[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we

[00:28] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:32] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: So different location.

[00:36] Jessica: Can we just talk about the fact that I'm on a booster seat? I want to get that out of the way right now. I tried to find a phone book. They don't exist anymore.

[00:44] Meg: Oh, that's true. I know.

[00:47] Jessica: Directory assistance. So, yeah, I thank you. Thank you for putting me on a big cushion so I could be the

[00:54] Meg: standard so that we can see your face. Thank you for this very special episode that we are filming.

[01:00] Jessica: Yes.

[01:00] Meg: So that we can have assets and little clips and share them on the YouTube.

[01:06] Jessica: I just want to have you saying, so we can have assets, like, I don't know, in something, like, on my phone. Is that like. I want to wake up every day with you saying, we have assets. Cool. And you look lovely. I love your earrings. Thank you. Well, you said camera ready, and, you know, I get nervous if I don't do what you tell me to, so.

[01:26] Meg: And we turned off the air conditioning,

[01:29] Jessica: which is a huge, I don't know, just contribution to this podcast. Exactly. Cause it's 9,000 degrees out new York City.

[01:39] Meg: Summer, before we get started, I saw three things that I wanted to share with you this week.

[01:46] Jessica: Are they roach, pigeon, or rat related?

[01:49] Meg: No.

[01:49] Jessica: Okay.

[01:50] Meg: I saw an article about how standing in line is becoming trendy again.

[01:56] Jessica: Ugh.

[01:57] Meg: I think that's hysterical.

[02:00] Jessica: Can. Okay, before I get ballistic. Why? What's trendy about.

[02:05] Meg: It's like, for the perfect croissant or the perfect gelato. Like, people want to stand in line for something that they have been told is super special. And then our youth, we had to stand in line. I mean, you couldn't even get movie tickets ahead of time. You actually had to stand in line to see the movie that you were going to see that evening. So you would show up, you know, if it was a really popular movie and it had just been released, you would have to show up, like, an hour in advance. Why are you looking at me that way?

[02:33] Jessica: No, no, no, no. Because you made me think of. And I know we're not supposed to talk about Woody Allen, but there's a great scene in Annie hall where they're having the conversation about Marshall McCluhan online, waiting for the movies, and he steps out of line and is like, Actually, that's not what I meant at all. So, yeah, standing on line. But I don't know. I don't. I don't buy the whole again because, like, I live right near Lexington. Candy shop on 83rd and Lex. There are lines there now all the time. There's lines outside of Bonbon Swedish Candy on Lexington.

[03:10] Meg: That's what I'm saying. It's coming back.

[03:13] Jessica: I guess what. What I'm saying is, for the last two years, this has been going on

[03:18] Meg: and that people enjoy it. No, they enjoy it. It's part of the New York experience.

[03:22] Jessica: I know why they like it, because they can't do it on their phones. But it's community. It's a sense of community.

[03:29] Meg: There you go.

[03:30] Jessica: They can actually meet people online for something that they like, they have in common.

[03:36] Meg: Sample sales. I don't know, all that kind of stuff.

[03:38] Jessica: Sample sales. Back.

[03:39] Meg: Sample sales are back. And people wrap around the block.

[03:43] Jessica: Wait, Meg, is it the 90s? Where are we?

[03:47] Meg: So all the things that people thought they got rid of, you got rid of lines when you got the phones? Because now you just order something and it shows up. You don't have to stand in line, wait for it. That is not true. Some things you do have to wait for.

[03:59] Jessica: Although, you know my policy about waiting on lines.

[04:02] Meg: Which is.

[04:03] Jessica: Which is, we live in New York City. There's no reason to ever wait on a line. There's always something better or as good right around the corner. So don't get upset about that.

[04:12] Meg: You are not part of this trend, then. Clearly. No.

[04:15] Jessica: One of my favorite phrases that I've learned recently, and there have been other variations that I've heard, but you get what you get and you don't get upset. So line doesn't work too long. Go get a croissant four blocks away and then bitch about how you don't like it as much on your Instagram or whatever.

[04:31] Meg: Yeah, it's interesting. I'm going to try one of the lines. I. I'm a little wary that anything is worth it, but maybe I'll just. I don't know. I'll just see.

[04:40] Jessica: I would stand online for a movie, though. That is the one thing I would do.

[04:44] Meg: I also saw an article. This is so exciting. You know how we were talking about sheds?

[04:50] Jessica: Yeah.

[04:51] Meg: And how Giuliani made the sheds. You know, but we talked about all the awful, awful things about sheds.

[04:58] Jessica: Yes. And scaffolding.

[05:00] Meg: And scaffolding. Guess what?

[05:02] Jessica: Is there a new law?

[05:04] Meg: No, But, Mom, Donnie is going to paint the sheds and Redesign the sheds so they're attractive.

