[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:18] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City,

[00:26] Meg: where we still live and where we podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:31] Jessica: And I do pop culture. And pop culture is what's taking me to my intro today. Meg.

[00:38] Meg: Okay, I'm excited.

[00:39] Jessica: Now, you normally have the. You know, what do you think of this? Like, you have your intro. I am on a tear today.

[00:45] Meg: Oh, yes.

[00:47] Jessica: Okay. Yeah, some of it's good, some of it's less good. And here we go. So last night, I had the great and good fortune to go to a gala at the Met. It was not the Met gala. It was a Met gala. I have very, very lovely friends who are deeply involved with the YMCA. It was their 50th anniversary gala for a particular award that they give out. So we all got all dressed up. They had a fabulous cocktail time in the main hall, and then we all had dinner at the Temple of Dender. Wow. And it was smashing. And let me tell you something. It was another first, not just my first going to a gala at the Met. It was the first of the comedian Robbie Hoffman. It is her year this year. Robbie Hoffman is one of the funniest people I've ever met, witnessed fun. She has a special, I think, on Netflix. She's on the TV show Rooster. She was in Hacks. She's a writer.

[01:53] Meg: Rooster.

[01:54] Jessica: She's the roommate of the girl who's dating the professor.

[01:58] Meg: Oh, okay.

[01:59] Jessica: Yeah, yeah. She's a scream. So it was her very first job ever emceeing a gala event. I have never in my life seen anyone work a crowd. Like this woman did. This brought up Orthodox woman from Crown Heights who is very gay, very butch, and possibly the funniest person I've ever seen. The entire room of about 500 people crying, laughing, like no one could handle it. She was amazing. And I've never seen anyone raise money at a gala like she did. It was the best combination of wit and Jewish shaming I've ever seen in my life. And she was like, I know that there are people. There are B's here. You know? You know, they've got dollars a B. Dollars. Not an M, A B. And why are you not giving more? I know you paid to be here. That's not enough. She raised a quarter of a million dollars in 10 minutes.

[03:06] Meg: Amazing.

[03:07] Jessica: It was incredible. So it's very clear to me that in A room filled with people who do galas. That woman is going to be working a lot. So yay for Robbie Hoffman. Love her fanning beyond belief. However, there is another person at this gala. There was the dj. So normally at this gala, the second half of the event is three hours of dancing in the main hall of the Metropolitan Museum.

[03:36] Meg: So much fun.

[03:38] Jessica: Well, it would have been, but this DJ played incredibly bad house music. It wasn't really DJing, even though he had like decks and the whole thing. It was basically, he had a playlist and he was horsing around with his friends behind the decks. It was thumping, it was loud, it had no. He had no interest in the audience. Because what happens at a gala like that, if they're smart, is everyone is on the dance floor. And by the way, the median age was like 60, so 65 maybe. So you can imagine what the music should be to get people out there shaking. And then during that, to have, you know, announcements about, on your phone. We've now sent you, you can, with one click, do another donation. You're having such a good time. They were doing projections on the walls, all of that. This kid was just playing with his friends and the entire music, it was just ns, ns, ns. But so loud. And he had like four young women, blondes sort of undulating in front of his setup, who were clearly like some little hangers on that he had invited. At one point, the absolutely adorable 20 something niece of my hosts went over to him and was like, you know, could you play ymca? Cause this is the ymca. Seriously, like, could you like, do something? And he looked at her blankly and said with contempt, do you know who I am?

[05:18] Meg: Oh, no. So he's no Alice Jokela.

[05:22] Jessica: Fuck no.

[05:23] Meg: Ah, just saying. She was an incredible dj, for she.

[05:29] Jessica: She would have killed it. She understood the assignment. Exactly. He closed the party down.

[05:36] Meg: Oh no.

[05:37] Jessica: People left.

[05:38] Meg: Oh my God.

[05:40] Jessica: And so there has been a revolution amongst the people who attended that in an outcry against this shitheel. So I am. And all day I was like, I wish that I was on Instagram personally, with a. A bigger following of my personal Instagram so I could get into it. And then I was like, wait a minute, I can talk about him on the podcast.

[06:04] Meg: I do kind of wish you had taken a selfie with him in the background. That would have been fun.

[06:08] Jessica: I am quite sure that I can procure such a thing from the Youngs who were with us. I have, as my mother used to say in her inimitable way, and this was A line that she would use. And I was always like, but you're so good at grammar. Why is this what you say? She would say, I have a hate on him. So that is how I feel.

[06:30] Meg: Rusty.

[06:31] Jessica: Yes, but what it really is, it's part of a conversation that you and I have been having for quite some time, Meg, which is in many different ways how we are all experiencing the manosphere and the entitlement and the oblivion of a certain kind of young man. And it was. It's so rare that I see it in person because why would I? I'm so insulated and that's not the life I lead. But seeing it, I got so angry I had to leave. Literally, like, that's how angry I was. I. I left the Met. So I know it doesn't paint a very good picture of me. No, no, no.

