[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:18] Jessica: And I'm Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we

[00:27] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines and

[00:31] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:33] Meg: So it's so muggy outside.

[00:35] Jessica: But it's vile. It's so muggy. How muggy is it? My wood floors are sticky. They're damp. So you're wearing socks right now. I've been going around barefoot. Like, you know when wood floors, like, there's just, like, there's damp, and you're like. And I just had my floors cleaned, so I know it's not dirt.

[00:56] Meg: Had them cleaned.

[00:58] Jessica: A lady who I employ occasionally came to do the floor.

[01:04] Meg: Yes, Yes.

[01:05] Jessica: I had a nice lady clean my apartment. Anyone looking for a lovely cleaning woman? I have recommendations.

[01:12] Meg: Oh, actually, I do know someone who is looking. We will do this off mic.

[01:16] Jessica: Okay. Well, she's awesome, so that's great. Yeah.

[01:19] Meg: So second point of business, now that

[01:21] Jessica: we've covered cleaning and. And humidity.

[01:24] Meg: Okay, we had a BFF right into our Instagram. Marilyn.

[01:31] Jessica: Hello, Marilyn.

[01:33] Meg: I missed it when it was on tv. She is referring to the day my kid.

[01:38] Jessica: My kid went punk. I will never get over the. The word choice, the verb conjugation, just. Just saying.

[01:48] Meg: It was a truly bizarre show.

[01:50] Jessica: It was not good.

[01:51] Meg: But yes, Marilyn writes in saying, I missed it when it was on tv. I had only seen photos from it, which are hilarious as they are.

[02:00] Jessica: Indeed.

[02:01] Meg: But the podcast with the two of your reviews had me rolling with laughter. Last night, I woke up my husband, who had gone to bed early, with my laughter. I was a geeky kid who went punk myself at the time. I saw many parallels I can laugh at now. Now I need to find the show and see it for real. Marilyn, you have a lot to look forward to. It is bewildering. Bewildering is a good word, I think.

[02:28] Jessica: And, Marilyn, I'm so happy that we

[02:29] Meg: gave you the gift. Script. Or did they?

[02:32] Jessica: I think it was full improv. Marilyn, I'm speaking directly to you. Number one. So glad that we gave you the gift of laughter. However, this. I'm loosely calling it a film. A film will give you the gift of making you reassess yourself in the 80s, because I did not go punk. I did not. And yet I watched this and I kept thinking, did I think this of people? Like, did I think that punk kids dressed up? What was the Perspective. Cause like, that's the one thing we didn't talk about on the podcast is again, we see it now and we are rolling on the floor as adults, but as kids, I know we would have watched this and been like, this is so corny that we can't even stand it. I think that because we were in Manhattan and have been. We had been downtown, we knew the difference. And like a real punk.

[03:30] Meg: Yeah. I mean, all you on the Bowery

[03:32] Jessica: might have been a bit scary, but this was like it. It was like Kirk Cameron being dressed up with a faux hawk. What do you think?

[03:40] Meg: I'd been to England, the home of punk. Yeah. They actually have the for real punk. So I remember seeing them with like, you know, the spiky hair that's like three feet tall and then Aster place, obviously. Yeah. So I guess we just saw the real thing. And the real thing was not at the Nightingale Bamford School in any way, shape or form. It was very much in another neighborhood on a different street.

[04:06] Jessica: We had a few girls who. Now that you've met. I didn't even think of this, but now that you mention it, there are a few girls who flirted with goth, with a proto goth, new Romantics kind of look.

[04:18] Meg: Sure. That's a little safer though. Y'. All.

[04:20] Jessica: Y'. All. I'm saying that's like the super light Morrissey version of.

[04:25] Meg: Can you imagine if someone had come in with a nose ring or something? I mean, they would have. They would have turned them away and made them go home.

[04:31] Jessica: Expulsion.

[04:31] Meg: Yeah. And I. I don't know if there was a rule about having crazy color hair, but like, I think there must have been.

[04:40] Jessica: I think it was so beyond the pale.

[04:42] Meg: Yeah.

[04:43] Jessica: But no, no, we talked about this, that we had someone in. We did have one person who had kooky hair and. And no one said change it back. So. But she was so. I was going to say so mild mannered in other ways that I think that the hair color choice, it was so incongruous, which is why we were giggling about. Wasn't foreboding in any way.

[05:05] Meg: It didn't feel like a lifestyle choice. It just felt like.

[05:09] Jessica: Or that things would get worse. It wasn't like foreshadowing, not foreboding, foreshadowing of like, I'm about to go crazy off the rails with my hair color. My manic panic. I could only find it in a mild mannered color.

[05:26] Meg: Oh, no. To do that the summer before your senior year. I think you really should probably save it for the summer before your freshman year?

[05:35] Jessica: No, I thought it was a moment of great defiance. I think she's like, I'm out of here. I'm outies, suckers.

[05:40] Meg: It's. It's an odd. I'm done. It's. It's an odd look. Oh.

[05:44] Jessica: Oh. Well, it was an. I mean, are we at. What do you mean? I. Shoot. Huh? I'm. I'm. I'm a Twitter.

