that make sense?

[11:22] Cynthia: Yeah.

[11:22] Meg: Yeah.

[11:23] Cynthia: That's really neat.

[11:24] Meg: I was thought that was just brilliant of him as far as storytelling. Wow.

[11:30] Cynthia: One of the things I know, just speaking of sequential storytelling, this is such a small thing, but there's one scene when Billy Crystal, or actually Harry, and the museum says to her, you should wear. She's going on a date. And he said, you should wear skirts more. And then the next scene, she was wearing a skirt. Oh, I didn't notice that. Yeah. And I was like, they did a few things like that. Where would they be sort of hinting at something? In the scene before, I noticed that in the airport scene, like, she. In the very beginning of the film, she's watching him kiss a girl. And then in the airport scene, the next scene, he's watching her kiss a guy. Like there was definite. I don't know what you would quite call it, but connections as the film went along. It was. I don't know.

[12:07] Meg: That's really interesting. Also along those lines, they did this cool. Or Rob Reiner did this really cool thing of split screens, but also how people were being revealed. So we're looking, like in the airport scene, we're looking at him and we think he's looking at her.

[12:29] Cynthia: Right, right, right, right.

[12:31] Meg: Based on the perspective. But then when the. When the shot widens, we realize he's actually looking at the guy who she's kissing. I mean, they're just really clever things like that. And then the actual split screens, all the scenes in bed.

[12:49] Cynthia: We need to get to that one. Two things about the airport scene.

[12:53] Meg: Yeah.

[12:53] Cynthia: First of all, that guy, Joe, Gerald Ford's son. I mean, who knew? I read that. I mean, I hope the things I'm saying are true.

[13:00] Meg: Much better looking than Gerald Ford.

[13:04] Cynthia: I read these things on the Internet and I hope nobody go and say this is absolute truth, because who knows? But I did read that. I thought that was an interesting little detail.

[13:14] Meg: I heard you looked like a soap actor to me. Like very soap actor.

[13:17] Cynthia: Yes, you were very pretty. But another thing I thought of when I was watching that scene, that was so funny to me, and I thought. I was trying to sort of, as I watched the film, think about how are things different now? You know, and just in terms of watching it from this perspective. And it was five years later, and Billy, Harry has. He has. He can't place Sally. He doesn't know who she is.

[13:39] Meg: That's crazy to me.

[13:40] Cynthia: Yeah. And I thought. But at the time, it was so different than without Facebook, without social media,

[13:46] Meg: without a reminder of a person.

[13:47] Cynthia: A reminder of a person. So you could graduate and not see someone for five years, and maybe you wouldn't have even thought of them for five years because you hadn't seen mention of them anywhere.

[13:59] Meg: That's such a good point.

[14:00] Cynthia: Yeah. And I was like, God, that's funny to think of only five years. But I guess it was like that at the time. Or maybe for some people it would be like that. I didn't really believe he wouldn't recognize her, although she did look pretty different. But. Yeah, that thought occurred to me as I was watching it. How different, of course, the whole film would have been with social media, but just how different that time was.

[14:18] Meg: Yeah. And going backwards a little bit to their car drive. So they're sharing a car. He's going out with her friend. And so that's how they know each other. And they both need to get from the University of Chicago to Washington Square park because they're both starting their lives in New York, which is, I think, probably also why people just love this movie. Because how many people come to New York to follow their dreams? But then they clearly. They said it was 18 hours. Right. And they only stopped at the diner. So they drove all the way through. We would know if they had stopped at a motel somewhere, right?

[15:00] Cynthia: Yes.

[15:01] Meg: So they. They drove all the way through and they get out and they're totally refreshed. They don't look, like, exhausted at all. They're not like coffee cups, like, falling out of the car. I'm like, nice. That's true.

[15:15] Cynthia: And it's the next day.

[15:17] Meg: Right.

[15:17] Cynthia: And I guess they would be. Have stayed up all night.

[15:19] Meg: Yeah, they drove all night.

[15:24] Cynthia: Her hair.

[15:25] Meg: Her hair, it was so great.

[15:27] Cynthia: Right? And that feathered, like.

[15:28] Meg: And the Aqua Net, the Aquanet in the car.

[15:32] Cynthia: That was very funny. And the days of the week underpants that she mentions, which I had. Did you?

[15:37] Meg: I did not. Is it true that Sunday doesn't.

[15:40] Cynthia: I didn't know. I have no idea.

[15:41] Meg: But I.

[15:42] Cynthia: Maybe. And that was really funny, actually.

[15:44] Meg: I feel like Nora wouldn't have just come up with that out of nowhere.

[15:47] Cynthia: It's like the 13th floor and buildings doesn't exist. It seemed a similar idea.

[15:52] Meg: Is that true in other cities, by the way? The 13th floor?

[15:55] Cynthia: I don't know. My boyfriend lives on the 13th floor. So. Actually, I guess in some buildings it does exist, but it didn't in my building when I grew up. There was no 13th floor.

[16:03] Meg: Yeah. All I remember is, like, Because I grew up in a townhouse, but all of my friends who lived, you know, on park or 5th or whatever, there was never a 13th floor.

[16:13] Cynthia: We should find out about their cities, I would imagine.

[16:16] Meg: I have another thing about this drive.

[16:19] Cynthia: Oh, okay.

[16:20] Meg: When she talks about having she had really good sex with Sheldon and he's like, there's no way that you had really good sex with Sheldon. Well, I thought that was hysterical because one of my really good guy friends is named Sheldon and I haven't seen him since then. He listens to the podcast. So I'm like, what do you think about that, Sheldon?

[16:45] Cynthia: I thought it was funny too, because I thought he was making fun of the name Sheldon. Maybe Harry. I don't remember Harry being a particularly popular name at that time. Sounds like Harry isn't like the sexy name. So why are you making fun of Sheldon? I didn't know Sheldon named Harry. I don't think in the 80s.

[17:01] Meg: No, me neither. Now I do, right?

[17:03] Cynthia: Now it's come back. Yeah, that was kind of a funny moment. So I guess they thought the spinning the grapes. The reason he's spinning the grapes was they thought Rob Reiner and Billy Crystal were such good friends and they thought Billy Crystal would come off as too nice and too warm and too sort of lovable. So they had to keep making him do that. Was the feeling making him do, you know, sort of negative behaviors such as the spinning of the graves?

[17:29] Meg: Yeah. I don't think he came off too lovable.

