[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:18] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City,

[00:26] Meg: where we still live and where we podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:32] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:35] Meg: Happy summer time. Oh, my God, the weather is perfect.

[00:40] Jessica: This is.

[00:40] Meg: I don't want to jinx it.

[00:41] Jessica: No, it was. Don't. Don't even look. But it is. This is the. The day you wish for in New York City. Sunny, high of 77, currently 72. Clear, cool breeze.

[00:58] Meg: Perfect time to go out on a roof or walk a dog.

[01:01] Jessica: Those are the things I'm planning to do.

[01:04] Meg: I love that for you. Thank you. I am going into tech again. Oh, my God. For the show that I am in. But that's fine. That is fine. Because I'm leaving enough time. I might even be able to walk over there from here if we get this done pronto.

[01:21] Jessica: I am feeling really positive about that today. I'm feeling, you know, I got four hours of sleep, yet miraculously feeling positive. Feeling peppy.

[01:32] Meg: Fabulous. I wanted to share a missive that I got from one of our BFFs, Andrea. Different Andrea. Oh, so this is a different Andrea. Oh, not our usual Andrea. This is. Should we call her New Andrea? New Andrea. Awesome. I posted because you talked about Michael Jeter last week.

[01:55] Jessica: Ooh.

[01:56] Meg: Also, Michael Hicks was like, michael Jeter is amazing. You're about to have so much fun learning about Michael Jeter. And then I started remembering. Wait, was he in Green Mile? I think he was, yes. I think he loved a mouse. Am I making that up?

[02:09] Jessica: No, no.

[02:10] Meg: Okay.

[02:10] Jessica: No, no. I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right.

[02:13] Meg: And I found the clip that you described last week from Fisher King, and they had the entire clip on Instagram, so I posted that on our stories. And new Andrea. It's magical.

[02:24] Jessica: It's magical, isn't it?

[02:26] Meg: And yeah, New Andrea. Wrote in. Just on my way over here. Wrote in. Omg. I'm so glad you've posted this. I listened yesterday on my drive and was going to look it up. I mean, that scene was pure gold. I also want to thank you for your content. I love your show so much, and it frequently has me going down the rabbit holes. Kembra was new to me, and her words regarding AIDS had me adding Paris is Burning to my cue to rewatch.

[02:58] Jessica: That's so gratifying.

[03:01] Meg: Sure is.

[03:01] Jessica: I'm so happy, Andrea. That this is a rabbit hole that you've chosen to go down because it's so rewarding, and it will just keep going. It doesn't end. And I really do suggest for anyone who liked that there is so much Michael Jeter material online, you can just lose yourself in his performances forever. And he did a performance from Grand Hotel for the Tony Awards.

[03:27] Meg: Yes, that is a. I can post that slight correction.

[03:32] Jessica: Oh, please.

[03:33] Meg: I believe you mentioned that he died from aids. He was HIV positive and openly so. And he also had substance abuse problems.

[03:44] Jessica: Yes, he. He had done one of his acceptance speeches talking about the magic of aa,

[03:49] Meg: but he died of epilepsy.

[03:51] Jessica: Get out.

[03:52] Meg: So I don't know if that's related to either of those conditions, but that was the epilepsy. He died of epilepsy when he was 50, for crying out loud.

[04:01] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[04:03] Meg: Not okay.

[04:04] Jessica: Not okay.

[04:04] Meg: But left a genius. So much for us to enjoy, which we can be grateful for.

[04:10] Jessica: I couldn't agree with you more.

[04:21] Meg: We've talked about Nantucket on this podcast.

[04:23] Jessica: Indeed we have.

[04:24] Meg: Remember that story about the woman who

[04:26] Jessica: got lost and the pile of clothes? That was creeperific.

[04:33] Meg: Now, I love Nantucket. I've only been a handful of times, but it's definitely a place where New Yorkers go. Would you agree?

[04:42] Jessica: I do agree.

[04:43] Meg: Tell us about your feelings about Nantucket. Do you have experiences?