[07:14] Meg: But let's end on a positive note. Who was the comedian again that you love?

[07:18] Jessica: Oh, she was a poem.

[07:21] Meg: Tons of love.

[07:23] Jessica: So tons of love. Robbie Hoffman.

[07:26] Meg: Robbie Hoffman.

[07:27] Jessica: She is everywhere right now. Get tickets to her shows. Support her. You won't regret it. I have never seen 500 people gagging with laughter. And she had a thing that she did for all of these old people who got up to talk about, like, I've been with, you know, MasterCard for 70 years. She was like, who's that cutie coming up? By the time the thing was over, every person who came up was calling each other a cutie. Like, she was so magnetic and so entertaining. She was a ray of sunshine. So follow her. How old were you?

[08:17] Meg: Thanksgiving, 1983.

[08:19] Jessica: 13.

[08:20] Meg: Right.

[08:21] Jessica: I love that you're like, correct. I did that. I checked the record.

[08:25] Meg: So what was a typical Thanksgiving? Did you spend it in New York?

[08:29] Jessica: Yes.

[08:30] Meg: When you were 13?

[08:31] Jessica: Yes, specifically when I was 13. And it was either at my parents apartment or at the house of sue and Harvey Greenstein. And it was, you know, just family affair or. And actually at that point. No, you know what? At that point, it was still always at my parents or at my aunt's in Queens. And it was a very large affair, lots of people. And one of the things that I always remember. Cause, you know, it was like very typical Thanksgiving, but that it was a We. We were obsessed with singing the hymn. I think it's a hymn. We gathered together to ask the Lord's blessing as a bunch of Jews. So it was like an integral part. And my family on my mother's side cannot carry a tune in a bucket. And so it was absolute hilarity every Time. But they would sing every verse to the bitter end.

[09:29] Meg: What time, what time did you have?

[09:31] Jessica: Great question. It usually started at around 4.

[09:34] Meg: Okay, we did that too.

[09:36] Jessica: Yeah. It's like, you know, you have like drinks and snackies because God knows you won't eat enough at the table. You have to be already full by the time you sit down. So. Yeah. And then I think there's always football and so on Thanksgiving. And so then the men would retire to one of the bedroom, I guess my parents bedroom to turn on the game.

[10:01] Meg: Did you ever watch Thanksgiving Day Parade?

[10:04] Jessica: Yes. Yes. That's something I wouldn't have remembered had you not brought it up. I remember watching. I went once when I was really little, but I didn't like crowds as a kid. But we watch it on TV and I remember, I mean, and everyone like remembers when Snoopy ran away. You know, there's some, some great moments and, and some of the, you know, the non balloon entertainment that sticks with me is I always, always remembered seeing the kids who were coming from all over the country with their marching bands. And I was always like, who are these people? Who does that? Like, it's fascinating. Not with contempt. Just like it was like coming from Mars to me.

[10:49] Meg: Because obviously we don't have a marching band. We don't have a football field. You have to have like a field to have a marching band.

[10:56] Jessica: Right. And I was just like, I didn't. It's not that I didn't get it. It was that like the outfits, the doing things in formation that way, like being so proficient at an instrument but having to. It was like watching a bunch of people walking and chewing gum and patting themselves on the head at this. I was like, how do you do all of that at once? So they were kind of like interesting

[11:20] Meg: and mysterious and the weather. Cold, breezy. They're leaves. Thanksgiving has a very particular kind of. Yes, it's Thanksgiving.

[11:31] Jessica: New York Thanksgiving. Yes it is. It's cold, but the leaves are still swirling on the ground. So there's the, the knowledge that it's fall, but winter is right there because it's cold enough for winter. But you still have some of the trappings of fall around. And the way that the parade ends with Santa as the last float, it was always like, okay, fall's over. Here we are. That's it exactly.

[11:58] Meg: Well, thank you for painting that picture.

[12:01] Jessica: You're welcome. Is that what I was supposed to do? Was that, was that the assignment?

[12:05] Meg: No, that's the assignment. Okay, I'm not going to give my source Because I think it will become obvious.

[12:11] Jessica: Oh, I thought this is like a Deep Throat thing. Like, I'm not revealing my source.

[12:17] Meg: On Thanksgiving Day, November 24, 1983, at 9. 00am, while their parents were either packing up the car to drive to Grandma's or setting the table for when their guests will arrive, millions of kids hunkered down in front of the TV to watch Sesame Street. Obviously, you did not. You were 13 years old. The episode that day was sponsored by the number 5 and letters J and M. Since 1969, Sesame street had been essential viewing for preschoolers. Airing on PBS without commercials, each hour episode was a combination of 30 second to five minute segments that told their own little story. Some segments were animated, some were live action, and some included Jim Henson's Muppets. Yay. And your favorite Muppet. We've talked about this animal. Did you say oh, I mean, did I make that up?