[17:31] Cynthia: I didn't either.

[17:32] Meg: I was like, that is not. Now. If it had been played by Tom Hanks, that might have been more of a concern. I'm sure Billy Crystal is lovely in person, but that character Harry, I would absolutely, absolutely have been so friggin annoyed by that guy.

[17:47] Cynthia: Yeah.

[17:47] Meg: Like, he just. He also does that whole. Harry does the whole like pattern your face thing where it's like, oh my God, do I have to laugh at everything you say?

[17:59] Cynthia: Right?

[18:00] Meg: Yeah. Not a huge fan of that. Yeah. Can a man tell a woman she's attractive and have it not be a come on?

[18:06] Cynthia: Oh, because he says to her, you're attract. You're very attractive.

[18:09] Meg: Right. And she said, that's a come on.

[18:10] Cynthia: Right, Right.

[18:12] Meg: And he was like, no, it's not. Right. Didn't he say, no, it's not.

[18:15] Cynthia: He does say, no, it's not. Yeah.

[18:16] Meg: So that's a rule of hers, actually, that you're not allowed to tell a woman she's attractive. They both, both of them had a lot of rules.

[18:24] Cynthia: Yes. And I will say she looked. The whole first quarter of the movie, she looked so confused and bewildered and stunned every second. I was like, what did she look? Every time. Every time the camera went on her face, she looked more and more like she was in utter shock. Was so weird.

[18:44] Meg: Well, I have a hot take about that, too, to be honest.

[18:48] Cynthia: Yeah.

[18:48] Meg: I remember first seeing Meg Ryan in Top Gun. She played Anthony Edwards, ultimately widow, and she has the most heartbreaking scene. And I remember seeing that and going as a kid, just like, wow, that woman is such a good actor. And then, of course, she's gone on to do all these other incredible roles. I just don't think When Harry Met Sally was her sweet spot. I felt like there was a lot of. I don't know, it's like Billy Crystal is making these jokes and these wise cracks, and she had to act like she was surprised or amused. I just felt like she was always sort of under the gun to react in a way that didn't seem genuine to me.

[19:37] Cynthia: That's so interesting.

[19:39] Meg: And I do. I do love Meg Grinder.

[19:41] Cynthia: I do, too. Yeah, I do, too. Although sometimes she can get a little ticky, I think sometimes. But she dropped out of. Wait, what? Did I read Steel Magnolias to be in this film?

[19:53] Meg: I would, too.

[19:54] Cynthia: But isn't that funny? Like, yeah.

[19:55] Meg: Why was she in this film?

[19:58] Cynthia: And she was supposed to be in Pretty Woman, which I also. I don't know. I feel like I. I feel like I was being fed false information on the Internet that I just fell for all of it, because it all just seemed like, what?

[20:08] Meg: Maybe they wanted her for everything then? Because she really was it. And we hadn't met Julia Roberts. She'd just been in Mystic Pizza.

[20:19] Cynthia: Yeah. My favorite scenes with Meg Ryan in this movie or with Sally were with her friends. I mean, I definitely. Those were just some of the. Where she felt most. She was being most real.

[20:29] Meg: And absolutely.

[20:31] Cynthia: He was pretty funny. To the Pictionary. Okay, we'll get to that.

[20:34] Meg: The Pictionary is funny, but the scenes in the bookstore, I mean, I wrote down one of my favorite lines is, someone is staring at you in Personal Growth. I mean, that is possibly the best line. It's so wonderful of the film. And Carrie Fisher was completely understated. Hysterically funny. So human.

[20:57] Cynthia: Perfect.

[20:58] Meg: The first part of the film, she's dating some guy who's married. And there's just. They're always having this patter over the years, like, he's never gonna leave her. He's never gonna leave here. Are you Telling me he's never gonn. Meg Ryan would be like, no, he's never going to leave her. She goes, I know, I know, I know.

[21:12] Cynthia: Right? You're right.

[21:13] Meg: I know you're right. And you expect that's going to be the exchange for the entire film. And then she falls in love with the incredible Bruno Kirby.

[21:26] Cynthia: I know the best, best part for me.

[21:29] Meg: Yes.

[21:30] Cynthia: We'll get to the best line for me. The best lines. Yeah, I just, I loved all that. And she was reading. I tried to see in the bookstore. I did see what she was reading. Smart Women, Foolish Choices.

[21:40] Meg: That's good.

[21:42] Cynthia: Sally was holding and he was holding. Wait. I thought I had the book. What Young really said. I was like, what? What kind of book is. I don't even know if that's a real book. But I also made a note about her outfit, which was just by this point, amazing. She was wearing a red sweater, a brown blazer and jeans. And she just looked so good. Her hair is perfect. She looked incredible. I just. By then they started, you know, her costumes were just perfect. Yeah, love that. I love that. And the boathouse. The filming of the boathouse was so beautiful. It was Barry Sonnenfeld who went on to direct a bunch of movies. He was the director of photography. He did like the Addams Family, but he did other stuff too. I can't remember. But gosh, the way that they make New York look. I mean it's just. Oh, some of those scenes. And the boathouse was definitely one of those.

[22:35] Meg: Absolutely.

[22:36] Cynthia: We should go there sometime.

[22:37] Meg: And I think the wedding later on the.

[22:40] Cynthia: Oh, is that at the boathouse?

[22:41] Meg: I think that was at the Puck building. They based on what we could see outside the windows. So they didn't make a big deal. They didn't show us, you know, the statue of Puck. So we knew for sure. I'm pretty sure that was the Puck.

[22:58] Cynthia: Oh, that's smart.

[22:59] Meg: Yeah, yeah.

[23:00] Cynthia: They do a wonderful job with just. And just seeing that again, calling back those places. A sharper image. I had such a visceral reaction to see it. Wasn't there a Sharper image on 57th Street?

[23:13] Meg: Absolutely.

[23:14] Cynthia: I feel like I used to go there with my parents like just for like an activity.

[23:18] Meg: Absolutely. It was true. You could try things out and everything was completely unique. And in the movie they're trying out what is like basically a karaoke machine,

[23:28] Cynthia: but they want a music machine.

[23:30] Meg: A music machine. And then they're singing oh, this Surrey with a French on top. And then he runs into or he sees his Ex wife who has broken his heart. Which is also a question because people say that in New York, if there's someone you don't want to run into, you will run into them in New York City. New York is very good at, like, Right. Bringing together people who really don't want to be on the same subway car at the same time.