[05:13] Jessica: All right, this is putting. This is good news. This is putting lipstick on a pig.

[05:18] Meg: Well, we know that we have to have sheds because of the falling masonry. We discussed that. All right, so if you have to have a shed, make it pretty.

[05:29] Jessica: You know what this is like, what Reference episode, whatever it was when you talked about putting the decals on the buildings in Queensland.

[05:36] Meg: Oh, maybe. Yeah, maybe.

[05:38] Jessica: I'm feeling it. Lipstick on a pig. I'm just saying.

[05:42] Meg: Okay, well, let's see.

[05:42] Jessica: And by the way. And who's paying for it?

[05:45] Meg: You are so grumpy today. I'm not.

[05:47] Jessica: I'm pragmatic. I'm pragmatic. I want to know if my taxpayer dollars are going to something. Is it like food pantries or painting a shed?

[05:58] Meg: It's also redesign. Like, they look better.

[06:00] Jessica: Okay, where can I see that? I'll show you during our break or whatever. Can you show me? Okay.

[06:05] Meg: Yeah, I see.

[06:06] Jessica: I'm genuinely interest. I'm not trying to be crusty about it. I just, you know. All right.

[06:13] Meg: And then the last thing I was going to talk about was I went to the ear in this week.

[06:18] Jessica: Aw, you went to the ear in with whom?

[06:21] Meg: And it was. I did a reading of a play, a new play. And after the reading, somebody who came to see the reading said, oh, I'm going to go to a Love island watch party at the ear end. Do you guys want to come? And we did.

[06:36] Jessica: And you were like, reality tv. My favorite thing on the planet.

[06:40] Meg: It was the finale of Love Island.

[06:43] Jessica: Did they all find love?

[06:45] Meg: Sure.

[06:46] Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. By love, you mean empty, meaningless sex? Yes, absolutely.

[06:50] Meg: Never watched it?

[06:51] Jessica: No, no, I don't know.

[06:53] Meg: So you cannot comment. I was gonna send you a bunch of comments.

[06:55] Jessica: What, I can't comment? Give me a break, please.

[07:01] Meg: All right, let's dive in, because we have been holding back from talking about what we're gonna talk about today.

[07:08] Jessica: To one another.

[07:08] Meg: Yes, to one another. Because we wanna save it for the podcast. So now the time has come.

[07:13] Jessica: Let's do it.

[07:23] Meg: I believe it was our very first episode.

[07:26] Jessica: Our very, very first episode.

[07:27] Meg: Jessica talked about Channel J and the Robin Bird Show. You want to give us a little primer on Robin Bird? Basically, there's a documentary out right now that everybody is watching, and it's a documentary about Robin Bird and her show on cable access, Least Access. And maybe you want to explain what Least Access is, because that's at the

[07:52] Jessica: beginning of the documentary. So the documentary is called Baby, let me bang your box so bang your box.

[07:59] Meg: Bang your box.

[08:00] Jessica: Interestingly, it was produced by Sarah Jessica Parker's company. Pretty matches. Hmm. And unlikely pairing in my mind. But also, she is a New Yorker. She's a New Yorker, so who knows? But it's about Robin Bird, who I talked about in the first episode. How, you know, at the age of. I don't know, like, too young, 10, whatever. slumber parties, we would have one kid stationed at the cable box because there was no remote for it. We'd all watch Channel J, which had Midnight Blue, Robin Bird, all of this weirdo sex, like talk shows, if you can imagine that.

[08:40] Meg: And most of them were, like, fat guys in Jacuzzis and naked ladies next to them. I mean, it was. It was not. It was not attractive.

[08:51] Jessica: This. This. The late 70s were still the land of EW. It was just generally EW.

[08:56] Meg: But it was, you know, sex positive, which. I don't know if that was a term then.

[09:00] Jessica: Definitely not.

[09:01] Meg: But these people weren't really working out, and there was no grooming happening. But they wanted to show the world what they look like in their altogether.

[09:11] Jessica: Yes. And I mean, admittedly, the reasoning behind Al Goldstein and Midnight Blue is quite different than Robin Byrd, which we'll get to. Yes, but that was my introduction. I'm. I think, yours as well.

[09:25] Meg: Channel J.

[09:26] Jessica: You had furtively, you know, try to check it out. And Robin Bird had this show. She always had the same outfit. She was in a crocheted, spangled black bikini. And she would say, sit back, relax, you know, hug your loved one if you have one. If you don't, you have me. And then she would talk about sex, and she would talk about whatever she was into. And then she would have dancers from the adult strip joints on 42nd Street.

[09:57] Meg: Adult sex industry.

[09:59] Jessica: Right. And that was all.