[13:17] Jessica: Well, that's. That. Were the. Were those Muppets on Sesame street, though?

[13:22] Meg: Animal was on Sesame Street.

[13:24] Jessica: My favorite was Oscar the Grouch. But that should absolutely surprise no one, Right?

[13:28] Meg: Okay. Obviously, Oscar the Grouch. Okay. The set looked like a neighborhood street in Brooklyn, and many scenes took place on the stoop of a brownstone and. And at a Corner grocery store.

[13:41] Jessica: Mr. Hooper's grocery store.

[13:43] Meg: Now, what is so interesting to me was I was watching Sesame street when we first moved to New York, and I moved from Austin, Texas, which at that time was about as Leave it to Beaver suburbia as you could possibly conceive of in your brain. And to come to New York, I'm like, oh, I recognize this. I've seen it on Sesame Street.

[14:10] Jessica: That's so cute. Yeah. Aw, Meg, you were primed, you were prepped, and then you even wound up with a house with a stoop.

[14:20] Meg: Aw, Ma. The live action characters were a diverse urban group. Bob Gordon, Maria, Susan, Luis and Mr. Hooper were all kind adults who lived on Sesame street and interacted with the Muppets, some of whom represented kids at different ages developmentally. Big Bird and cookie monster are six years old. Grover is four. Oscar the grouch is 43.

[14:52] Jessica: Yeah, that's. I was just gonna say, like, I don't think he's a kid unless I.

[14:57] Meg: And there's a lot of argument over the age thing, and production won't go on the. So that's just left all of us guessing. But one thing is certain, that live action adults educationally and emotionally guide the Muppets as if they are children.

[15:13] Jessica: Yes, that's. You Know what? So true. And isn't it bizarre? I've never even thought of that. But yes, that's exactly what they were doing. Like.

[15:21] Meg: Right. And I mean, I'm sorry Grover is four, but he's also a waiter.

[15:26] Jessica: Yeah. I mean, restaurant. Like, it's so phenomenal.

[15:31] Meg: Yes. Although Bart and Ernie, I mean mean, they live.

[15:34] Jessica: They're.

[15:34] Meg: They're with each other.

[15:35] Jessica: Yeah, they're.

[15:36] Meg: And they have their own home.

[15:37] Jessica: Yeah.

[15:37] Meg: They're roommates.

[15:38] Jessica: Yeah.

[15:39] Meg: They.

[15:39] Jessica: I mean, at. At least in their twenties.

[15:43] Meg: If not, I think developmentally it's eight.

[15:47] Jessica: Yeah, but.

[15:48] Meg: But no, I mean the. Really.

[15:52] Jessica: He's grumpy as hell.

[15:53] Meg: Snarky. Yeah.

[15:54] Jessica: And very into the pigeon dance. And so he had the accoutrement. He had the shoes. He was able to get himself. Pigeon dance shoes.

[16:02] Meg: Yeah. So maybe this age thing is just silly. And the fact that they said Cookie Monster was six, but then he says, me love cookies. Six year old. Did you say that?

[16:10] Jessica: No, but he's a monster who's six.

[16:13] Meg: So maybe Monster. There you go. Maybe monsters do.

[16:17] Jessica: I don't know. But I loved one of the brilliant things about that show that you just reminded me of talking about Grover, who I loved so much. I had a Super Grover. Yes. I had a stuffed Super Grover for a very long time. Loved. They did Muppet piece theater.

[16:36] Meg: Oh, so funny.

[16:37] Jessica: Do you remember that?

[16:38] Meg: Yeah.

[16:38] Jessica: And Cookie Monster would introduce it. Like Alastair Cookie was. I'm Alastair Cookie. And there was an episode where Grover was doing Upstairs Downstairs and he was like, now I go up the stairs. He's so good. Now I go down the stairs. There's a lesson there. Yes. And to this day I have not forgotten it. I'm sorry. Alfie got really agitated with the Grover voice.

[17:04] Meg: I'm sorry, dude.

[17:05] Jessica: Yeah, it was awesome.

[17:07] Meg: I mean, we have to do a story on Masterpiece Theater at some point.

[17:10] Jessica: I couldn't agree with you more.

[17:12] Meg: Okay. Put a pin in that.

[17:13] Jessica: And I think that would be like to do together because there were so many shows. Yeah, right.

[17:19] Meg: I watched Upstairs Downstairs.

[17:21] Jessica: Yes, of course. Did you see the reboot of Upstairs Downstairs? And they did. Oh, it's worth seeing.

[17:28] Meg: Yeah.