[24:03] Cynthia: She was in the whole time I was watching her when played Helen, I was like, who is that? And I remember she was in the movie Parenthood married to Rick Marina, the Rick Moreno's character. And I was like, oh, I recognize her. For some reason, she always stayed in my mind. But her hair was very straight in Parenthood, so she looked a little bit different.

[24:21] Meg: That's such a good movie, too.

[24:23] Cynthia: One of the things that I was torn about was, and I don't mean to be picking this movie apart, I really enjoyed the experience of watching it again. But it's so broad. Like the fact that they're singing Survey with a Fringe on Top, which was so funny, but was so broad. Like, it plays the whole entire scene, which I did think was really funny. Like, they don't ever turn off the background music. They have the people singing the song as he's talking to his ex wife, which I thought was funny, but that. And like, they're doing the wait. Like no information is imparted and just two people sit down and have a conversation. Like everything's part of, like, a set piece. Which part of me was like, oh, it's a little shticky. But then part of me was like, but this is what movies. What great movies were and are. They're like. They're over the top.

[25:11] Meg: Yeah.

[25:11] Cynthia: They're exaggerated. It's flamboyant.

[25:14] Meg: And we have to suspend disbelief because. Yeah. Would they be singing at the top of their lines at Shop? No. Someone from Sharper Image would have come over and said, actually, we don't let people do that because it would drive us crazy if people did that all day long. But no, in this movie. And of course, which leads us to the orgasm scene in Cats is Deli.

[25:40] Cynthia: Yeah, that was. I do remember watching the movie in real life in my very first time in the theater. And that was the one scene I didn't like because I felt. Felt like she would never have done that. Like, it just felt like out of character, such a set. And apparently again, in real life, she didn't really want to do it. Rob Reiner had to, like, sit down and show her how to do it and all of that.

[26:00] Meg: Ew. I Don't like that. Mansplaining a woman's orgasm to her. No, thanks, Rob. Ew. I mean, ew. I love him, too. Are you kidding? I'm a huge fan. But let's hope that that kind of thing doesn't happen anymore.

[26:18] Cynthia: And on the 30th anniversary of that. Of the movie coming out, they did a. At Katz's Deli, they held. I made a note about it. They held a fave orgasm.

[26:28] Meg: Oh, my God.

[26:29] Cynthia: Katz's Deli. Yes.

[26:30] Meg: Okay.

[26:31] Cynthia: Yeah.

[26:31] Meg: I mean, God bless Katz's Deli. At the time, I thought it was ridiculous. First of all, it was out of character for her. And I also just. I didn't really think it was that convincing. I respected the humor of the scene. Obviously, you know, the last line, the button line is priceless. But, yeah, that's when, like, they would have called security on her. And also, like, she's just somebody who is so particular about everything, and then she's gonna go, slamming table.

[27:11] Cynthia: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. But that's what I mean. It was very broad.

[27:16] Meg: Right.

[27:16] Cynthia: But then where Efren came from, that. Excuse me. That. Oh, she said something somewhere about Jewish. Jewish humor, you know, and how Jewish humor can be very. It was. It was. I mean, this was the 80s, I guess, so she was born probably in the, what, 30s or something. You know, it can be very broad. It can be very, like, Woody Allen ish. And very kind of set pieces. And so I'll see if I can find in my notes where she made it. It was an interesting. An interesting comment that she made about that. But on the other hand, watching it again, I laughed every time. I mean, I have to say, even though I knew the lines were coming, even though I didn't like some of the lines, even though I didn't even. I watched that wave scene, which I think annoyed me the first time I saw it. I was laughing. I was laughing at Bruno Kirby's delivery. I was laughing at the dialogue, which was fabulous. And so it's hard not. It was hard for me not to get swept back up in the charm.

[28:13] Meg: Absolutely. I mean, I'm a huge fan. I enjoyed it.

[28:18] Cynthia: Me, too.

[28:19] Meg: Tip to top.

[28:19] Cynthia: Yes.

[28:20] Meg: But I guess there were. Yeah, there were just, like, little things that sort of stood out where I. Frankly, I think I enjoyed it more now than I did in 1989.

[28:30] Cynthia: Yeah.

[28:31] Meg: And. Yeah, my appreciation for the Bruno Kirby, Carrie Fisher relationship, also them as performers, their dialogue. Oh, my God, the dinner where they

[28:45] Cynthia: fall in love of all time.

[28:47] Meg: Oh, it's so Good. I, again, like the perspective shift where they're. You're hearing parts of their conversations where the conversations are going. It's a double date. And the people who are set up with each other are not getting along. And. But you hear different parts of different conversations go in and out. And you can tell immediately, like, there is not gonna be a love connection here until there is.

[29:17] Cynthia: Oh, I watched that scene not even knowing we were gonna. I mean, weeks, months ago. I've watched that scene over the years. Cause I loved it so much. I just.

[29:25] Meg: I.

[29:26] Cynthia: First of all, it's just so funny and unexpected, but so, of course, perfect that the friends fall for each other instead of the people they're set up with. But then when he said, by the way, it's a Luxembourg, which I love.

[29:37] Meg: Oh, good call.

[29:38] Cynthia: When he says, I also wrote pesto is the quiche of the 80s.

[29:43] Meg: I wrote that down, too. It is so good.

[29:46] Cynthia: I know. And he said it spoke to you, and that pleases me. I mean, it was just. The dialogue was just so. Oh, my God, I love the two of them so much together. And I'm so sad that they're not around anymore. It breaks my heart. Like, it's the worst, you know? But they were just. When he says, harry, you and Ray are both from New Jersey. I've been on dates like that.

[30:08] Meg: I know. I've been, like, total silence. Because, like, they. That's all they have in common, and they don't want to talk about it.

[30:15] Cynthia: The worst flying date I ever went on. My friend set me up with a guy and decided to host us for dinner. I still can't believe this happened. This was many years ago at her apartment and make a whole meal, which was like seven courses. And the guy did not like me from the first moment. So it was me and the guy, my friend and her husband. And basically, we talked about, like, food the whole time, which I have. No. Like, I'm not like, a chef or anything. And then by the end, we were talking about candy. And it was like. This kind of conversation was like, what's your favorite candy bar? Mine is.

[30:46] Meg: Oh, my God, Baby Ruth.

[30:47] Cynthia: How about you? I really like a Charleston shoe and seven courses.