[10:01] Meg: And they would dance, too. There was a lot of naked dancing

[10:04] Jessica: men and women, which is important for the movie that we were talking about, because it started off as just women. And then she started bringing men on for a particular reason, which is totally interesting to me. But anyway, my understanding of it and what I talked about on the first episode was that this was just another person in the lineup of, you know, salacious boobs, butts and dicks that we were able to see as kids, you know, sort of both horrified and fascinated and transfixed. And so going into watching this documentary, that was my vision of Robin Byrne. Like, benign, very sweet, but just the same as all the others.

[10:49] Meg: And that is not the case. She was very different from all the others.

[10:54] Jessica: Please Because I've now. I've now given my whole exegesis on what that scene was.

[11:00] Meg: In the documentary, they talk about the early days where she. I think she was a guest for somebody else's show. Right.

[11:08] Jessica: You asked me to describe least access. Yeah. Okay. So everything that we're talking about, they talk about in the documentary, and you can get more information about it. But in 1978, I think getting your TV from, you know, your antenna on top of your TV network, broadcasting from an aerial as. As though you would have a radio. There's no wires or anything like that. That changed because of cable. And they ran cables underneath the streets of New York City, and those cables got routed up into the buildings and into a cable box. And the cable was now what was delivering your television to do this? I think it was FCC regulation that if they were going to do this because the streets were a public byway, they had to make the cable accessible to the public. And that was literally cable access. Right.

[12:01] Meg: So democratic. It's like, yes, the streets are ours. It shouldn't just be for commercial use, basically.

[12:08] Jessica: Absolutely.

[12:09] Meg: We should have a right to broadcast whatever we want to broadcast as well.

[12:14] Jessica: I would love to know actually who brought that up in the first place, because there's no way that, you know, Manhattan Cable Company, which is the precursor to all the stuff we have now, that they were just like, hey, give it to the folks. Like, I can't imagine that that was going on.

[12:29] Meg: Somebody must have made a stink. Let's look that up. Some ACLU adjacent person said, wait a second.

[12:37] Jessica: Ron Kuby, remember him?

[12:39] Meg: I do.

[12:40] Jessica: With a ponytail. Yes, I do. Instantly, there was a flood of average people. They. They were not average at all.

[12:47] Meg: They were.

[12:47] Jessica: They were. They were quite unusual. And some of them charmingly and some of them somewhat disturbingly but always kind of entertaining. You were talking about Love Island. This was the ultimate reality tv because you'd have like, Joe Schmo from the Bronx who is like, I'm going to play the piano with the photograph of my mother on it and take calls while I'm still playing the piano. And, you know, instant interaction. It was just wackadoo.

[13:18] Meg: Well, and that's the other thing that started happening is what you were watching was live.

[13:23] Jessica: You could tape and then tape it. You were if. But if you taped it, you were broadcasting it live. You were broadcasting the taping live.

[13:31] Meg: But what was cool, that was like mind blowing at the time, was that people at home could call and you would watch the person pick up your call. And you would be talking to the TV at the same time that you were talking on the phone. I mean, that's crazy.

[13:49] Jessica: Like, what futuristic, like, excitement is this?

[13:53] Meg: So Robyn Bird would take phone calls?

[13:56] Jessica: Robin Byrd. She had a really not easy early life.

[14:01] Meg: Heartbreaking.

[14:02] Jessica: Very. You wanna talk about that?

[14:04] Meg: I want people to watch the documentary. So I don't think we should go, like, frame by frame, you know? But I think my big takeaway was she was adopted and not a happy family. Her father died when she was young, and her adoptive mother didn't seem to like her very much and said awful things to her about how she was ugly and unlovable. And so when she did eventually run away from home and live in Central park for a while, that's when she discovered she was beautiful.

[14:34] Jessica: She had a girlfriend. And the girlfriend. Yeah, she lived with the girlfriend of the family.

[14:38] Meg: She moved very easily into the adult sex industry. Is that the right term for it?

[14:46] Jessica: I think so.

[14:46] Meg: Adult entertainment. Adult entertainment. She went to SVA and she was nude modeling.

[14:52] Jessica: That was it. That's how. That was the thin edge of the wedge. She went to SVA to get her degree after she got a dcu. Yeah. No, I. Did you say no? I thought you said sva.

[15:00] Meg: And so she was nude modeling. And then somebody said, well, if you're comfortable with that, then there's a beauty contest for naked people.

[15:09] Jessica: Very 70s.

[15:10] Meg: Yeah. I don't even know how she did.

[15:13] Jessica: I think she. She ranked.

[15:15] Meg: She ranked anyway. And so then. Then there was the next step after that where she really loved orgies. So she would go to Plato's Retreat because she loved to have sex with a lot of people. She knew that about herself.

[15:27] Jessica: Which is one of the places that Elle Goldstein would film Midnight Blue.

[15:31] Meg: True. In the Jacuzzi.

[15:34] Jessica: Soupy.