[17:28] Jessica: Anyway, for another day, back to Sorry.

[17:32] Meg: Okay, back to. But another PBS show, the Children's Television Workshop, under executive director Joan Ganz Cooney produced Sesame Street. Their goal was to teach the Alphabet numbers, vocabulary, shapes and basic reasoning skills with wit. The writers were not educators. They were comedians who were able to identify preschoolers, interests, low income children who had less preschool program opportunities, especially benefited. The show also appealed to older kids and parents. The show hoped to encourage co viewing by including more sophisticated humor, cultural references, and celebrity guests. In spite of its high ratings and overwhelmingly positive reviews, the federal government removed its funding in 1981.

[18:31] Jessica: Hello, Reagan era.

[18:34] Meg: Fortunately, Sesame street had already captured America's heart, and the CTW was able to fund the show through product licensing and book royalties. So on that Thanksgiving morning in 1983, children watched Gordon talk about being happy with Mr. Forgetful. He can't remember what he felt like two seconds ago, so Gordon has to keep reminding him about his feelings.

[19:04] Jessica: It was like baby memento.

[19:06] Meg: Yeah, there you go. Next up, Ernie directed a play about feelings starring Bert dressed like Cupid. And this takes place on proscenium stage. Bert got, like, the wings and, you know, the cute little cupid halo thing. Bert is a little grumpy shocker and doesn't know what love is until he thinks of all the things he loves. Pigeons, rocks, paper clips, oatmeal. And his friend Ernie.

[19:41] Jessica: Aw, it's so sweet. That is beyond sweet.

[19:44] Meg: But he's still angry about his costume. Next up, Grover and Cookie Monster sing about being fuzzy and blue. Then Madeline Kahn and Grover sing the echo song. See, this is all pre Elmo. So Grover was kind of that.

[20:04] Jessica: Grover was the innocent present. He was the innocent uncle.

[20:08] Meg: He's in a lot. He's in a lot of these skits. There are then clips of a polar bear. The polar bear in Central Park Zoo, and a set of frogs. Aw. In the next segment, Kermit is a newscaster reporting from the princess's castle by process of elimination, which is the lesson of the story. Basically, she's saying, like, I'm here to find my suitor, who. Who is my prince. And there's a gaggle of guys out of little Muppet Men. And she's like, I'll give you a clue. He doesn't wear glasses. So the guy with the. The Muppet with glasses goes, oh, well, I guess it's not me, you know? And they're funny little things like that. So it's the process of elimination. And through process of elimination, we discover she wants to marry Kermit because she thinks he'll turn into a prince.

[21:04] Jessica: Oh, stop it.

[21:05] Meg: And so then she kisses him on his little nose, and instead, she turns into a frog. And she's fine with that.

[21:13] Jessica: Oh, that's so cute.

[21:15] Meg: So sweet. And then Kermit is like, hello. He wasn't at all interested in her when she was a princess, but now that She's a frog. It's a different.

[21:25] Jessica: That's adorable.

[21:27] Meg: Towards the end of the hour long show, there's another live action scene on Sesame Street. The adults are sitting around a picnic table talking and Big Bird comes up to them. He has drawn portraits of each of the grown ups and he hands them out one by one. The last portrait he's drawn is of Mr. Hooper, the owner of the corner store.

[21:50] Jessica: Oh no. You can take a minute.

[21:52] Meg: It's okay. So Big Bird has a long and warm history with Mr. Hooper. The character of Mr. Hooper appeared in the very first episode of Sesame street and was created by producer and writer John Stone. John wanted the proprietor of the corner store on Sesame street to be an older man and Jewish. And they found the perfect man to play him. Will Lee. Will Lee was a character actor. Tons of theater, that was really his thing. But he. You also see him in commercials and he'd been blacklisted during the McCarthy era for refusing to cooperate with the House UN American activities.

[22:35] Jessica: Oh my God. Wow.

[22:37] Meg: He played Mr. Hooper with his spectacles and bow tie as a curmudgeonly good hearted grandpa back in 1977. The character of Mr. Hooper, which would have been when we were watching, maybe. So his character's like in his late 60s, right? He admits to his friends on Sesame street that he never got his high school diploma, so he's going back to night school to get his GED. And in the following episodes you see Mr. Hooper studying hard and circling things in his workbooks until he graduates and everyone on Sesame street celebrates with him.

[23:21] Jessica: I'm absolutely now on the floor.