[30:53] Meg: That's like a prison sentence.

[30:55] Cynthia: Four hours talking about food and candy. It reminded me of this, where it was just like, we both sat there and we, like. We'd answer a question, and then we'd look at the two of them like, all right, now what?

[31:06] Meg: Oh, yeah. Hesto is the quiche of the 80s. I know. Which made Me go like, oh, I guess quiche is what, of the seventies. Right, Right, right.

[31:17] Cynthia: And pesto, which was epic in the 80s.

[31:20] Meg: I know. I love pesto.

[31:21] Cynthia: I still love pesto. No, yeah, but it was. I think it was kind of a new thing maybe.

[31:25] Meg: I guess so. It must have been because he wrote an article for it in New York Magazine, which is as the cutting edge of what's happening. Yeah.

[31:34] Cynthia: You don't see their. Their work much, I guess. You know what? Oh, another thing I read, too, which I love, when I thought was fascinating, was somebody said, and this is very much like sets in the city. You don't meet their parents. You don't know if they have any siblings. There's nobody around.

[31:50] Meg: You're right.

[31:51] Cynthia: We don't see their work. Oh, we never see their work. Yeah, I know. I did notice that. That struck me because, first of all, she's supposed to be a writer. One time you see her, like, clacking on a keyboard for a second. But Sally. And he's supposed to be a political consultant. What? I don't know.

[32:04] Meg: But yeah.

[32:05] Cynthia: Yeah. He never sees.

[32:07] Meg: And then he doesn't talk about politics and she doesn't talk about what she's writing.

[32:10] Cynthia: Yeah, you never see anything. Yeah. It was an interesting choice.

[32:15] Meg: Yeah, very. We see them going out to dinner. We see them playing Win, Lose or Draw.

[32:22] Cynthia: Oh, my God, that was incredible. That's another incredible show. Totally improvised, apparently. Yeah.

[32:27] Meg: That's awesome.

[32:27] Cynthia: Yeah. Yeah.

[32:28] Meg: I noticed they weren't drinking. They all were like, oh, no. He says, bruno Kirby goes, you can get a glass of wine if you want, but everyone's drinking water. Which I thought was, I don't know, interesting.

[32:40] Cynthia: Yeah. And the girl playing Emily, the one, the date of Harry, Rob Reiner's daughter. Weird. I know, huh? Yeah. Yeah.

[32:47] Meg: I didn't even know she was an actor.

[32:49] Cynthia: I knew she plays, but.

[32:51] Meg: Yeah, she plays. She's the pie lady. Like, she. I can't remember that she makes pies.

[32:56] Cynthia: Which also is Aunt Emily.

[32:59] Meg: Aunt Emily. She's Aunt Emily. That does feel like a very 80s profession. Kind of like Martha Stewart.

[33:07] Cynthia: Like David's cookie. Yeah, exactly. Right. There was always a name.

[33:11] Meg: Yeah.

[33:12] Cynthia: Involved in the cookies.

[33:13] Meg: That's David.

[33:14] Cynthia: Right. That's funny.

[33:17] Meg: Yeah.

[33:17] Cynthia: She was wearing, I will say, the prettiest dress in that scene. Sally. I noticed it was this pink. It was so pretty. I was like, oh, look at her. She's, like, in this, like. It was scalloped neckline. The clothing is not. It's a little 80s, but not hugely. I Think it was pretty timeless. I was very impressed. Although he wears a sweater vest, but not bad. Like.

[33:37] Meg: Well, that kind of makes sense. Looked like if you think about. I mean, they. They made the scene from the 70s look way 70s. Like she had feathered hair, blue eyeshadow, which, I mean, only some people were doing that. That wasn't really across the board. So it seemed like a very on the nose decision to make costume wise. But then once you move into the 80s, it's just current.

[34:03] Cynthia: Yeah.

[34:03] Meg: For then.

[34:05] Cynthia: Right.

[34:05] Meg: Oh, the other thing that happened in the. I'm so glad you recognize it is Cafe Luxembourg. That is awesome. The other thing is they're arguing. Sally is arguing with Bruno Kirby about Jimmy Breslin. I totally need to do a story on Jimmy Breslin. He was such a controversial figure. He was a cantankerous columnist and he had very strong opinions. And really, I mean, I think a lot of guys. It would appeal to a lot of guys. But I could absolutely see sort of Sally just being like, yeah, I don't really like Jimmy Breslin. Actually. That's kind of a writer moment. If she's a writer and he's talking about like this cranky old guy.

[34:52] Cynthia: Yeah. There is a moment there where Harry says, oh, Sally works at New York. It's written for New York Magazine. I was like, oh, she has. I guess she is a writer of some sort. Although we don't know what she writes. But yeah. So there was a kind of. And I love when Bruno Kirby's like, yeah, he's only the person who'll entire reason I became a writer.

[35:08] Meg: He said something like that.

[35:09] Cynthia: Kind of. And there's a great moment. Oh, I wanted to say when they play the game, it was such a random moment after when they're playing Pictionary or win, lose or draw and after the game is over. But the drawing that she's made is still kind of up on the easel and her boyfriend is standing next to the drawing. Bruno Kirby goes over and he says in this most sort of angry way, does that look like a baby to you? Or something like that. And just such the.

[35:35] Meg: Oh, he still doesn't like her.

[35:36] Cynthia: He's still mad about the drawing. But I want to find the line. It was so funny the way he says it. It's like he's like, oh, he says that doesn't look like a baby to me. Like he's still mad about it.

[35:47] Meg: That is hysterical.

[35:50] Cynthia: I love Kirby so much. Oh, Billy Crystal was wearing suspenders in that scene. I did notice the suspenders members of my family, I won't name, still wear. Which I don't, you know, is still an 80s thing, but still wear suspenders. But that was very big in the 80s. Yeah.

[36:06] Meg: I.

[36:06] Cynthia: Vendors.

[36:06] Meg: Well, that's like sort of Wall Street. Yeah.

[36:08] Cynthia: Does anyone wear those anymore?

[36:10] Meg: I hope not.

[36:11] Cynthia: It's just so Wall Street. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[36:14] Meg: Like a sign of affluent. Yeah. Well, now we think of it that way.

[36:20] Cynthia: Right, right, right. No, then.

[36:21] Meg: But at the time, you just look kind of sharp.

[36:24] Cynthia: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny, I made a note. Gosh, I forgot how likable Billy Crystal is when he apologizes. Same thing. That was a warm, a beautiful moment.