[05:50] Meg: Someone I know who went recently was in high school. There was a person in that person's class who everybody was just like, when is that girl gonna get a nose job? Because it was. I mean, I. I don't think people should get nose jobs unless it's like this situation.

[06:14] Jessica: Oh, really?

[06:14] Meg: This situation was extreme. And this person did wait until after graduation, and I recently saw pictures of this person and completely different face. Just completely different face, but went through all of middle school and high school with that nose.

[06:37] Jessica: Well, I.

[06:38] Meg: And is now an unrecognizable person without the. That nose. Also, that person's parents clearly have a lot of work done. I mean, they once had. One of them had that nose as well at some point. So there was just this plan all along. We just need to wait for graduation from high school. That is what one does well with

[07:02] Jessica: something as radical as a nose job, as opposed to colored hair. I think that if you enter into your freshman class at college and no one knows what you looked like before, you do have. It's a psychological boost rather than now. I'm coming into my class and all my friends, and, you know, no one's gonna be like, you looked like shit before. God, you look great. But there, you know, it would be a positive response, but it would still be teenagers being like, that's my point in the background.

[07:36] Meg: I really think that you should probably wait till after you graduate from high

[07:39] Jessica: school to get a nose to have plastic surgery or a punk hairdo. I feel you on that. I think that I'm so mean. I'm gonna say something really mean.

[07:52] Meg: It's okay.

[07:54] Jessica: I don't like myself right now.

[08:02] Meg: Okay. Obviously, I have to cut.

[08:06] Jessica: Actually, I need you to keep in. Obviously, I'm gonna cut that.

[08:09] Meg: I think I'm just gonna do. Beep. And then obviously, I'm gonna cut.

[08:14] Jessica: Yes. Yes. That's a. You know what? Please do that because you're. I feel like 90% of the outrageous things that I say are only great because of your reaction.

[08:26] Meg: All right.

[08:26] Jessica: No, it was. It was like. Yeah, but a. A massive nose job situation, which. PS Massive we have talked about.

[08:34] Meg: I've never seen anything like it in my life.

[08:35] Jessica: We have talked about the nose job scenario regarding someone and the kerfuffle that it created, you know, in its wake upon her return to. To school in the fall.

[08:48] Meg: So, yeah, if you can wait. That, that, that. That's my big advice to the teenage youth. If you can wait till after graduating from high school, it might be a smoother.

[08:58] Jessica: Yes. For all of the 16 year olds who are listening to us, he has. We know things. You should listen to this wisdom from the crones. I mean, the coven.

[09:16] Meg: So today we're going to do another episode of the More We Know.

[09:25] Jessica: Yay.

[09:27] Meg: I had a lot of fun gathering my fun facts for you today, Jessica.

[09:32] Jessica: I'm so delighted. I. I too had an entertaining time. I mean, it wasn't like sheer drudgery or anything. You say it as though it would be like, what are the odds at doing research?

[09:45] Meg: As you know, this is a. This is a hard week for me. So this was, this was a nice respite. So we'll trade off. I'll go first.

[09:53] Jessica: Okay.

[09:54] Meg: Did you know there is so much scaffolding in New York because of Local Law 10, enacted in 1980? Do you want to hear what it states?

[10:06] Jessica: I am dying to hear. I feel like I have scaffolding on me as I walk around the city. It's endless.

[10:13] Meg: So local law 10 states buildings over six floors must inspect their facades every five years. Because in 1979, Barnard freshman Grace Gold was hit in the head by falling cement While standing outside 601 W 115th St. Quote, it just came straight down and hit her. Said the person she was talking to. No, obviously it killed her instantly. Ed Koch signed The Local Law 10, which is a good law, let's just say it. No falling fucking concrete, please. But interestingly, Giuliani, that rat expanded it in 1998, requiring sheds be erected during inspections. And as a result of that, that created what they call shed economics. It's cheaper to maintain a shed, even pay fines for violations than fix a building. So some sheds stay up for years.

[11:31] Jessica: So I'm gonna ask you that.

[11:32] Meg: Friggin Giuliani.

[11:35] Jessica: Here's another thought about that. You may or may not do what I do. When you pass scaffolding and the sheds and look at who perpetrated them. What are the construction companies? What are the companies that. The shed companies that erect them. There are very few.

[11:55] Meg: It's.

[11:56] Jessica: It is graft, baby. It's graft, baby. You're under these horrible Structures which, by

[12:04] Meg: the way, actually dangerous.

[12:05] Jessica: Dangerous. They are dangerous.

[12:07] Meg: They're like little mugging tunnels. That's right.

[12:09] Jessica: They are scary as fuck. They're not well lit. They're supposed to be lit.

[12:15] Meg: They smell like pee.

[12:16] Jessica: Well, that's the best of it, honestly. They become residences for people who maybe should not be there.

[12:24] Meg: Sometimes they force you to walk into traffic.

[12:27] Jessica: Agreed. On 86th street, boy. Vey. And also they have taken on a. Another use, which definitely happened with the outdoor dining sheds during COVID Once they were kind of abandoned but not yet pulled down. Everyone is smoking weed in them. And it's like. It's like you get hot boxed when you walk down one of these fucking scaffolding things. So you're like, number and I. There's so many things that are objectionable about walking behind someone who's smoking anything and breathing it in. Because I'm like. Instantly, I'm like, okay, thank you for the COVID Thank you for the Legionnaires disease. Thank you for all of the. I know. We're going to talk about that. I know. Okay, okay.