[04:47] Jessica: I don't have deep experiences, but I will tell you, funny enough, I lent my dear friend and dear friend of the podcast Busy, a book years ago by the amusing and prolific Eleanor Lippman called Isabel's Bed. And if you haven't read it and you're ready for a beach read, because it's about to be the summer. It is the summer. Definitely pick this up. It's great. Eleanor Lippman is great for that. But this book takes place in Nantucket. And so my first association, because Busy just returned it to me after so many years, and I started reading it again, and I was like, oh, I love this. So at the moment, that's my association. I've gone to visit friends there. I've never. You know, my parents didn't have a house there. I've never had a house there. But my. My experiences there have been beachy and idyllic. Although one time on the beach with my friend Kelly, we left our towel for a moment. Yes. And we turn around and Kelly starts screaming. And I don't even know what's going on. And then I look, and there's a beast. There's a beast. That's like just about on. And it's like this long, low, very bushy, hairy creature. And we're now flapping around like two lunatics, shrieking, running around. And we're. We're so absurd that the beast gets scared and runs off.

[06:18] Meg: What was it?

[06:19] Jessica: Some kind of, like, uber weasel that is from that area. And we were just like, what the fuck is that? Motherfucker. So you scared him? Well, I think he scared us. And I was telling a dear friend of mine who lives in Massachusetts about what we saw, and she's like, oh, that's just a fill in the blank, weaselly, weaselly thing. And I was like, don't you dare take this lightly. So those are two. Two associations for you?

[06:52] Meg: Love it. My sources are Beach Weasel.

[06:58] Jessica: If one of your sources is a beach weasel, I'd be very excited.

[07:02] Meg: I actually think you have to do a cartoon of the beach weasel from memory.

[07:06] Jessica: I can.

[07:06] Meg: Please do.

[07:07] Jessica: I can. And it's. My memory is, like, with fangs dripping with blood and claws.

[07:12] Meg: No, I think that has to happen. All right, I. I will.

[07:15] Jessica: I will. That's a great project for. I'm so tired. I don't even know what work I can do today, but I can do Beach Weasel.

[07:24] Meg: Awesome. My sources are Vanity Fair and nantucket magazine. In 1982, Hoyt Richards, a sophomore football player at Princeton, came into New York to see a doctor about shoulder problems he was having. Hoyt stayed with his friend Frederick Von Meer at his apartment on 54th and 2nd. He'd known Frederick for years. They had met on Nantucket, where Hoyt and his family spent their summers. One day on the beach, Frederick, who was in his 30s, threw his towel down next to Hoyt, who was 16, and they started talking. It was 1978, and astrology, Eastern religions, yoga and health food were offering fresh perspectives to people disillusioned with traditional American culture and values. Frederick had an apartment on India street in town and invited people over every night. They'd drink beer and hang out. It was quite the party hub.

[08:34] Jessica: Wait, so he's 16 and he had his own apartment?

[08:36] Meg: No, Frederick is in his 30s. Hoyt is 16.

[08:40] Jessica: Thank you.

[08:41] Meg: Frederick's live in guests would pay him to stay there and help keep the place clean and prepped for the next party. Frederick wouldn't have to spend a dime. Kind of clever. He just made sure pretty people were there. He told his friends they could invite people, but quote, only the beauties. Never their, quote, less than beautiful friends.

[09:07] Jessica: Well, that's what we do with everything we do, isn't it?

[09:09] Meg: We.

[09:09] Jessica: We subscribe to the same. What a dick. Jesus Christ.

[09:15] Meg: Okay, and our 16 year old Hoyt was beautiful. He was tall, muscular and blonde. And everything came pretty easily to him. People treated him well. People liked him. School was easy for him. He was good at football. He never had to work terribly hard for anything, which actually made him feel pretty insecure. Instead of feeling superior to those who had less valuable God given traits, he felt he hadn't earned anything. He had. He'd been coming into New York to visit Frederick since he started at Princeton. Frederick had an awesome apartment, remember, on 54th Street. Painted purple and pink with all kinds of mystical gems and sculptures. You look concerned.