[36:33] Meg: Yeah.

[36:34] Cynthia: And baby fish mouth. That's such a great.

[36:37] Meg: Oh, I. There was one thing that.

[36:39] Cynthia: And I wrote. Her hair is awesome. Sorry.

[36:41] Meg: When she. Okay. So when they get together. And so we've got this scene of her in her bedroom and. Which I think is the only time that we see her in her bedroom. We see her in our kitchen, I think, or in her little office.

[36:58] Cynthia: In her little office on the keyboard.

[37:00] Meg: But in her bedroom, there are penguins everywhere. Did you notice that?

[37:05] Cynthia: I didn't notice that. I just noticed all the. Many, many, many different patterns around. There was, like, patterns on her curtains, and there was, like, a pattern on her beds. But they all were very different, too. That's what I noticed. Penguins. Oh, I wish I.

[37:16] Meg: Little ceramic penguins and stuffed penguins of different sizes. Penguins everywhere. And I was like, was there. Did they have, like. Did they have a scene that maybe got cut where they went to, like, the Central Park Zoo and saw the Peng penguins or something?

[37:32] Cynthia: I'll have to research that.

[37:33] Meg: It's such a random. Random thing. Yeah. A penguin enthusiast.

[37:39] Cynthia: And his apartment was so nice.

[37:41] Meg: Like, where did that come from?

[37:43] Cynthia: I was like, what? I don't remember noticing that the first time. I think I.

[37:46] Meg: How huge his apartment was. And that rug that he gets after the divorce, I'm like, that's a very expensive rug. Yes. But is a very humongous, huge, beautiful rug.

[37:59] Cynthia: Yeah. Supposed to be on, like, 11th Street. I read that somewhere. I'm like, how does anybody know that? Because it was never mentioned in the.

[38:04] Meg: Oh, I think because of the shape of the window. Oh, I've definitely. I think you can probably figure it out.

[38:14] Cynthia: I see. Maybe by the. They did show. Well, they showed some water towers outside by 11th Street.

[38:19] Meg: That's a really nice address.

[38:21] Cynthia: Yeah. Yeah.

[38:22] Meg: Because there's money in political consulting. I mean, isn't that weird? We don't even know if he's conservative or liberal. I mean, to be a political consultant is such a specific thing.

[38:35] Cynthia: It's funny because Heartburn was all about work. I mean, I recently read that novel again, and that was so much about work. It was wonderful. The novel is absolutely incredible.

[38:48] Meg: I read that before the movie came out, and I just thought it was like, oh, this is how you write a book, that every chapter opens with a recipe.

[38:56] Cynthia: So great. Yeah, yeah. It's really. I had not read it. I don't know if I'd ever. But I certainly hadn't read it since I was young. And I read it again last year, and it was really wonderful and all about work. It's interesting that this film had so. But I guess they decided to keep it a rom com. I think that was. They wanted a romantic comedy.

[39:15] Meg: And how about this? That Nora Ephron was married to Carl Bernstein. And Carl Bernstein was. Well, I guess. Is he a political writer?

[39:24] Cynthia: He's a political writer, yeah. I mean, wasn't he the Watergate guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[39:29] Meg: So he's not a consultant, but still, like, very. I wonder if, you know, just like, politics swirl. I read an article because we did a story about Nora Ephron on the podcast, and I read a lot about the year that she was discovering his infidelities and she had moved to D.C. right. And she loved New York so much and the fact that she moved to D.C. to be with him because that's where his work was, and then promptly felt like a widow just because he just abandoned her and the relationship. Heartbreaking stuff.

[40:10] Cynthia: Yeah. That was a very sad part of her life. It sounds like she married Nick Nicholas Peleczi after. And it sounds like that was a happy marriage, right?

[40:19] Meg: Yeah, I think so, from what I could tell. Absolutely. Another notable writer.

[40:25] Cynthia: Yeah. They must have decided to keep it. I mean, I guess that makes sense. I don't know. I guess if it's not gonna be a centerpiece of the film, such as you've Got Mail, let's say, with a bookstore, you know, which was funny. They had a scene in Shakespeare and Company in this movie, too. But if it's not gonna be integral, maybe they just. It's easier to just leave it out altogether, you know, to not. It's like you can't bring in just a little bit.

[40:49] Meg: Right. So maybe that's why I was thinking. I mean, Rob Reiner, I think he was born in the Bronx or Brooklyn.

[40:58] Cynthia: I actually don't know.

[40:58] Meg: He definitely was born in New York.

[41:00] Cynthia: Okay.

[41:00] Meg: Somewhere in New York. But as we know, he spent most of his life in la.

[41:05] Cynthia: Right, right.

[41:06] Meg: He was a. Like a Hollywood kid. And then he was on all on the Family, right before he started directing. But I just felt like the movie was just so obviously made by people who just love New York.

[41:24] Cynthia: I think they used to go, okay, I hope I have this right. To the Russian Tea Room to have conversations when they were friends. And then that sort of evolved into making a film together. I think Rob Reiner and Rob Reiner and Nora Ephraim, who were just pals, and they would talk about, can men and women just be friends? Like, that was the topic of the conversation. But I think it was with the Russian Tea Room. Did you ever go there?

[41:45] Meg: I did go to the Russian Tea Room, but, like, later than you think, sort of in. You know, now I'm in my 20s, living in New York, and, oh, my God, I've never been to the Russian Tea Room. I should go to the Russian Tea Room kind of thing. Yeah.

[42:01] Cynthia: I went there one time with my mom. Maybe went there a couple of times. But I remember they had a chicken Kiev that was really good. Yeah.

[42:07] Meg: Is it still around? Do we know?

[42:09] Cynthia: I think so. There was a very famous scene in Tootsie that was filmed there. Yes, one second. Speaking of Sex and the City, I think there was a scene, Sex and the City, that was filmed there when she was dating Baryshnikov and I think was with the Russian Dr. Although I could have that wrong.

[42:23] Meg: But I mean, honestly, if they didn't film it there, like, what a missed opportunity. That's on 57th.

[42:29] Cynthia: That was on 57.

[42:29] Meg: Mirrored. The sharper image. Yes, yes, the Sharper image.

[42:34] Cynthia: And all those places. Hard Rock Cafe, Car Rack Cafe and Conran's. All right, the sex scene. Must we? I guess we should.

[42:43] Meg: Sure. I mean.