[13:09] Meg: Sorry, I just made a face at Jessica, but I. I have a feeling that's going to be.

[13:12] Jessica: We're gonna get her. It's funny. Actually, it's not, but I wanna just finish my rant. Cause you know how much I enjoy that. And then you're in this cloud of skunk. And I've said this on this podcast before. If you're going to be one of those people who's like, puff, puff, puff, puff, creating a giant pig pen like cloud around yourself, could you get some better fucking weed? Because it's all skunk bullshit clipping like lawn clippings. Get something that's not so skunky and smells like a burning, smoldering, wet rope. Like, Jesus Christ. Preach, preach. I've had it. I'm mad as hell and I'm not taking anymore. No, the thing that you are, we are both about to talk about is that, you know, the Upper east side has had a lot of woes. And the one that we are currently suffering made me remember another one, which is a source of great hilarity for me. But currently on the Upper east side, the water tanks on top of the buildings. I think that's the source of them.

[14:16] Meg: Oh.

[14:16] Jessica: Legionella is all over the Upper east side, which is what results in Legionnaires disease when you breathe it in as a mist. And I think you also get something from ingesting it. Like there's. There are different.

[14:30] Meg: How can you deal with this.

[14:31] Jessica: Fuck if I know. But it was in the newspaper. I immediately, like, cornered the market on bottled water, particularly for my father, because aged people need to be more careful. And I thought. We didn't hear anything about it. And then today I got a note from someone who's up on these things and follows the Citizen app. That Legionella was just detected at the gap on 85th and third. Ooh.

[14:57] Meg: That gap has been there forever, so

[15:01] Jessica: who knows what's lurking in the pipes? It is not a good thing. But what it reminded me of. This is my favorite. The other great crisis of the Upper east side. I think it was roughly 2015. It was the great Valium crisis of the Upper east side. I got a call from my mother, who was like, do you have any Valium? And I was like, no, I've run out while you're asking, do you have any? She's like, no. Turned out there was such a run on Valium and apparently a shortage of deliveries that all of the neurotics on the Upper east side had eaten up all of the Valium. There was none. Not a pill to be. What year is this? I think it was 2015.

[15:43] Meg: And it wasn't anything special about the year. It was just.

[15:46] Jessica: No, no, no. It was just like a shipment hadn't come, and everyone was burning through their Valium with all of their neuroses.

[15:52] Meg: See, people, like, out in the streets going like.

[15:54] Jessica: Yeah. Like, these are basic public works, like water, electricity, Valium, and. Yeah, it was. It was the great Upper east side drought. The Legionella is a bit worse. I don't know if it's. Is it worse? I guess it depends on who you ask.

[16:11] Meg: I. I don't think it's. It's very good.

[16:13] Jessica: No, it's. It. Okay. Admittedly, quite bad, actually, can lead to death, as opposed to Valium, which just makes you want to kill yourself, but, yes.

[16:23] Meg: I would just like to close out my little fun fact with. How much do we hate Giuliani for ruining things?

[16:29] Jessica: Okay, so I have a fun fact.

[16:32] Meg: Great.

[16:33] Jessica: It's sort of a collection of fun facts. Having gone to the Nightingale Bamford School for Girls, which is now, I recently found out from our very good friend's daughter, they just call it Nightingale now. There's no Bamford School for Girls.

[16:48] Meg: Poor Bamford just got cut out of the whole thing.

[16:50] Jessica: That's what I. That's the scuttlebump.

[16:52] Meg: When Alice was there, they were trying to rebrand, and I didn't approve of that.

[16:57] Jessica: I don't like it.

[16:58] Meg: It was Ms. Nightingale and Ms. Bamford. They did it together. So to just cut one of them out just feels rude.

[17:05] Jessica: I. I couldn't agree with you more. And you know, write a letter, write

[17:11] Meg: a strongly worded air. You know, I've tried to make changes.

[17:14] Jessica: I know, I know. That has not worked. We do know that Nightingale was the source material for Gossip Girl. Thanks to our friend from school. You're behind us, Cecily Von Siegesar. Did you know that there are not many TV shows or movies that are based on New York City private schools? They are very few and far between.

[17:39] Meg: Hmm.

[17:40] Jessica: And in fact, there are some schools or, or people who have created entertainment that they, they use like an amalgam of the schools. There are a couple of schools where, like specifically Dalton, where the school is a, A location that's acknowledged. Cause you see the outside of the school in Manhattan, right? She goes to Dalton, but they don't talk about it at all.

[18:06] Meg: She's a high school student. I. I mean, what the actual fuck in the movie, man? A high school student.

[18:12] Jessica: It's fucking creepy. Okay, okay, sorry. We do know that it's fucking wrong. Now I already knew about one of the only two artistic creations that actually are inspired by the specific school. So the first one. Have you ever seen the film? I think it's from the 60s. The world of Henry Orient.

[18:36] Meg: No.

[18:37] Jessica: Nora Johnson, who wrote the original book, attended Brearley.

[18:42] Meg: Okay.