[10:12] Jessica: Wait, wait, wait. How did we get from Nantucket to 54th Street?

[10:15] Meg: So in 1978, they meet when Hoyt is 16.

[10:19] Jessica: Right.

[10:20] Meg: And so they met on Nantucket. Right. But then he goes to Princeton. And so his summer friend Frederick, who he sees every summer in Nantucket, Frederick lives full time in New York. So once Hoyt is at school in Princeton, he starts coming into the city to visit Frederick during the school year.

[10:40] Jessica: Je comprent.

[10:41] Meg: Cool. And you heard what I said about Frederick's apartment in 54. Purple crystals. Mystical.

[10:49] Jessica: Woo Woo.

[10:50] Meg: Exactly.

[10:51] Jessica: Okay.

[10:51] Meg: There were always people staying with him who would sleep on futon mats in the living room, kind of like an ashram. And Hoyt loved coming into the city. Now he's like 18. Because Frederick had a direct line into Studio 54.

[11:11] Jessica: I'm not gonna burst your bubble because everything that you're about to say, I don't know.

[11:16] Meg: Okay.

[11:17] Jessica: But I suddenly realized I know who you're talking about.

[11:20] Meg: Oh, fun.

[11:21] Jessica: And I even know what he looks like. Oh, good. And I cannot wait for. For you to put his photo because once you see what Frederick looks like, you're like, oh, Hoyt, you should have run. What is wrong with you? Oh boy. Oh, what a gr. Brava.

[11:38] Meg: All right, now Frederick would gather his group of beauties and they wouldn't have to wait five minutes at that velvet rope before being ushered in to any place. Well, to any place but Studio 54. I mean, now we're in 1982 and that's just really where you want to be if you are an 18 year old kid, right? Or I guess now he's 20. Anyway, no, I think he started going when he was 18. And we'll get to the 1982 story, right?

[12:12] Jessica: 1980 makes sense. Is like the 54 excitement.

[12:17] Meg: Hoyt was blown away by what he saw there. People having Sex on the Dance Floor. Andy Worhol, Liza Minnelli, Truman Capote. It was wild, and after a raucous evening, everyone would go back to Frederick's apartment and talk about philosophy until the sun came up. There weren't a lot of drugs or alcohol, just ideas. And Hoyt loved it. But this particular trip to the city in 1982 was more stressful. The New York surgeon he saw told him that because of his shoulder problems, he'd probably have to quit football. Still reeling from that news, he accompanied another of Frederick's friends, who happened to be an actor, while this guy ran errands around town, one of which was to meet with his commercial agent. While Hoyt was waiting for his friend outside the agent's office, another talent agent walked past him, stopped and asked if he was represented. Before he knew it, Hoyt was on the COVID of Brides magazine with Kathy Ireland. And before long, he was repped by Ford Models and being photographed by Bruce Weber, Richard Avedon, Helmut Newton, Steven Meisel. Almost overnight, he was tagged the first male supermodel in the same class as Cindy Crawford, Naomi Campbell and Christy Turlington. When you hear Hoyt talk about this, it's like he talks about classes, like graduating classes of models, which I guess it totally makes sense. So he was the guy in that particular class.

[14:02] Jessica: Got it.

[14:03] Meg: Once he graduated and moved to New York, he lived at Frederick's place whenever he wasn't traveling. And he traveled more than 330 days a year. When he was back in New York, he stayed in a 3 by 3 foot closet in Frederick's apartment.

[14:18] Jessica: Stop it. Did he have to sleep standing up in a coffin?

[14:21] Meg: I mean. Good point.

[14:23] Jessica: I mean, how do you sleep?

[14:25] Meg: I think all of his stuff was in the three by three, but he slept on a mat. He never slept in a bed.

[14:31] Jessica: That sounds great.

[14:33] Meg: I mean, I think I know where this is going.