[15:35] Meg: God, don't even. Okay, so she's doing that. And she realized when she was doing these orgies at Plato's Retreat, she was like, oh, wait, you're a famous adult film star and I'm having sex with you. But you get paid to do this, and I'm just doing this for fun. Maybe I should get paid to do it. Anyway, it was a very easy transition that didn't involve a lot of, like, stress on her part.

[16:02] Jessica: Yeah. She seemed from that early age, actually be as body positive as she then preached later.

[16:10] Meg: And one thing that I thought about with that story was if you have no family and you have friends who are all affirming what you're doing naturally, I mean, she wasn't doing it because she didn't like herself. She was doing it because she liked herself.

[16:27] Jessica: Well, I think that as she was

[16:28] Meg: doing story than you would think.

[16:30] Jessica: Yeah. I think that also doing the nude modeling, and then each time that she did something where she exposed herself. Oh, and I don't mean just her body, her nudity, like her whole being, she got accolades for it. So it's a very quick turnaround from the bad messaging that her adoptive mother gave her. And she was so young. It wasn't all gelled yet. Like, she was still young enough to have a new point of view that became genuine, natural.

[17:04] Meg: And the way she talks about it, you. I found myself going, like, well, why do I associate shame with the sex industry? Like, why? Well, I think it probably. My parents told me that she doesn't have a family, so she doesn't have anyone to feel shame in front of.

[17:18] Jessica: Well, I think there's another piece of it, though, which is our point of view was, you know, like 15 years after her.

[17:27] Meg: Right. Because she's 15 years older than we are.

[17:30] Jessica: Right. There was much more that we knew about the sex industry, which had become huge by the time we were teenagers because of the video rental business. When she was doing it, it was movies that you would only go to on 42nd street or, you know, stag films, whatever, but you had to seek it out. Like, it wasn't something that was really an industry in the same way. And the minute that anything is an industry and there's so much money to be made, there's exploitation in a really different way. So I think that, you know, I think that, of course our parents were not like, go and be a hooker. But, you know, not that she was certainly our milieu was not go do this. But I think there's also. She talks a lot about the fun and joy of sex in the 70s, because that was when women started taking the pill and sex was now accessible to women.

[18:29] Meg: Pre aids.

[18:30] Jessica: Right.

[18:31] Meg: They talked about, post Stonewall, pre aids,

[18:34] Jessica: a golden era of doing whatever. Yeah.

[18:39] Meg: So basically you're saying when she joined the sex industry, it was also new and therefore maybe not as skeezy as it became by the time that we were her age, where it'd be, like, unheard of.

[18:54] Jessica: Absolutely. But also, I mean, not to really overstate the obvious, but we came from a highly structured, you know, social world. We were not making it on our own at 16. And I have known people who I think I've talked about on this podcast who were out on the street at 15 or 16. And for a Girl, that is the fastest way to make money. That's just a fact. But not only was she early in the adult film industry, but she was also. And I think this is what's really interesting about her, that she was also a front runner with cable access and with broadcasting and all of that stuff.

[19:39] Meg: She's getting to all these industries rather early. So she's doing her cable access show, and she is the star, she is the writer, she is the producer, she is the director. She's got people who are helping her, but the way she talks about it, they.

[19:58] Jessica: They're kind of like misfits. Yeah, well, and the way that she started doing it was that some guy, and this is what I really like, some guy who she knew lost his on air talent. The show was called Hot Legs. He had an, I don't know, a moderator, an emcee, a host, and she couldn't do it. And so he knew Robin from, like, Plato's Retreat or whatever and asked her to step in, and she did. And then. And this just back to my obsession with the whole FCC thing and how these things were made. He just decided that he wasn't gonna pay the studio that he was using to do his show. And so they instantly shut him down. And this is what's sort of weird to me. She just stepped in. I was like, did he take his stuff? Like, did he just say, okay, I guess that's over? But all of the equipment was still there.

[20:53] Meg: Right. People had told her a few things. Don't have red on camera. Don't have black on camera. White or white on camera. Ooh, look at us.

[21:03] Jessica: I know.

[21:04] Meg: Trend setting.

[21:05] Jessica: Ha ha.

[21:05] Meg: And so she did all that stuff. She had a red background and she had a black crochet bikini. I mean, so she.

[21:12] Jessica: And white nails.

[21:13] Meg: And white nails.

[21:14] Jessica: So, yeah, she.

[21:14] Meg: She was like, don't tell me what

[21:16] Jessica: to do very much so. Yeah, charmingly, at this point in the documentary, I'm like, okay, this is really what I expected. And they go on to talk about how she would go to the strip clubs and sex show places on 42nd street and find the talent who would come on the show and dance around and whatever. And she started with women only, and then she realized that there was a huge market that she was very open to. She had no problem at all with this demographic. And why not bring in the gay guys who were dancing for men on 42nd Street?