[42:44] Cynthia: Sorry, I just don't.

[42:47] Meg: It was just for me. Okay. So they have sex, and I wrote oh, Eek. And then they'd had a conversation earlier in their friendship where he said a couple of, like, kind of cold things about how after a man has sex with a woman, he's really counting the minutes before he gets to leave the bed.

[43:09] Cynthia: Seconds.

[43:10] Meg: Seconds. And. And it's just like another example of kind of, like, guys are assholes and why do we even, like, spend time with them if they're actually thinking these things? It just felt depressing to me. And then we see it play out in real time where they do have sex after she's, you know, very vulnerable. Cause she finds out her.

[43:32] Cynthia: Joe. What is Joe.

[43:33] Meg: Joe, the soap opera star.

[43:36] Cynthia: Married.

[43:37] Meg: Is getting married after he. They broke up because he said he wasn't ever interested in getting married. And then she says the very heartbreaking thing. No, he just didn't want to get married.

[43:49] Cynthia: Yeah, she's really. I found her very sweet in this very sad. I love when she says, and I'm going to be 40, this is when.

[43:57] Meg: And she says, Sunday.

[43:59] Cynthia: I love that. But she was very sweet. And just the way she doesn't know. He's so clearly uncomfortable and I understand they had to do it for the film, but he's so clearly unhappy and she doesn't know and she's just sitting there and she's lying there in such euphoria and he's so angry and so uncomfortable. And I was just like, oh, God, it was just so uncomfortable to watch. Although I will say, surprisingly, Billy Bristol's chest looked quite appealing. I was like, what did I notice that he's growing on you? I know. They show him shirtless and I was like, hey, wait a second. He looks kind of. I was like, did they. Is this really what his chest? It looked much better than I would have expected, honestly. I will just point that out.

[44:44] Meg: It's like body double for.

[44:46] Cynthia: I know. I really think it might have been because he was like very smooth and tan and everything looked just like very.

[44:52] Meg: I was really.

[44:53] Cynthia: Huh. Anyway.

[44:55] Meg: And he was in his 30s, right?

[44:57] Cynthia: No, he was 41.

[44:58] Meg: Yeah, he was 41. No wonder he looks ridiculous in that first scene as like a 22 year old.

[45:06] Cynthia: Yeah. Or something. Did you ever watch so.

[45:10] Meg: Yes. I mean, I watch reruns because it was on too late. Right. And it was like kind of like. I mean, not that PG13 existed at the time, but it was a little racier.

[45:23] Cynthia: Yeah, right.

[45:24] Meg: Yeah.

[45:24] Cynthia: Oh, yeah. It was kind of raunchy, actually. Yeah. And he played a cross dresser.

[45:30] Meg: Oh, I didn't know that.

[45:32] Cynthia: Yes. I don't remember that vividly, but I think he played. He would wear his mother's clothes, his sister's clothes, something like that. And he was amazing. He was really funny. I mean, I think that was one of, like his first big role, if not his first. Right.

[45:46] Meg: I. I remember him more from Saturday Night Live.

[45:48] Cynthia: Right.

[45:49] Meg: And I wish I could do an impression, but I can't. Like, he had a couple of like, iconic roles.

[45:53] Cynthia: Right. Like, you look marvel.

[45:54] Meg: Yeah, you look marvelous. But I. Yeah, I just did that very poorly. But yes, he said, you look marvelous in a very amusing way that made people laugh on Saturday night. He was Very popular.

[46:06] Cynthia: And I guess he was coming off of Saturday Night Live doing this role, I think.

[46:12] Meg: But yeah, I mean, I think honestly, I'll just say I feel like that sort of thing when you're seeing him miserable. The moments after they've had sex and she's just in this blissful state, having him hold her. Clueless. I just feel like that was like a laugh line at her expense. I also felt like it was sort of a directorial. It was kind of a cheap. A cheap way to have us laugh. And maybe that's not fair. Maybe that really was a very important character building moment that we had to see. But I just felt like that was something that was like. Yeah, a cheap shot a little bit. It was just too painful.

[46:55] Cynthia: It was really painful. And she. And it goes on for quite a while. I mean, she's. And also she would have noticed. I mean, come on. But I did love her little box. Like her little file box. I don't know if you. Oh, yes. I used to have so many of those little file boxes where they would have those little cards in them and you'd have the alphabetical card that separated all the others.

[47:15] Meg: And this file box sheet alphabetized all of her videos. Yay. Yay. 80s moment.

[47:22] Cynthia: I know.

[47:22] Meg: I love.

[47:23] Cynthia: That was like. Mom was like, I love that moment. That was my favorite moment. But, yeah, that was really. Yeah. And it did go on for quite a while.

[47:29] Meg: So I have a question. Yes. About. I lost the thread towards the end. So they said if they never had a date for New Year's, that they would be each other's date for New Year's. But she says, no, I can't be your backup plan. Consolation prize. Thank you. How did he even know where she was? In order to run through the streets of New York and wind up at the exact right party that she's at alone.

[48:04] Cynthia: I think when he says, are you going to the Parker's Park? Or something like that, when he has the invitation, I think that's meant to be an indication that he would know where. Shoot, I'm gonna get.

[48:19] Meg: Okay. Thank you. Because I thought that was magical.

[48:22] Cynthia: Yeah. Yeah.

[48:23] Meg: In a way that made me go. He.

[48:27] Cynthia: You're, like, tracking it, like, really logically. You can't with this film or with any really. But yeah. Yeah. But we did skip over the phone scene. The phone. Oh, the phone. I love that scene so much. Perfect.

[48:40] Meg: Split scene.

[48:41] Cynthia: 64 takes.

[48:44] Meg: How do you even do that? Did they film it separate? They must have.

[48:47] Cynthia: I know.

[48:48] Meg: I can't believe that's Three different shots, right? You've got. So basically, after the sex scene, both of them call their best friends, who are Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby. And Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby at this point are in a very loving relationship in the same bed. And they've got their phones, two different phones next to their beds. And so they each call. So they're having simultaneous conversations.

[49:14] Cynthia: Oh, perfectly done.

[49:15] Meg: Oh, good.

[49:16] Cynthia: Perfect. Perfect. The timing was perfect.

[49:19] Meg: They're in studio.

[49:20] Cynthia: Different things.

[49:20] Meg: Yeah, they were. They had to be.