[23:24] Meg: He had, like I said, a very special relationship with Big Bird, who always mispronounced his name as Mr. Looper or Mr. Cooper. On the Thanksgiving episode in 1983, Big Bird gives all the grownups the portraits he's made of them. And the last one is his portrait of Mr. Hooper. He says he's going to go over to the store and give it to Mr. Hooper personally. The grown ups all get quiet and awkward and sad. Then Maria tells big bird that Mr. Hooper has died. And it's like she's reminding him of that. Like that he knew it before or someone had told him that before. But she says, I think she says, Remember Big Bird, Mr. Hooper has died. Then Big Bird asks when he's coming back. Susan and David and Gordon all explain that he is never coming back because he can't. When Big Bird starts to get upset, they tell him he will be okay. Big Bird says he doesn't like it. David tells big bird that Mr. Hooper left the store to him. David in his will, so he will keep looking out for Big Bird. They talk about how things will never be the same, but they will always love Mr. Hooper a lot and they will always have their memories of him. When Big Bird asks why, Gordon explains that it has to be this way. Just because. And they repeat that. Big Bird goes, just because. And they say, just because. Then they all encircle Big Bird while he processes this. I can't even look at you right now.

[25:14] Jessica: Are you trying to kill me?

[25:16] Meg: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay. When Willie died of a heart attack in real life, which was the previous year, five days after he was in the Thanksgiving Day parade, the producers of Sesame street had a choice to recast the role of Mr. Hooper or just write a storyline that he retired or moved away. But instead they decided that children could handle the truth. And this simple scene in which Big Bird moves through denial and anger, arriving at acceptance with the help of trusted, empathetic grownups, is one of the most affecting scenes ever put on TV. The Mr. Hooper segment of that episode is not the end of the episode. They follow it with a story about a newborn baby, Leandra Williams. And Big Bird says how amazing it is that one day the baby wasn't there and the next day he is. The episode closes with a close up video of a stem of a yellow daisy producing dew almost like tears. As the camera pans out, we see that the daisy is growing out of a brick wall in Brooklyn. The episode was intentionally aired on Thanksgiving with the thought that families would be gathered together in case children had questions. The portraits used in the episode were drawn by Carol Spinney, who played Big Bird. And the portrait of Mr. Hooper still hangs above Big Bird's nest. Carol said of the Mr. Hooper episode, quote, when we finished that scene, there wasn't one of us whose face wasn't streaked with tears. You can tell that Bob is having a really hard time keeping it together like we are right now in 1970, Will Lee, so this is a year into the show, told Time magazine, quote, I was delighted to take the role of Mr. Hooper, the gruff grocer with a warm heart. It's a big part and it allows a lot of latitude. But the show has something extra, that sense that you sometimes get from great theater, the feeling that its influence never stops. I'm sorry,

[27:46] Jessica: I can't.

[27:47] Meg: I love you.

[27:48] Jessica: I'm gonna kill you.

[27:51] Meg: I mean, and we were 13.

[27:54] Jessica: I remember that episode. The more you talked it. Cause I saw it. Not on Thanksgiving. I saw it afterwards. Well, because we wouldn't have.

[28:02] Meg: Yeah, we wouldn't have watched it that morning. You grew up with Mr. Hooper.

[28:06] Jessica: I remember when I saw that episode because it was. As you started to talk about it. And I know that I'm. I am sorry. Cause it didn't help you, but that's when I started crying. Is. I remember as an adult watching that, a young adult and being stricken, and it was a childhood loss. So watching it. You know, so much of this, this podcast is about what did we experience? And then as adults, how do we look at it? And so that episode, as an adult, I looked at my relationship to that show, and I think that the severity, how extreme my reaction was at the time. And now, you know, 30 years later, just hearing you talk about it and losing it is testament to two things. How the producers and the actors handled that particular show. But they created a world and an environment where it was possible to do the impossible, which was talk about death with children and make it safe. I don't think any entity. I was gonna like, say TV show, like a film, tv, anything has ever done that like that. And the flower that you described, and instantly I'm like, it's big, Burt. Cause it's yellow and it's drying. I'm like, they. They were masterful.

[29:51] Meg: Still are.

[29:52] Jessica: Yeah. Although I gotta say, I was never a big fan of Elmo. I'm out there with it. Okay, fine, I said it.

[29:57] Meg: But with that aside, and that's true in the. Certainly. I don't know when they started with the Elmo thing. I. I love Elmo. Alice loves Elmo. But I, as a parent, I was not thrilled with how much Elmo there was. There's basically the second half of the show was a 30 minute Elmo's World. You can't move your kid away from that. The cool thing when they're just short little segments is like, if you don't want your kid to watch an hour of tv, you just turn it off after a segment. Right. But you can't turn it off in the middle of Elmo's World. So once Elmo's World starts, you are there for that half hour. Which I just felt like, guys don't do that to us. We give us some options here.

[30:40] Jessica: You know, that is such an interesting take on it. I just found the character deeply irritating. I don't know if I ever told

[30:46] Meg: you I interviewed Elmo when he had. When he has that funny thing with a Rock?

[30:52] Jessica: No, I don't know what you're talking about.