[22:00] Meg: Strip clubs were right next to the heterosexual strip clubs. And in one case, they were talking about how there was like a door so men who didn't want to be seen going into the gay strip club could go into the straight strip club and then go through the door, and nobody would have known that they were actually there to see men. So, yeah, she was friends with the male dancers, too. And I think she said that at one point she had a PA or somebody who was helping her with her show who was homophobic, and she was like, bye.

[22:34] Jessica: I'm like, I know.

[22:35] Meg: She says that a couple times.

[22:36] Jessica: She's very cute.

[22:37] Meg: And she's still got. She always had these bangs. She had, like, a blonde sort of. Do you call that a shag? Shag? And these bangs. And she still does. She still has those bangs, but now she wears her hair up in this little knot on the top of her head. She's so cute. And this is when we're going to get into really, truly the heart of the documentary that you have to see in order to truly understand it. She met this man, Shelley, when she was 19.

[23:08] Jessica: So this is early. Early when all of this was happening.

[23:12] Meg: And he loved her and everything that she was about and was her biggest fan. And they fell in love, and.

[23:22] Jessica: And he was like a big ad executive. He wasn't a fringe person. Shelly was like a macher, a mover and a shaker, and he was just like that kid. I like that kid.

[23:33] Meg: But that didn't mean that she stopped doing orgies. In fact, he filmed her doing orgies. Yeah. So he was just. He was all in on Robyn.

[23:41] Jessica: Yeah, she was. And she.

[23:42] Meg: And what she says at one point, because she is bisexual, I'm not sure she actually says that out loud, but she does say that she had relationships with men and women. And at some point she says, he was the woman I always wanted to marry.

[23:57] Jessica: Yes, it was. I'm like, okay. It's one way to say that he's a sensitive man.

[24:01] Meg: Yeah.

[24:02] Jessica: So with what you're saying, running behind

[24:04] Meg: her with the equipment and the tapes and just, like, fully supporting her and just getting a.

[24:10] Jessica: Getting a kick out of her, like,

[24:12] Meg: that was the thing so much.

[24:14] Jessica: Yeah.

[24:15] Meg: There was still together.

[24:16] Jessica: He wasn't doing anything in spite of her. It was. Look at what I lucked into, which is how everyone's partner should be about them. Look. Look at what I lucked into. So what you were starting to talk about that I really want to jump on, is that the documentary eases you into it, particularly if you already think you know about her. So it takes you down this road where you're like, oh, that's how that thing happened, or that thing happened, and then it takes a left turn at Albuquerque. And all of the heart behind who she was then and still is why she did what she did, why she continued to do. And this is the thing that. Where I was sobbing watching it, why she continued to do what she did, and ultimately where she is now and the importance of what she did. We get introduced to her, a adorable

[25:10] Meg: Shelly who is having some dementia issues.

[25:14] Jessica: Now.

[25:14] Meg: Now she does tell us, she tells the camera, that Shelly isn't the old Shelly, that he. He's. He's different now that he has a bit of dementia. The way she talks to him, the way they talk to each other is so loving, so gentle. It's just.

[25:35] Jessica: That's a perfect word, you know, so

[25:37] Meg: you can see every once in a while, you can see that she's. She wishes he could walk further with her. She just wishes he could be the man that she's, you know, fell in love with. But she still, obviously will spend every minute she has with the man he is now.

[25:53] Jessica: He is still who he is, no matter if he's altered or not. Like, she's clearly someone who understands you're in it. If you're in it, you're in it. That's it. You don't stop loving someone because they're a little gaga. They are still who they are. It was sweet, sweet shot. So on this podcast, we talk a lot about how AIDS shaped the 80s. And as this podcast has gone on and on and on the topics that we've touched on, I think we have become more aware of how AIDS shaped everything. And so our treatment of it, as we move through different subject matters, we wind up returning to AIDS over and over again. And when the wheel, not the wheels fell off for me, but where I really started to lose it. And I was watching it with Will, and he's just looking at me and I'm like, sobbing. And I'm like, why aren't you crying? And he's like, it's very touching. I'm like, why aren't you crying? You know what? She started doing this in the very late 70s, and then it's really picking up momentum. And in 1982, AIDS, unknown as that, you know, starts to be in the news. And the minute that she sees that this is a. In quotes, gay cancer, she has this sense of community with the gay world of New York City. And she takes responsibility in this extraordinary way. Like, what would make anybody just decide to stand up and use their platform for something that on the Surface has nothing to do with them.

[27:41] Meg: But actually did she already had fans who were gay. The gay community had already discovered her. And I think they said that at Julius', they showed the show live. So people would even call in from Julius's, which is a very famous gay bar in the West Village.

[27:59] Jessica: It's been around since the Village began.