[49:22] Cynthia: I think they were, because I think they said they had to get at the very end. That was the tricky part. All the phones hanging up at the right time or something like that. And so. But just the way the dialogue is. Just the way Carrie Fisher and Bruno Gerbi are playing off of each other. Do you wanna come over? Do you wanna come over? No. No. Okay, good. You know all of that where they hear each other talking to the other person and then they're still on the phone. Oh, and then that last line of that scene, I think that's my favorite, besides Keisha's. The pest was The Keisha. The 80s. It's my favorite line when she says, please tell me I'll never have to be out there again. And he says, you'll never have to be out there again. Oh, gives me chills still.

[50:04] Meg: I know. It's so beautiful, and it's a bit of a challenge. And maybe that's why the Harry and Sally's relationship doesn't feel like the love affair of the ages. Because we just see Bruno Kirby and Carrie Fisher's, and that's actually what we want. We want to be able to go, no, honey, you can't have the Wagon Wheel coffee table in the kindest but most definitive way. And for him to finally just be like, all right, I have to get rid of the Wagon Wheel coffee table. And it's like, that's what true love is.

[50:45] Cynthia: And they meet and they know in a minute they're. They know that they like each other.

[50:49] Meg: Oh, my God. They jump into the cab. That was so great.

[50:54] Cynthia: A couple of things I noticed in the scene. One was their headboard. Now, again, I found that the furnishings were. And I studied the 80s a lot for the book that I wrote. So I know the 80s furniture. And I felt that most of the film was not, again, like, the costumes, not particularly 80s, but their headboard had that sort of Southwestern fabric on it that was very popular in the 80s.

[51:19] Meg: Yes.

[51:19] Cynthia: Santa Fe. Yes, I think.

[51:22] Meg: Yes.

[51:24] Cynthia: So I. I liked. And. And it was puffy. Which my parents had in their bedroom. Puffy wallpaper. Like, where it was like. It. It, like, stood out.

[51:34] Meg: Yeah.

[51:34] Cynthia: Stood out from the wall.

[51:35] Meg: Got dimension. Yes.

[51:37] Cynthia: Yeah. No, totally behind it. But there was also just a couple of great lines I noticed where. Where Bruno Kirby says it's like killing two birds because they were like, oh, we've always wanted you guys to do it or to get together. And he says, it's like killing two birds with one stone. And then Carrie Fisher says, it's like two wrongs make a right. It's just funny dialogue. I just thought that was just great. Like, the dialogue in this film throughout, I thought was just perfect.

[52:03] Meg: Yeah, agreed. Oh, do you think they should have gotten together?

[52:07] Cynthia: Okay. My feeling was I was of two minds. I made. I wrote a question down. I said at the end, does he really realize what he's lost, or does he just want her? Because now she's so distant? You know, that kind of like, oh, I can't have what I. You know, I can't have her now. So now I want her. Which is pretty much his character throughout the whole film. So, I mean, I want to believe it. Everyone wants to believe it. It is a great line, that last. You know, that line about when you. You figure out what you. Or whatever.

[52:38] Meg: When you know what you want for the rest of your life. I'm paraphrasing. Then you want the rest of your life to start right now.

[52:45] Cynthia: Yeah, it is. It's great.

[52:47] Meg: It's beautiful.

[52:48] Cynthia: It's perfect. Yeah. And so. Yeah. What do you think?

[52:51] Meg: You know, we grew up believing, I think, that, you know, in love at first sight and having something grow. But then once it's there, it's like, you know, the most magical wedding. And then, you know, I guess, like the fantasy. There's not a lot of fantasy in terms of relationships, except for that line, maybe at the end, or the hug as a friend. I mean, there are moments that feel like, oh, my goodness. Yes. That's really what. Yeah. Between them. That's really what I want. But maybe it's just more realistic. I mean, for him to actually just have. It's like he has a eureka moment where he's like, I've been an idiot. It's not terribly romantic, but maybe it's more realistic. Yeah. That you actually do have to sort of talk yourself into falling in love with somebody. That it's not just something that will hit you over the head. I don't know.

[53:49] Cynthia: Yeah, I don't know either. I'm thinking about all those interstitial couple conversations that happen in between the scenes, you know, with the older people.

[53:58] Meg: Oh, good point.

[53:59] Cynthia: And I'm thinking about the philosophy of. Those are basically, it was love at first sight. I mean, they're all kind of like, it was love at first. Like it was funny. We didn't, we weren't, we didn't know each other. But as soon as we saw each other, I saw her across the room, I went to talk, you know, those are all. So I'll just say I. I have tried this with a, with a friend. Where best friends for a year. Actually a year, I think year and a half. And everybody said you should get together. You guys are perfect together. You know each other. I loved him, he loved me, we know each other so well, et cetera. And that friendship ended.

[54:40] Meg: I'm sorry.

[54:41] Cynthia: No, it's okay. But I'm just saying that, I mean it was a long time ago, but that, I don't know, I got swept up in that too at that age. I don't know. I don't know. I know it's really hard to. I mean, they do. Watching this film again, I did notice a lot more planted of their seeming to be attracted to each other than I remembered.

[55:02] Meg: She definitely has moments where she's looking side eyed at him and you feel like she could have a crush on him if she decided that was okay.

[55:12] Cynthia: Yes.

[55:13] Meg: And then she backs off of it. Like when he says, you write at the museum when he says about the skirt and she's like, oh, like he notices what I wear. Like she doesn't say that, but you see it on her face and she

[55:24] Cynthia: wears it in the next scene.

[55:25] Meg: So really he's the one who's slow to the party.

[55:28] Cynthia: Right? Right. Although you see that dancing scene where they're dancing. Was it the first New Year's Eve party they go to?

[55:34] Meg: Oh yeah. They're dancing too. Right.

[55:36] Cynthia: And you see them both have that look on their face like, oh, wait a second. So I think we're supposed to see some attraction happen, growing or happening that they don't want to admit to.

[55:49] Meg: So yeah, I mean, ultimately I think the movie is saying, yes, men and women can be friends. And they could have stayed that way. They could have absolutely stayed that way. But then they can also. There is a possibility to be intimate as well and to move it into a romantic relationship. I'm not even saying that a romantic relationship is like any more important than a friendship. I wouldn't even qualify it that way. But it can transition successfully.

[56:22] Cynthia: Yeah, it's Funny when you say that, that one of the things I noticed, and I think I said this was the marriage obsession that is throughout this film, which I think was very present.