[30:53] Meg: Yes, you do.

[30:54] Jessica: A funny thing with a rock.

[30:56] Meg: Yes, I'll show it to you. You can find on YouTube. It is so funny. You're gonna love Elmo.

[31:01] Jessica: Okay, well, I'm ready to be un Oscar the Grouched on this one.

[31:07] Meg: How well they did their job. I mean. Oh, yes, yes.

[31:12] Jessica: Did I ever tell you that I interviewed with them?

[31:15] Meg: Oh, to work on Sesame Street.

[31:17] Jessica: To work in Sesame street publishing. Cause when you said that they. That's how they're funding. Right. So I actually had an interview at the Jim Henson headquarters, which was a townhouse on the Upper east side. You know, very stately looking, but very funny. When you walk into the, you know, marble floored entry to this beautiful townhouse, it was inlaid to be Kermit's face. So it was like, you know, a classic black and white pattern. But then you had Kermit in sort of like a crest of some kind. And that of all of the things that I ever interviewed for and didn't get or got a job, but not the one that I want, all that, that was the one job that I didn't get that I wanted. And to this day I'm like, oh, that would have been really special.

[32:11] Meg: And it's so interesting too. I mean, I know that a lot of children's programming puts a lot of thought into what they're doing. Again, as a parent, when, you know my kids, I didn't let them watch the Disney Channel. Why? Because I grew up on Sesame street and that in comparison, the Disney Channel is schlock.

[32:34] Jessica: Well, and we know in hindsight, you know, what being a Disney kid did to those kids, which was not wholesome. So there must have been something about their vibe that was easy to pick up on.

[32:46] Meg: And the whole thing about, like, here, this just really thoughtful, well intentioned, generous, empathetic is just so the opposite of so much of what we see as popular right now.

[33:01] Jessica: I was watching something that was leaning into how culturally everyone needs right now to be re educated on compassion. It is the number one most felt loss culturally, right now.

[33:21] Meg: I will say this, and it will not surprise you, I think, when I say this, if you happen to be going through a grieving process right now, look for this episode on YouTube because I found it incredibly affecting for anyone of any age. And the very pure message of just because really hit home.

[33:44] Jessica: That's beautiful. It's. Don't fight it. This is life. It is what it is. That's so beautiful. And wrenching. And I am really looking forward to watching it and having the catharsis I so richly deserve. I'm so interested by this topic and it's very hard to research, and so I have some material, but this is also sort of a follow up. Vito Bruno, very hard to find more on him. I think he has scored. Scrubbed his background.

[34:35] Meg: Well, I think he has too, because I was trying to just put things on the Instagram and he very much wants to be known as a politician now.

[34:44] Jessica: Yes, you cannot.

[34:45] Meg: Republican politician.

[34:47] Jessica: The only thing I've been. Yeah, the. The only thing I've been able to find. He was quoted in the New York Times when a murder took place that he was not implicated in. Okay, right. And I'm like. But that's close enough to be like, did something come after that you were

[35:08] Meg: asked about a murder that you were not implicated in?

[35:14] Jessica: Resounding, no. So it's a very, very weird thing. So I just wanted to acknowledge that I didn't forget about it.

[35:22] Meg: Okay.

[35:23] Jessica: But I think that was a big, big scrub. A dub dub, big time. We have discussed a little bit about what I'm touching on today, which is my favorite restaurant and my story today, again with Luchow's.

[35:38] Meg: Oh, wonderful.

[35:39] Jessica: Luchow's of my childhood Christmases. For those who have not listened to my Luchow's related episode, Luchow's was a restaurant on. At 110 East 14th Street. That was a German institution. Started in 1882. It was right next door to a theater. It was a glamorous, lavish, over the top, gorgeous place where actors and actresses and politicians and the who's who would dine.

[36:13] Meg: What avenue between.

[36:17] Jessica: I think that's like between third and fourth, because it's where the NYU dorm is now.

[36:23] Meg: Okay, where is it in relation to the old Palladium next door? Got it.

[36:29] Jessica: The old Palladium was what the theater became when it was the new Palladium.

[36:34] Meg: Now there's a Trader Joe's there.

[36:36] Jessica: I know. And what was great about the theater, which I've talked about in the past, I know, is that there was a tunnel that connected the theater to Luchow's so the chorus girls could go from the theater to the restaurant and not have too many stage door johnnies running after them.

[36:55] Meg: Amazing.

[36:56] Jessica: But it was an amazing, amazing place. And it lasted exactly 100 years because in 1982 it closed at that location. It lived a little bit longer at another location, and then it was in Times Square. But it was never what it was. And that was the end of an incredible era. But right when it closed in 1982, Luchow's became something that I never knew about. And it's part of the history of this building that became what is now the NYU dorm. In November of 1982, the palace opened at 110 E. 14th St. It was a nightlife hybrid. It was the brainchild of John Addison. It was supposed to be a mishmash, a hybrid, an entertainment destination that was part supper club, part disco, part cabaret venue and part gay nightlife destination.