[28:02] Meg: Yes, since the Village began. And so she already had that fan base. And then when those men started to die and also started to not have sex anymore, see, that was a really big deal. So they, in order to protect themselves, like, their entire, you know, sex lives changed radically. And she realized that she could be the person that they snuggle with at night when they were all alone because they were too scared to have sex anymore.

[28:33] Jessica: And also because they were. Their partners were dying, Their friends and partners who might have been watching the show with them in the past were dead. And so just needing company, full stop, I think, was one of the things that. That really hit me.

[28:50] Meg: Yeah. And there's a scene where a couple of men talk about how they were walking through the West Village, and they look up and there's just red lights on in all the windows. And they were like, what is that about? And everyone's like, oh, everybody's watching the Robin Bird show, obviously.

[29:08] Jessica: Didn't you love that?

[29:09] Meg: Oh, I loved it. And also, that's. Is like, shows happened live. Like, that doesn't work. You had to be streaming.

[29:18] Jessica: You had to go home.

[29:19] Meg: You had to go home and watch the show, turn on the TV in order to see the show. Fortunately, though, she has tapes of everything. So she has an archive, because otherwise it would have just been gone in the ether.

[29:33] Jessica: Yeah. So, like, the. The film has very distinct parts. There's how she began. There's, you know, how it sort of got rolling. There's her whole relationship with Shelley, which carries throughout the movie. And there's also this.

[29:54] Meg: Her activism.

[29:55] Jessica: Yes, her activism. And what were you just talking about? And I just lost my train of thought, because that's what happens. The archive, the archives. That's. The thing is really the bookend to how she began is, you know, once you've been an activist. But no one thinks of you as an activist. If you have created all of this material, all of a record, also of a time, but you don't see yourself that way. You're just in it and doing the thing that you do. At what point does someone say, hey, wait a minute, this is worth saving? And do you look at yourself and say, you know what? I made Something happen. And watch. And what happens in the film is that you watch that happen in front of the camera.

[30:42] Meg: Right. She lives in a tiny apartment with all of these videotapes, and you can't even find a videotape player anymore. So what is she going to do with all of this? And Shelly is like, those are our babies. You can't give our babies away to somebody. I mean, the idea of, you know, having a library or. Or saving the archive doesn't seem to be something that he. He's on board with. And she's never going to do anything that he doesn't want her to do, even though she so clearly wears the pants in the family.

[31:15] Jessica: Yeah.

[31:16] Meg: But part of it is just being gentle enough with Shelley to let him get there. To get. Yeah. So that he realizes, well, I don't want to spoil it, but the videotapes are saved.

[31:28] Jessica: And the arch. Wasn't the archivist a little weird?

[31:30] Meg: He was a little like, well, we'll see whether this is worth saving. And it's like, oh, dude.

[31:36] Jessica: Like, you don't know what you're. Yeah. You have no idea what you're dealing with. But he had a strange affect. So I'm just flagging that. If you do see it, it's not that he's bad. He's perfectly fine. But I was so fixated, like, I couldn't tear my eyes away because he was just odd enough. And I was like, if you're. If you're the odd one in a room with Robin, Bird and Shelly, like, you're odd. Like, just. Let's just say what. It is peculiar.

[32:03] Meg: And she was also an activist when. As the 80s roll around, we know, the Moral Majority comes to town and they decided that what she was doing was obscene, and they were going to take her off the air, and she wasn't having it. And she sued Manhattan Cable Company.

[32:27] Jessica: They. They were going to. Not just take her off the air. They were. It was like you had to opt in to get her. That was the thing. Like, you had to take the extra step. And we all know that that's where you lose everybody. But it was. It was a way for them to censor her without censoring her. And yet her lawsuit was a First Amendment. They. They didn't fool anybody.

[32:54] Meg: This. It goes to the Supreme Court and whoever the justice was who spoke about it.

[32:59] Jessica: Briar. Briar.

[33:00] Meg: What did he say that like, oh, I loved it.

[33:03] Jessica: Nudity.

[33:04] Meg: You can't take something away from grownups just because it's not appropriate. For children.

[33:09] Jessica: So that's what the Moral Majority's battle cry always was. It was, save the children. God forbid this happened. Because what if the children see it? And it was always ridiculous because they were painting a universe where everything had to be Elmo. And by the way, these people were, like, going home and fucking the doll. Exactly like these people.

[33:28] Meg: The grossest people alive.

[33:30] Jessica: Vile.

[33:31] Meg: Telling the entire country that everything had to be G rated.