[18:43] Jessica: And her biographical material, which has been confirmed, is about her time at Brearley. She put it into her novel, the World of Henry Orient.

[18:54] Meg: What is the year?

[18:55] Jessica: And it's. I have to look it up. It's in the 60s.

[18:57] Meg: Okay.

[18:58] Jessica: But it was inspired by her time there. The story follows two Manhattan private school girls whose friendship and adventures, which are, by the way, adorable. And they're in that moment of teenagehood where they're not quite ready to test the waters of grown upness. But they're not tweens anymore, so they kind of have the run of the city and the film version of it. You can see so much of Manhattan and it's fabulous. And they are very clearly attending brierly. And one girl is a Park Avenue girl and the other one is a downtown girl in a brownstone.

[19:34] Meg: Okay.

[19:35] Jessica: So it's their friendship and adventures, including their obsession with the pianist Henry Orient, played in the film by Peter Sellers. Completely hilarious. He's a concert pianist who they're obsessed with. And he's got all these heirs and they follow him because they're in love with him, but he is having an affair with a socialite.

[19:57] Meg: And they figure it out because they're stalking him.

[20:00] Jessica: And he always has this very cultivated voice, but every now and then he slips and in total Peter Sellers delivery, he suddenly, he's like a guy from the Bronx. He's like, you want me to make love to you on a bunch of rocks? When the woman's like, take me in Central park, he's like, it's a fucking boulder. So it's adorable. It's a great.

[20:21] Meg: That sounds so fun.

[20:23] Jessica: It's wonderful, wonderful film and book. And you see also we've talked about this a lot, how kids moved around the city on their own. And you see it in this film and in this book, that they are just. They are independent creatures, which is amazing.

[20:37] Meg: And the movie was made in the 60s too.

[20:39] Jessica: Yes. Are you a fan of the music of Jim Carroll? As in the Jim Carroll Band?

[20:46] Meg: I know of it.

[20:48] Jessica: And you know that he wrote the Basketball Diaries?

[20:51] Meg: Yes.

[20:52] Jessica: So what I didn't know. You're like affirmative. Like, this is a test. I got it. So what I didn't know. I knew that he had grown up like in Queens, I think, and very blue collar and in the 50s, correct, I believe. And he went to Catholic school in an outer borough and he was excellent at playing basketball. Unfortunately, he also was excellent at shooting heroin.

[21:22] Meg: Right.

[21:23] Jessica: And so he not only having this punk band that is revered, but he wrote the Basketball Diaries. And I did not know that he got a scholarship to go to an elite New York private school on a basketball scholarship. He went to Trinity. Oh, interesting. And that is what the Basketball Diaries is based on.

[21:46] Meg: Trinity, yes.

[21:47] Jessica: No way. Way.

[21:50] Meg: I'll tell Billi that.

[21:51] Jessica: I know, it's very exciting. And also a book made into a film in the 90s with DiCaprio, apparently. A very good film. I never saw it.

[21:59] Meg: I don't think I saw it either. Well, thank you. Thank you for those facts.

[22:03] Jessica: That is my greatest pleasure.

[22:11] Meg: Did you know that New York City currently has two full scale Vegas style casinos with slot machines and blackjack tables. There is one in Queens and there is one in Yonkers. This is a recent development. Governor Hochul promised billions in tax revenue for education and the MTA and thousands of new jobs. But according to Reddit, they are both

[22:43] Jessica: sad, sad places because there's so many casinos that are really upbeat and wholesome.

[22:50] Meg: Well, actually, I mean, going to Vegas is fun. Going to Atlantic City is fun. But apparently these places, they're dreary. They're dreary. Not a Destination.

[23:02] Jessica: Yeah. I. I don't know if I've talked about this on the podcast, but I have been to Vegas more times than I need to.

[23:10] Meg: Yeah. And you don't enjoy it?

[23:11] Jessica: I. I find it very depressing.

[23:13] Meg: You have to plan it properly. I have been to Vegas a number of times. I've had very different experiences. If anybody wants to reach out to me, I'll tell you the perfect way to do it.

[23:26] Jessica: Well, why don't you give us a preview?

[23:29] Meg: I mean, I. I would have to talk about the. The time I went to Vegas that was just, like, a complete hot mess where we were staying at the Golden Nugget, and I. I burst into tears. I went to use the bathroom, and someone had already used it.

[23:45] Jessica: Oh, no.

[23:46] Meg: The place was like orange shag car. I was so. And we looked out over, like, a generator of some. I was like, I can't. I can't like this. It's like I felt, like, depression beginning to spread all over my body. I literally just got. I burst into tears.

[24:08] Jessica: I think Joe can attest the toilet was really like. What's here is actually the commentary in Vegas.

[24:15] Meg: I. I went into the bathroom. I was like, have you used the toilet yet? And Joe was like, no. I was like, well, someone has.

[24:21] Jessica: Someone has.

[24:24] Meg: All right, let's contrast that. Let's contrast that with Kathy's 40th birthday party, okay? It was just a handful of people, and her mother was a gambler, and so she got VIP treatment. Now, we didn't get VIP treatment like her mother, because we weren't going to be gambling like that, but we stayed at the Four Seasons, which is connected to Mandalay Bay. So when you want to go on, like, you know.