[38:07] Meg: Interesting.

[38:08] Jessica: It was a. You know, I don't remember who I was talking to about this recently, but we were talking about going out and going dancing and all of that. And a lot of the places where we went, like there was nothing else there. And the idea of the destination restaurant, the destination club, is no longer. But you would go. And it was such a schlep. And it was in such a place where, like, there's nothing else going on. You knew that you were there for the night. And the way that the venue offered, whatever it offered, had that in mind anyway, so that's what the palace was going to be. So In November of 1982, it opened and closed in 1983.

[38:55] Meg: Did it last a year?

[38:57] Jessica: Just. And amazingly, also, it didn't tear down the beauty of Luchow's. It kept it. So it wasn't like, now we're going to make this into an industrial. Whatever, whatever. It kept the paneling and the drapings and all of that because it was also a space for tea dances.

[39:17] Meg: Who knew?

[39:18] Jessica: So it was opened by John Addison, who I will describe in a moment. He's connected to another one of our episodes about the Clash at Bonds International. And promoter John Blair was in charge of getting people in the door. He had Sunday night tea dances there. He advertised the venue as the new place to be on Sunday nights. There was also Wednesday nights with a K, like of the Round Table at the palace with promoter Steve Straub. And they even had a membership. If you subscribe to their membership mailing, you had discounts and all these things to go there.

[40:02] Meg: Sort of like a club.

[40:03] Jessica: Exactly. And there's even a surviving letter. And I can show this to you,

[40:08] Meg: share it with you.

[40:09] Jessica: And again, think about this. This is 1982. Think about what I'm about to say. A newsletter that went out from Peter Straub, or rather a letter that went out from Peter Straub to different businesses saying, dear Gay Marketers. And it encouraged them to join the mailing list. There was drag, there was Cabaret. There were performances by women. It wasn't all men, it wasn't all drag, who were comedians. It was a little bit of everything, but very lgbtq actually, at the time, LGBT focused. The problem with the palace was that it opened. What happened in 1982 and 83? Meg.

[40:56] Meg: AIDS.

[40:56] Jessica: Yeah. It opened at the exact same moment that AIDS was identified as aids. And so it closed very quickly, as a lot of hotbeds of gay activity did at the time. So, yes, it coincided with the onset of the public awareness of AIDS as AIDS and not as a gay cancer. That might be very limited. It didn't really change the landscape of gay culture. It didn't do anything that really could be remembered, but maybe not. And that's what I want to find out. I want to find out more about John Addison and Peter Straub and these people who had this. Can you imagine having the vision to take over Luchow's and say, we're going to make this into a combination of Luchow's, what it was as a dining establishment, and the theater that used to be next door? Like, that's such huge, big thinking.

[42:07] Meg: What it is, is it's fabulous.

[42:10] Jessica: You're right, it is absolutely, literally, absolutely fabulous. Our tie in with our episode about the Clash. As we know, Bond Clothing wound up being taken over that space, that the space where Bond clothing was.

[42:30] Meg: This is in Times Square.

[42:31] Jessica: Yes. After a few years of vacancy, it was rechristened Bond International Casino and it was supposed to be the largest disco that the world had ever seen. And the club was co owned by John Addison and Morris Brom. So John Addison was a guy with vision, with a capital V. He wanted

[42:53] Meg: bigger, better, flashier, and was not interested in letting disco die in the mid-80s. It sounds like, well, it that actually

[43:03] Jessica: Bonn opened in 1980, so it was right before. So he had had enough of a success that doing the Luchows takeover as the palace seemed like it would be a good idea. And I love this. I didn't know what the Bond International Casino was like inside because all that I knew was, you know, they had this punk band and the marquee, right. It featured accoutrements such as a quote, musical staircase. Ooh, Fountains. Retrieved from the set of the Liberace show.

[43:35] Meg: Oh, my goodness. David.

[43:37] Jessica: And the Fountains usually ended up filled with near naked patrons. They had a wide ranging music policy usually spun by resident DJ Kenny Carpenter. However, the joint never really caught on because of its seedy location. So it did catch on, but it didn't catch on the way they wanted it to, and the space was too much to fill, and that's why it became a venue. That was how it wound up being turned into that.

[44:07] Meg: And what's there now? Do we know?

[44:10] Jessica: I don't know. It's a very good.

[44:11] Meg: I'll look that up and post it.

[44:13] Jessica: It is a very good.

[44:14] Meg: I want to visualize.