[33:35] Jessica: And Briar was like, not so fast. Not really. Also of interest, I want to know why they didn't talk about it. But I think it was around the same time that Larry Flynt was having his successful First Amendment lawsuit in front of the Supreme Court. And his thing was with the post office, I think, because they wouldn't put the Hustler in the mail. Oh, you know, do see this documentary. But the People versus Larry Flint is a fantastic, fabulous movie. It really is tour de force for Woody Harrelson and Courtney Love. Let's not, you know, count her out. But totally the same suit. So I just thought it was kind of interesting that it wasn't mentioned Robin

[34:18] Meg: Byrd joined forces not with Larry Flynt, but with Al Goldstein. Right?

[34:24] Jessica: Yes. That was. So it wasn't just her in this. It was a class action against Manhattan Cable. So it was her and Goldstein and. Who was the other one?

[34:34] Meg: Lou Maletta. Al Goldstein and Lou Maletta and those guys. What's so interesting is that her show, like we talked about before, was just so different from what those guys were doing. Those guys, those shows really were rather sleazy. I'm just gonna say rather. Rather. And did not treat the ladies very well. And Robin Byrd's show was just a completely different vibe. But they all had this in common that they did not want to be censored. We should talk about how she ended up making money. Because here she's doing this just because of the passion. It's a passion project. But then she figures out how to be a businesswoman as well.

[35:15] Jessica: I think it was in la, either or that this woman was working or whatever. But this woman, she was the first one with a 900 number.

[35:23] Meg: Betsy Superfon was her name.

[35:26] Jessica: Wasn't it super fun?

[35:27] Meg: I think that was like superfan.

[35:28] Jessica: Really?

[35:29] Meg: I think so. She had a phone number. 970 girl. And so then Robin Byrd was like, hmm, maybe I could do that. And so she did nine seven zero, Bird.

[35:43] Jessica: And that was really the beginning of another thing that young people probably don't know about, which was Colin, Colin's psychic, Colin Tarot. Colin sex.

[35:57] Meg: Call in, call weather.

[35:58] Jessica: Yeah, call in anything. And these people monetized it. If you could get a 970-area-code, that was the code for a pay per call, and you could take the credit card number from the caller, and then however many minutes you racked up talking, they would then charge the card. So beyond Warwick being a very famous

[36:19] Meg: part of this, Robin Byrd started sex phone business. So she would advertise it on her. She was like, I've got my. All my girls are ready to talk to you whenever you want to call in. And then people were charged by the

[36:32] Jessica: minute in much the same way that now people are always talking about, oh, I have a platform. Why am I not talking about X, Y, Z? She realized she had this incredible platform and an audience that was already proven and completely dedicated to her. And she did phone lines for gay and straight sex and trans.

[36:52] Meg: She has special line for trans, although,

[36:54] Jessica: how would you know? I'm just.

[36:57] Meg: I think she's an honest person. I.

[36:59] Jessica: God bless her, I think she is. I'm ju. I'm just, you know, if she says

[37:03] Meg: that the person on the other end of the line is trans, then I think we can trust that that is the case. I know we can't say the last scene of this incredible documentary because it has to be experienced to be truly, truly appreciated. But I just want to say, I'll set it up this way. In her heyday, in her 20s, 30s, 40s, amazing body, all, you know, body positivity.

[37:32] Jessica: And she's always into exercising. She makes a big point.

[37:35] Meg: Yeah, she exercised on the show. She like did like bodybuilding and stuff on the show. And now she's a 69, 70 year old woman. And she doesn't say bad things about herself. I really appreciate that. But sometimes she's like, ugh, I. When I had a great ass. So she doesn't say she has a badass now, but she does say I used to have a great ass. So that you just get little hints that maybe she doesn't love the current body as much as she loved her body in her 20s, very early youth. Yes.

[38:11] Jessica: She talks about how she saw this house on Fire island that she loved and she would go to Fire island because she was already so embraced by the gay community. It makes. No, it's. It's no surprise that she winds up spending a lot of time in the Pines in Cherry Grove. And so she sees this house, she and Shelley, and you know, lo and behold, the stars align and she's able to. It's a Massive, massive, beautiful house in, I think in Cherry Grove. You know, she's got her gaze and she's walking around and all the boys are in drag or in spangled outfits and they're all on their way to one of the tea dances. And now to you.

[38:52] Meg: All I'm saying is that if you watch this documentary, the payoff at the end of this beautiful, beautiful story.

[39:00] Jessica: It's so sweet, is it's adorable, really.

[39:03] Meg: About reclaiming her story, understanding her importance in history and also reminding herself to love herself. Is that fair to say?

[39:14] Jessica: I do. And I think that they're all. It's a great documentary because you learn about her, this iconoclastic woman, but all of the takeaways are takeaways that we should all embrace. It's a real life blessing. Are you crying? A little bit. Oh, honey. It is the most heartwarming and uplifting and absolutely out of left field documentary. That's how I feel.

[39:42] Meg: So, so beautifully, beautifully told.

[39:44] Jessica: Loved it. A go see it.