[24:56] Jessica: The Lazy River.

[24:57] Meg: The Lazy River.

[24:59] Jessica: I actually went to a 30th birthday party there. My friend Josh.

[25:02] Meg: It's so freaking fun.

[25:03] Jessica: It was was. It was. It was weird, but it was fun.

[25:06] Meg: But listen, listen. So if you want to, like, you know, have a party of it, you go to Mandalay Bay, but there's a door that separates it from the Four Seasons, which is completely different. It's totally peaceful. It's like being in a spa. Everyone's whispering. The pool boys are beautiful, and they bring you, like, little cooling towels when

[25:30] Jessica: the pool boy shows up. Is the whispering, how much? No.

[25:36] Meg: No.

[25:36] Jessica: Okay.

[25:36] Meg: Anyway, so you get. You get the best of both worlds.

[25:39] Jessica: I love your withering glance. No. Well, that is absolutely fascinating.

[25:46] Meg: But here to open something in New York, which is not a destination. It's. Of course, it's Just going to be depressing. How could it not be?

[25:56] Jessica: Do you mean it's not a destination? Because the casino was not built in a way that would make it a hotel casino, except.

[26:03] Meg: Exactly.

[26:04] Jessica: It's just like a pile of slot machines and a sad person. Exactly. Oh, well, that's not true.

[26:08] Meg: Exactly. Just add sad people, and then that's what they thought they had to do. And I. I'm very irritated with Governor Hochul for being like, but really, we're going to give all that money to education in the mda. I'm like, I don't believe you.

[26:23] Jessica: All that money. Five quarters today. Thanks, Kavi. That is very weird. I had no idea.

[26:30] Meg: Now you know.

[26:32] Jessica: So, as you know, we have discussed on this podcast the window dressing at Barney's.

[26:38] Meg: Yes.

[26:40] Jessica: Well, did you know?

[26:41] Meg: Designed by Simon Doonan.

[26:44] Jessica: Doonan. Did you know that the precursor to that, in terms of all things avant garde, was Bonwit Teller. Trump knocked it down to make Trump Tower.

[26:58] Meg: Oh, no.

[27:00] Jessica: Oh, yeah. And he was supposed to preserve the art deco. He was supposed to give the. Give it to either the Met or MoMA, these Art Deco limestone carvings that were on the front. And then he was like, ah, it's just garbage. And trashed it. He would know from garbage. So Bon whitteller from the 40s to the 60s was absolutely fascinating because the person who was in charge of the windows was a guy named Jean Moore. And Jean Moore had his finger on the pulse of new art, mid century modern art. He used fine art, sculpture, fashion, lighting, mannequins, found objects, all in creating the windows. But even more interesting to me was that in 1957, Robert Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns both displayed their work in the windows of Bonwit Teller before having galleries. And what Bonwit Teller did was they showed these modern artists work in the windows to help them get gallery representation. So the two of them benefited enormously.

[28:16] Meg: Can I ask you a question quickly? You know those bags, though, the Bonwit Teller bags, They're lavender. Why do we see those if Bonwit Teller no longer exists?

[28:27] Jessica: Because we know people who have been here since time began, and they still have the bag.

[28:31] Meg: Oh, my God. Really?

[28:32] Jessica: Yeah.

[28:33] Meg: I mean, that's crazy, don't you think? Well, I know exactly what a bond would have been.

[28:36] Jessica: Have you seen the bag collections in most people's New York apartments? They go deep, ma'. Am.

[28:42] Meg: That's wild to me. Okay, go ahead.

[28:46] Jessica: Wow.

[28:46] Meg: I want one.

[28:47] Jessica: Okay. I bet you can get it on ebay. Hmm. Rauschenberg's collection was actually displayed in the windows as part of, get this, they had a Young American artists window exhibit. Who else benefited from this? Our frequently discussed on this podcast, Friend of the podcast. Sort of Andy Warhol.

[29:10] Meg: Am I gonna unmute?

[29:11] Jessica: He worked on the windows. That's what I thought.

[29:13] Meg: He worked on the windows.

[29:14] Jessica: He worked on the windows. But they used his artwork, his pop art, before it was any place, when he was still a window dresser as the backdrop in the windows. So he too got the Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns treatment. So it helped him get a gallery. But I love that it was a gallery to get people galleries. Like, that's so fabulous. And can you imagine being someone who has that much clout that you're. I mean, Bonwit Teller was Bonwit Teller. So you're dressing Fifth Avenue. You are making Fifth Avenue look like Fifth Avenue. And you're like, you know what? See that kid in the corner who's throwing paint on a canvas? That kid's got moxie. Putting him in there.

[29:54] Meg: I know I said that I don't love department stores, but you know what I do love?

[29:58] Jessica: Do tell.

[29:59] Meg: Window shopping. I love walking down Fifth Avenue and just looking in the windows of those beautiful, beautiful stores and all, you know, Tiffany and Bergdorfs.

[30:12] Jessica: And I still get a charge out of Bergdorf Goodman. Yeah.

[30:14] Meg: I mean, everything is just even like Ralph Lauren. I mean, everybody puts so much into their window display. It's really beautiful.