[44:15] Jessica: And actually, this article that I have here talks about, you know, some shenanigans with the FDNY and, you know, the building. The building was a hotbed of, again, shenanigans. But anyway, so I'm intrigued by John Addison. I want to know more about him. I doubt that he has scrubbed anything, but he's a little bit hard to look up. He is what I think of as a really typical 80s impresario. There were these guys who had vision and they. I think because of the financial boom in the city, they could do it. They could go. They could go and make it happen. I love this whole world that I think I'm sort of picking at the surface of, and I want to see.

[45:00] Meg: It sounds like a fantasy. I want to see the interiors or even a sketch of them.

[45:06] Jessica: Yes. And great word, fantasy. I'm so intrigued by fantasists that. We'll see. We'll see what comes next. But anyway, that is a little teaser for maybe next time. Cool.

[45:22] Meg: And we should find a destination place here in the city this summer.

[45:27] Jessica: Meg, I would love that. You know what? You and I have not had, like, a ridiculous outing in a long, long time. Let's choose such a place. You know, this is a summer that deserves to be a summer of fun. I think fun has to be had.

[45:46] Meg: Agreed.

[45:47] Jessica: So let's figure out what that is. And even if it means that we need to go to another borough on the ferry. On the ferry.

[46:06] Meg: Well, both of our stories took place at around the same time in New York City. Now, come on. I mean, you were talking about Christmas time at Luchow's in 1982. Well, which would have been just a month after, well, Lee passed away.

[46:26] Jessica: Well, actually, 1982, November is when the palace opened.

[46:30] Meg: Oh, okay.

[46:31] Jessica: Yes. My childhood there was really in the 70s and before 1982. But, yeah, I think that our tie in is that we were talking about these holiday meals and family and where did you do it and what was it like? But something just occurred to me which might be totally off base, and I know that that the episode that you described, which had us both completely bawling, was because Mr. Hooper died, but I'm wondering About the willingness to go deep into the subject of death and that that was a time when this city had death all around us. And I'm wondering who at Children's Television Workshop and who at Jim Henson Productions and all of that, who might have said, this is actually something that might be touching kids lives in a way that, you know, we're only beginning to imagine, because who knows who's in their world, who is suddenly, very suddenly disappearing?

[47:36] Meg: That's such a good point. And then the flip of that, of course, is just the fantasy that is Sesame Street. I would have died to visit Sesame Street.

[47:46] Jessica: Me too. Me too.

[47:48] Meg: But, you know, that would have been a destination.

[47:50] Jessica: I. I wonder if I would have even loved it as a child as much as I would have as an adult. Because, like, as a child, you look at it and you're like, oh, it's Sesame Street. It's a place. It's a thing. And as an adult, to appreciate, like, these people. These are visionaries who invented a world.

[48:09] Meg: And I love that there's so much history still on the set that it just builds over time. Like a neighborhood.

[48:17] Jessica: Exactly. It is really beautiful. When you said that about the picture, the portrait above Big Bird's Nest, I was like, again with the crying. I can't add.

[48:30] Meg: All right, so let's pick a destination place.

[48:34] Jessica: Yes.

[48:35] Meg: Where we can go and have fun. We did that last summer, so now it's time to do that.

[48:39] Jessica: It's. It is time. Have you ever been to Alice Adams House on Staten Island? No. It's magical. Maybe that's a place you could take

[48:52] Meg: the Staten island ferry.

[48:53] Jessica: That's what I was thinking. Well, no, but that's exactly. Yes. That's what I'm thinking, that we could take the ferry, because we are both now big ferry enthusiasts, and there's also some great food on Staten Island. But Alice Adams House, we could talk about it on the next episode, but it is a preserve and a historic house, and I think she's a wonderful person to be connected to, for us to connect to with this podcast. She was an iconoclastic woman who lived her own life on her own terms.

[49:31] Meg: All right, well, that's a teaser.

[49:33] Jessica: Indeed. Before we forget, Meg.

[49:37] Meg: Yes.

[49:38] Jessica: You know, you have been so great about asking people, so now I'm going to ask people. Ready, guys? We are. No, we are not. I'm not dragging Meg into this. I am begging. I am officially begging our dear beloved listeners, please find it in your hearts. And I know. Look, if you've been listening to this whole episode. I'm so inspired by Robbie Hoffman and how she raised a quarter of a million dollars in 10 minutes. I am now going to pressure and beg and wheedle and do all those things. Please. It will make a massive difference for us and then eventually for you as our listeners. If you could do the simple, simple thing of just going to Apple Podcasts and writing a review and it could be really brief. You don't have to write the great American novel. Just a brief and we hope, glowing review of the podcast. It, it does so much for us. It does so much for the algorithm and it really helps us get a broader audience. That's the thing. And a broader audience eventually will mean more money, more fun, more stuff that we can offer. So a little tiny, no financial investment investment of maybe a minute to do this will make a huge difference. So in advance, we thank.

[51:19] Meg: You. It.