[56:33] Meg: There were all the articles, women. It was a lie.

[56:37] Cynthia: You're more likely to be killed by a terrorist after 40 than get married.

[56:42] Meg: Yeah. And New York magazine was definitely showing can women have it all. The answer is no. So get that out of your head because you're not gonna be able to have. Have you frozen your eggs yet. There was just all of this, like, anxiety.

[56:59] Cynthia: Yeah. About getting married and marriage being the ultimate goal. I thought it was. Oh, this is gonna sound mean. But Alice, that character who's married the one friend that when they have the three friends, you know, they have Sally and the Carrie, Fisher, Marie and then Alice.

[57:15] Meg: This is at the boathouse. Yes, yes.

[57:17] Cynthia: So Alice's husband we see at the end. And I was like, he's no pride. And she's so proud about being married. And I'm like, what?

[57:26] Meg: Maybe you should have wait a first.

[57:28] Cynthia: That sounds so mean. I looked him up because I'm like, who was that guy? I couldn't find him anywhere. I think he was like. That was like the one thing he appeared in. But I was like, everyone wants to be married. It was such a thing back then. You know, in the 80s particular. Like, that was the happy end. Maybe it still is. That's always. Maybe it's the rom com ending, the happy ending of marriage. So, you know, we had to see Harry and Sally. It couldn't just be they have a relationship or whatever. It had to be like we had a wedding. Wedding, wedding, wedding. Right.

[57:56] Meg: Not too many years later, we get my best friend's wedding, which I haven't seen in ages. But my memory of that is she wants to break up the wedding of her best friend. But in the end they just stay friends.

[58:11] Cynthia: Yeah.

[58:11] Meg: Right. So it's sort of the flip of it.

[58:14] Cynthia: Right. No.

[58:15] Meg: Maybe the 90s brought us the answer to this. That men and women can just be friends.

[58:20] Cynthia: Yeah. I think the 90s was much more open to that riot. Girls and women, you know, sort of. What do they call it? Second wave feminist or third wave feminist. You know, whatever it was. I feel like the 90s started that. Then of course, it all went back right to the way it had been working.

[58:37] Meg: Because we can't have nice things or

[58:39] Cynthia: we find ourselves now.

[58:40] Meg: Yeah.

[58:40] Cynthia: Trad wives and stuff. But.

[58:42] Meg: Oh, my God.

[58:43] Cynthia: Yeah. It was interesting to see that and just remember, you know. Cause I was younger, but I definitely came of age in the 80s and to be reminded of that. That was what that was like then, you know, about the terrorists and you know, you better get married and women are supposed to be home and all. You know what the terrible satanic rituals that happen to children if their mothers them in daycare. You know, just all of that from the 80s was interesting to see again. Or to be reminded of.

[59:13] Meg: Yeah, I mean, some of my favorite rom coms are rom coms from the 40s, but it is a completely different formula. And I think people talk about When Harry Met Sally as sort of being the beginning of the modern rom com. And we certainly, you know, if we put like Pretty Woman into that category, like what's. What's another fun one. What about Moonstruck? We talked about maybe talking about Moonstruck. I haven't seen that in forever.

[59:39] Cynthia: I love Moonstruck.

[59:41] Meg: I think I need to watch that next.

[59:43] Cynthia: I mean, I am at like old school, die Hard, Nicolas Cage fan, so.

[59:49] Meg: Oh, right. You wanted to talk about Valley Girl.

[59:52] Cynthia: Oh my God.

[59:53] Meg: Favorite.

[59:54] Cynthia: I love Nicolas Cage. So much so. And he's so, again, very over the top film. But he's so good in that movie. My favorite rom com, I think was in the 90s was. I don't know if I consider. No, it's a Romco. While you were sleeping. Oh, I love that. Sandra. Sandra Bullock and Bill Pullman.

[01:00:16] Meg: She's in a coma.

[01:00:17] Cynthia: He's in a coma's in a coma. But she falls for his brother and she's so adorable and lonely and then she gets taken in by this family. I'm sure it was all part of my own fantasy, but I love, love, love that one. Be interesting again. Be interesting to see it again and see how it looks from this vantage point. What about you? Besides the forties, any more recent?

[01:00:39] Meg: I definitely love the ones and maybe because this is the podcast and I feel like I need to be killing two birds with one stone all the time. So if it's not based in New York, I'm wasting my time. That's awful. But I would. I really do like sort of revisiting things and going, oh my God. Because you have flashbacks to what you were thinking at the time and that's sort of fun.

[01:01:02] Cynthia: So I would love.

[01:01:03] Meg: I haven't seen Big in ages. I haven't seen. I would love to see Heartburn again. Even though it's so sad, but it's empowering at the end.

[01:01:12] Cynthia: I don't really remember the end even. I just read the book.

[01:01:15] Meg: She gets even that's oh, right, right.

[01:01:17] Cynthia: Okay. Well, there you go. Yeah. You know the thing, I will say what I have noticed, and maybe it's because I was younger when I first watched those films, but I even watched a clip again. I think I told you a big. And. And I expected to be like, oh, my God, this is ridiculous. And it's like child porn or whatever, you know, some awful thing. And I was, like, completely mesmerized. I loved it. I was delighted by it. I saw the scene in FAO Schwartz where they're jumping on the piano, and I was like, this is the greatest thing. So there's something magical either about the films themselves or about having been younger when watching it. I'm not sure what it is. It's hard to separate.

[01:01:54] Meg: And the backdrop, I mean, you're also talking about. Yeah, yeah. Iconic New York places. Well, everybody, if you think about it, please, like, write in on the Instagram or, you know, text us or whatever and let us know if you're watching any rom coms in New York based. Specifically based in New York City. Just because I think it's also kind of a fall thing to do. Maybe like this back to school sort of energy of. All right. It's a new beginning.

[01:02:27] Cynthia: Yes. Yes. Made me want to go back to Central park and walk in the orange leaves.

[01:02:33] Meg: Definitely. Thank you so much. This has been delightful.

[01:02:39] Cynthia: Oh, thank you. I enjoyed myself so much.

[01:02:41] Meg: I.

[01:02:42] Cynthia: This was so much fun to talk about. Anytime you want to talk about another one, just let me know. Absolutely.

[01:02:48] Meg: I could do this all day, apparently.

[01:02:50] Cynthia: Serious.

[01:02:52] Meg: Thank you. This is so easy.

[01:02:55] Cynthia: It.