[30:22] Jessica: It is.

[30:24] Meg: I appreciate Rhoda Morgenstern. She was a window dresser.

[30:28] Jessica: Oh, my God, what a great piece of trivia. Well done.

[30:38] Meg: Did you know that Alexa Kennan from Little Darlings and Pretty in Pink and the after school special, Me and my dad's new wife died in her Manhattan apartment, reportedly of asthma on September 10,

[30:56] Jessica: 1985. Who did she play in? Little Darlings?

[31:00] Meg: Look it up right now and you'll recognize her.

[31:02] Jessica: What's the name?

[31:04] Meg: Alexa Kennan. K E N I N. Oh, her, her.

[31:11] Jessica: Aw, she was so cute now.

[31:15] Meg: Yes, and it's very sad. And of course, there were lots of rumors, like, oh, maybe it was suicide, maybe it was drugs. But I actually think it. It was asthma. From 1980 to 1987, the death rate from asthma as the underlying cause of death increased 31%.

[31:41] Jessica: Why?

[31:42] Meg: You didn't know this? I thought for sure you would know this.

[31:45] Jessica: I have an asthma story. But no, why would it have increased?

[31:51] Meg: I don't know. I mean, somebody said it might be because of environment. Some people said, oh, well, they now had a Word for the thing that people were dying of. That makes sense because so, you know, it's, it's kind of hard to track it. But I remember, I mean, you know, people having, like, their inhalers and stuff. I feel like that popped up in the 80s. I don't remember that when I was

[32:15] Jessica: little, of course, because I'm, like, steeped in 19th century and early 20th century history. I'm always like, oh, that's when they say they had a delicate condition. Okay. Ah. So my darling friend and first husband had asthma that got progressively better as he got older. But he spent a lot of time in the hospital as a child. And when we lived on 13th West 13th street, there were several times where it was very scary. And we, I had to go with him in the middle of the night to St. Luke's and he would, you know, go into the ER and they'd give him a serious nebulizer and, like, he had to stay. And it was no joke. We graduated in 91. When I met him in 87, like, really, like, if he's not feeling well, get to the infirmary immediately. And, and this was also in the 90s. What triggered could be cold. Cold weather. It could be an irritation. You know, it was so terrifying to me because it really was always a potentially life or death moment that I, I don't think that I registered anything other than, oh, shit, it's happening. Go time. I think that what is now known about asthma has made it something that is so manageable that, you know, it's been eclipsed by peanut allergies as the big childhood nightmare. But, yeah, it's very scary. And I, I just looked her up, as you know, and I didn't realize this. Maybe. I'm sure you do, that Pretty in Pink was dedicated to her.

[33:53] Meg: Yes. Because she died before it was released.

[33:56] Jessica: Indeed. Yeah. Yeah. That's really awesome.

[33:58] Meg: It is sad.

[33:59] Jessica: 23. So I have two more, and I just don't know which one to go with first. I think I'm going to go with the one that is close to your heart. It's about pigeons. Ah, I know. The thing that I dislike more than pigeons is the people who feed pigeons.

[34:16] Meg: I know you've talked about it.

[34:18] Jessica: I'm just starting here.

[34:19] Meg: Okay, we know, we know, we know.

[34:23] Jessica: I needed to know, is it illegal to feed the pigeons?

[34:28] Meg: You know, I have a bird feeder on my roof and I feed pigeons. Sorry, I, I, I have to come clean.

[34:34] Jessica: Yes, but you're not throwing. There's a woman. I saw this on Reddit There is a woman who gets on the subway and each time the door opens, she throws a cup of birdseed onto the platform.

[34:47] Meg: Why?

[34:48] Jessica: Because she's feeding the pigeons who come onto into the subway stations. And people yell at her on the subway. And she just goes, me. And keeps doing it.

[34:57] Meg: Crazy lady.

[34:59] Jessica: So, you know, you think there ought to be a law.

[35:01] Meg: Okay. Is there a law?

[35:03] Jessica: No.

[35:03] Meg: Oh, no. However, you're going to make one.

[35:06] Jessica: No, I'm not messing with the pigeon mafia. Not getting involved. However, see, it's not illegal to, as you know, keep pigeons. People have been keeping pigeons forever. It's not illegal. Illegal to feed the pigeons. But a violation can be issued and fines can be issued if you are creating a swarm, a collection, a grouping of pigeons, and then you don't clean up their poop.

[35:38] Meg: Well, that's smart. I do hose off my bird feeder regularly because you don't want to think about that.

[35:45] Jessica: No. There are some people who wander around with their backpacks filled with torn bread and they scatter it like fucking Johnny Appleseed all around the city. That's why the pigeons swarm in certain areas, because they know it's going to be a big pile of food. The other thing is that there are certain restaurants that are not as concerned with sanitary conditions as others. And at the end of the night, they throw the food onto the sidewalk, which becomes rat and pigeon central.

[36:18] Meg: I've seen a lot of huge rats lately, like Covid era sized rats.

[36:23] Jessica: That was fucked up. That was.

[36:24] Meg: They got so big.

[36:27] Jessica: Really bad. And feeding pigeons in the park. Which, by the way, brings us to the Tom Lehrer song, Poisoning Pigeons in the Park. You don't know this song?