[39:57] Meg: I just want to thank you, Jessica, for suggesting that we do a watch party of this documentary. Everybody's been writing in and saying you guys have to talk about Robin Bird. I mean, people who, like my friend Chris, who lives in la, who I guarantee you had never heard of Robin Bird, saw the documentary and was like, have you guys ever heard of this person? Maybe you should do it.

[40:18] Jessica: And we're like, heard of her?

[40:19] Meg: Are you insane? Yeah, but yeah, coming from all sides. She did an interview with Tim Murphy on his blog, Caftan Chronicles.

[40:31] Jessica: Dead now over that title. Yeah.

[40:33] Meg: So he got to speak to the lady herself. Very exciting.

[40:38] Jessica: This really motivates me to continue on with our mission to have some kind of interaction with her.

[40:44] Meg: Absolutely. Well, I wrote her, this is before the documentary came out. I invited her to our podcast party just on the lark and she said, oh, I wish I could. I was like, oh my God.

[40:56] Jessica: Oh my God, it's Robbie.

[40:57] Meg: Robert.

[40:58] Jessica: She talked to me.

[40:59] Meg: She talked to me. I mean, now she probably gets like zillions and zillions of those every day, but we, we did have an exchange there just about a month or so ago.

[41:08] Jessica: That's very sweet.

[41:09] Meg: And you know, there are some parallels. We're not doing a sex positive cable access show.

[41:17] Jessica: I think we are sex positive.

[41:18] Meg: We, we are, but that's not our purpose.

[41:20] Jessica: No, no, it's, no, but just sort

[41:23] Meg: of as a passion project and sharing our thoughts and feelings with the world and that we touch people in a certain way. I, I, I think that there's some Parallels to what we're doing.

[41:37] Jessica: I agree. I hope that when we are 70, we're that cute.

[41:41] Meg: Oh, my God. Goals.

[41:43] Jessica: Oh, oh, oh. And the other thing that had me absolutely dead on the floor is that the structure of the documentary is so cute because we're introduced to her current life at her 69th birthday at Serendipity.

[42:00] Meg: Yes.

[42:01] Jessica: That's amazing. And then at the end, you can see that this has been a process of a whole year because it's her 70th birthday at Serendipity, where they're having

[42:09] Meg: ice cream and the waiters are singing,

[42:12] Jessica: and every waiter is, I'm sure, extraordinarily gay. And they're all, like, super happy that it's Robin Byrd.

[42:17] Meg: We should get a Serendipity.

[42:18] Jessica: I would love to do that. That's really cute.

[42:21] Meg: So we are now going on vacation.

[42:26] Jessica: Thanks God.

[42:27] Meg: And while we are on vacation, we will be also. I mean, we're definitely going to just go on vacation, but also, we're.

[42:34] Jessica: I was like, are you giving me a design?

[42:36] Meg: Well, no, you can take some time off. But then before we come back, we do have a few things that are in the works. So we'll have some fun things to announce in September when we're back to school.

[42:50] Jessica: Yeah. And I think that we're really going to kick it off very magnificently in September, because This is our 199th episode, and we are this one right now, and we're gonna start the school year with number 200. So that's very exciting. Do you. Can you believe that we will. We've done 199 podcasts. Is that the most, like, psychotic?

[43:14] Meg: Like, why.

[43:16] Jessica: Why do we do that?

[43:17] Meg: Well, I told you I would put the ear in with all these. With all these people. And, you know, here we are in a. In a historic pub, and so New York history comes up, and I'm like, bring out little factoids here and there. I'm like, I have to stop doing that. I don't need to be a walking encyclopedia of New York City.

[43:37] Jessica: Yes, you do. Because every time you say something, hand out one of our coasters.

[43:40] Meg: That's exactly what I did. I. Fortunately, I had some coasters in my b.

[43:45] Jessica: You are killing it. Well done. So this was very exciting. The year is not over. This is just our summer vacation. But I don't know, I feel like what we're doing is also. I was sort of inspired to think about this by the documentary. What we're doing has changed a little bit, you know, and our perspective has changed. And I think that when we began, we were really looking at it as, oh, my God, can you believe this thing happened? And now, like, I think that we've come to understand our own subject matter and live in it much more profoundly. And, you know, as we go into September and think about what our episode, our 200, is gonna be, I. I can only speak for myself. I think that I have even more affection for the city and for the people who have made our subject matter come to life than ever before.

[44:44] Meg: Wonderfully put and great transition into. If you have a story that you would like to tell on our podcast, we would love to hear it. So just shoot me a line through the Instagram or through the website and we'll talk about how you can record it on your own and we'll play it on the podcast. We've already collected a few.

[45:09] Jessica: No subject too strange.

[45:11] Meg: Oh, stranger the better.

[45:13] Jessica: No topic too salacious.

[45:16] Meg: Yeah.

[45:17] Jessica: Zing. Zing.