[36:37] Meg: I don't.

[36:38] Jessica: Oh, I will share unsurprisingly, close to my heart, but I will tell you about that in a second. The laws about feeding pigeons and allowing them to congregate is up to the individual park, huh? Right. Tom Lehrer, hilarious lyricist, songwriter. He wrote a lot of song comedy songs, novelty songs that were basically very dark and about, like how you're gonna. The many ways in which he could fuck people up, basically. And one of his famous songs was about his hatred are shared distaste for the dirtiness of the pigeon community. So he has the song Poisoning Pigeons in the park so you can look that up online.

[37:25] Meg: On that bright note, don't feed them, but poison them.

[37:30] Jessica: No, I'm not saying you should poison pigeons. I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying there's a song that

[37:36] Meg: gives you a chuckle.

[37:37] Jessica: It gives me A chuckle. What do you want from me?

[37:45] Meg: Well, on that note.

[37:46] Jessica: Oh, bring it. You're gonna be like, here's my pigeon fact.

[37:51] Meg: Weird that we are both talking about these things. Did you know that in 1980, New York City parks started posting do not feed signs to discourage feeding squirrels? Squirrels?

[38:07] Jessica: Oh, no.

[38:08] Meg: Victorian New Yorkers thought they were being gener, but actually feeding the squirrels led to not so great things. Dependent squirrels. Hungry hawks.

[38:21] Jessica: Oh, no.

[38:22] Meg: And fat rats.

[38:25] Jessica: I think it's very interesting that you are pro pigeon and anti rat.

[38:32] Meg: Yeah. And, you know, I had mice and gerbils when I was little, so I'm not anti rodent really. But the big fat rats, they. They scare me. And they are fearless and they will bite you.

[38:47] Jessica: Well, as per. As per podcast, early podcast, the ones who. Who actually attacked that poor woman. Attack rat. Really gross. Really bad.

[38:58] Meg: I mean, pizza rat. I. I have respect for pizza. I think when they just get too big, I'm like, that's just. I. That. That's making me uncomfortable. But I don't like, scream or run away if I see them, like in the subway or something like that.

[39:13] Jessica: Oh, I don't. If they're far enough away. But if they're close.

[39:17] Meg: If they're close on a lonely street at night, unlike.

[39:22] Jessica: I'm actually feeling queasy just thinking about it. It's very vomitous. So one of the reasons that I stopped going to the Angelica movie theater, because they had mice and rats and they would. In the theater, they would run across your feet. No, they may have. They may have dealt with their varmint problem, but that, I mean, this is from the 80s and 90s. I remember just being like, you know, I'm all for an avant garde film, but no, thank you. I'll see it at Cinema Village. 1, 2, and 3.

[39:52] Meg: But isn't that interesting? So, yeah, New York City parks have, you know, those do not feed signs. Some of them. But I guess you're saying that it. It's not across the board that certain parks do it and certain parks don't do it. And is there a rule between, like, pigeons versus squirrels? Would you be allowed to feed a pigeon and not feed a squirrel? Well, how could you choose?

[40:13] Jessica: It's like Sophie's Choice. How do you know? I don't. I can't help you, Meg. I have no clue. All right. I don't think I've spoken about this on this podcast.

[40:27] Meg: You probably have times

[40:33] Jessica: I'm making sad face.

[40:35] Meg: No, it's good stuff. I'm.

[40:37] Jessica: I mean, if I Did. It wasn't an episode, it was in passing.

[40:41] Meg: Got it.

[40:41] Jessica: So I will. I will expand on what I spoke of in passing. There I was in my apartment. Picture it. Sicily, 1942. I'm in my apartment and on my apple shuffle, like we. You listen to this. We think you'll enjoy this. This absolutely kooky song comes on, but it's really well done and it's clearly like hyper produced, orchestral, early 70s prog rock. And I'm like, this is great. Like, and it was funny. And so I wound up like listening to the whole album. The band is called Klaatu and they're named after K, L, A, A T U. It was a duo formed in 1973, John Walashuck Walashuk and D. Long. They named themselves after Klaatu, who was the extraterrestrial alien ambassador that came to Earth on the day the Earth stood still. Okay, okay. So fun. We can tell they're very pop culture centric fun. Interestingly, they also wrote the incredibly popular Carpenter's hit Calling out to.

[41:57] Meg: Are you serious?

[41:59] Jessica: Yeah, they recorded it first.

[42:02] Meg: Interplanetary.

[42:03] Jessica: Calling it the Interplanetary Craft. Yes. Yes, that's it.

[42:07] Meg: That's a beautiful song.

[42:09] Jessica: It is. I'm telling you. Listen to Klaatu.

[42:11] Meg: They're fucking great.

[42:12] Jessica: Calling occupants of interplanetary craft. And then the Carpenters made it into a tub. Beautiful. Yeah. They had another song on this album called Sub Rosa Subway. And I was listening to the lyrics and I was like, wait, what are you talking about? The song is about a subway system that predates our subway system that was created by a man named Alfred Eli Beach. And he secretly created this subway system underground.

[42:49] Meg: I know where the Courthouse Share.

[42:51] Jessica: It ran for only 300ft on Broadway.

[42:56] Meg: Oh, not downtown. Nope, nope, nope.

[42:59] Jessica: And it opened in 1870. It was a demonstration subway.

[43:04] Meg: What street, though? On Broadway.

[43:06] Jessica: What? I will look it up now. Alfred Eli beach wrote an article in scientific American in 1849 saying that there should be not only a railway above, but a railway below. Twenty years later, he creates the beach pneumatic transit railway. It was a real operating demonstration system rather than simply a proposal. He was ready to do it. So trains powered by air win cool. And the station still does exist. And it was a very, very ambitious program. He patented his invention because he co founded the Mun Co. Patent agency. And that agency that he created helped people like Thomas Edison create their stuff, as well as your friend and mine, Alexander Graham Bell. So Alfred Eli beach was a real innovator. And a big thinker. But it didn't catch on. We weren't ready for it. And his vision was so grand. And it didn't follow the same pattern, the same model as the Underground, which really became the model for our subway system. It was too wackadoodle for people. So anyway, this song from Klaatu made me do the research a long time ago, which is why I was like, maybe I talked about this already because I find it fascinating, but in listening to The, I think 1973 album, Listen to Sub Rosa and you will absolutely love it.

[44:52] Meg: Looking forward. Also, I'm going to listen to that Carpenter song too.

[45:01] Jessica: Meg, in response to your desperate requirement and need that I not only say that you were right, but give a full. I can't believe you said this. A full throated affirmation of your correctness. Yes. Alfred Beach's pneumatic subway, its demonstration 300ft, was on Broadway downtown, near the courthouse in City Hall. What? Yes. It ran from Warren to Murray streets. The terminus was in the basement of the Rogers Peet building in Lower Manhattan. And it was near the old City hall station. I'm not. I'm not cutting this.

[45:44] Meg: It's not very full throated.

[45:45] Jessica: It is. I'm just telling you what the. What the Internet says. And it was originally supposed to have a five mile route to Central Park.

[45:53] Meg: Oh, that would have been very cool.

[45:54] Jessica: Right? How convenient. How convenient. And here is a photograph. How cool is this? The subway cars were round like cylinders.

[46:03] Meg: So weird looking. I will post that on the Instagram.

[46:06] Jessica: The photograph is circa 1873. It's so cool. It's so cool.

[46:11] Meg: You've been to the Transit Museum?

[46:13] Jessica: I have.

[46:13] Meg: It's so fun. All righty. Well, that was fun. Thank you for all the knowledge and.

[46:20] Jessica: Same to you. A full throated. Thanks. See, doesn't that feel good, Margaret? Thank you. I'm. Yes, it does feel good. I am happy if you're happy.

[46:33] Meg: I'm happy.

[46:34] Jessica: Delightful.

[46:35] Meg: I need affirmation this week.

[46:37] Jessica: I think that I've been doing a bang up job of. Of providing affirmation because it is full throated and sincere. Ah, that's. That's the combo. I do. Do you feel like, you know, throwing a little back over here? Like a crumb. Just a crumb. All I'm asking for is a mere morsel.

[46:54] Meg: Your hair looks so cute today. You've got sort of like the side bang thing happening. I don't know if you straightened it. No, it looks really adorable. It looks summery. Yeah. And I know, you're getting really excited for, like, summer to actually begin.

[47:09] Jessica: I think it has begun. It's very moist in here. Right?

[47:12] Meg: But in terms of vacation.

[47:14] Jessica: Oh, fuck. Yes.

[47:16] Meg: It's days away. Vacation is days away.

[47:18] Jessica: It is really days away. No, I didn't straighten it. This is bedhead that I scraped into a ponytail. And then I felt so bad about my overgrown bangs that I used clips to clip them up. So the fact that you think this is a good look gives me so much hope.

[47:34] Meg: It's. That's you not even trying. Think about that. That's great.

[47:39] Jessica: I think when I try, it gets worse. I think that's the. That's the tragedy. I am. It's true. I asked for a full throated endorsement. Now, like, no, no.

[47:49] Meg: Try again.

[47:50] Jessica: Okay, let's do. Okay.

[47:52] Meg: That's you not even trying.

[47:54] Jessica: Meg, you are so right. I am phenomenal. Thank you. As are you. Go team. Go, go team. So, normally we close out our podcast with, you know what, what is the correlation between our two stories? High end tie in. And we do not have the ability to do that today. But I do want to say one thing. That this whole final exchange made me think about women. Women are so good at having each other's backs. Meg, I gotta tell you, you warmed my heart when I tried to poo poo. What? You said, like, no, you will take that compliment. And here it comes again. So I've talked about this on this podcast before. Despite being a snarky little bitch occasionally, I'm very, very in favor of tell people how you feel about them, provided it's nice. And tell your friends you love them. Mag, that was so sweet and so kind. And I think it's hilarious that the minute we stopped recording, we both went, oh, Jesus Christ.

[48:56] Meg: So did you just say you love me?

[49:00] Jessica: Oh, my God. Are you serious right now? I love you too. Aw, I love you too. But, you know. Oh, see, this is the whole point. You can't assume that people know. So, yes, tell your friends that you love them. And, Meg, this was very educational.

[49:15] Meg: Sam.