[14:36] Jessica: I'm just saying I think it probably

[14:38] Meg: was good for his back. He thought, okay, he was making millions of dollars, but gave most of it to Frederick. When Hoyt first met Freddy, he was on a quest for self improvement, spiritual enlightenment and physical health. Frederick insisted all his friends keep to a very strict diet. And by the way, the diet is really healthy.

[15:05] Jessica: What was that diet and should we be on it?

[15:08] Meg: Yeah, actually it was protein, tons of vegetables, nothing processed. I mean, it's everything you're told to do. Hydration. And Hoyt, you know, he's a disciplined guy. So he like really, really stuck to it. And he looked fucking amazing. And he Was really healthy. Okay, I know. What's not to like, right? I mean, and probably sleeping on the floor is good for your back. And he's traveling everywhere. Why does he need to have an apartment of his own? Right? But now, a few years in to this arrangement, Frederick was talking about polls shifting in the year 2000. And in order to save the world, Hoyt needed to be generous. It would be selfish of him to date women or spend his money or talk to his family or go out to dinner with his agent. So I thought that was sort of interesting, like.

[16:13] Jessica: Oh, you think? No, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[16:16] Meg: Just go with me for a second. I'm just thinking about Hoyt, who everything comes so easily to him, but that actually makes him feel really insecure. So he's trying to improve himself. He's trying so hard to improve himself. He's trying to be. Become enlightened, be a good person, wants

[16:32] Jessica: to make a difference, be healthy.

[16:35] Meg: And now the line that's coming from Frederick is more like, in order to do this, if you don't do this, you're selfish, you're a bad person. So now it's this two sides of the same coin, right?

[16:52] Jessica: Yeah, I guess.

[16:53] Meg: I mean, at its best, you're living your best life, but you do something wrong and suddenly you're a shitty ass person is the message.

[17:02] Jessica: Yes. It seems slightly controlling and contrived. I feel like we've heard this before from a cast a rogues gallery. This is a well worn territory that Frederic is getting into.

[17:16] Meg: Yeah. Also, the world's gonna. It's Y2K too. Pre. Y2K. It's Y2K. Right. And what Frederick was saying was when the poles shift, I'm talking about the north and the south pole.

[17:28] Jessica: I remember when this was a thing and it was like, they're going to flip and we're all gonna die.

[17:33] Meg: Well, specifically, what's gonna happen is the oceans are going to overflow and everything's gonna be underwater except for the mountains.

[17:48] Jessica: Wasn't this a biblical thing?

[17:50] Meg: Well, yeah. Noah's Ark too. So.

[17:52] Jessica: Yes.

[17:53] Meg: Right, so I mean, it exists in.

[17:55] Jessica: The oceans shall rise.

[17:58] Meg: Yeah, yeah. No, no, I mean, it's not fresh, but it's definitely.

[18:03] Jessica: You know what, if you're gonna do something kind of cuckoo and nefarious, go with the hits. You know, that people respond to them. Why reinvent the wheel? And global warming is a thing.

[18:17] Meg: The oceans are rising because the ice caps are melting. I mean, it was a.

[18:22] Jessica: He had enough. There's enough of a tenuous grasp on something to make it sound like it wasn't totally off the deep end.

[18:29] Meg: But he did. Kind of an answer to your implication. He did grab from previous mystics and leaders to get his particular story, Maya Apocalypse. Yeah. Which he professed on his cable access show that aired right after Robin Burr. How did you know?

[18:55] Jessica: Because who else would it be on this show?

[19:00] Meg: And Frederick. And now we're going to talk about what he looks like.

[19:05] Jessica: It's so good. It's so good.

[19:07] Meg: It's so good. Thin, blonde, very tan, with a parrot on each shoulder. He'd had so many facelifts that his teeth kind of protruded from his face.

[19:23] Jessica: Yes. He had that Skeletor look when you have like, like if you've got really like classically good, like, square ish bone structure, but then you get all of those facelifts. Facelifts to the point where your skin is shiny, like, you know that thing that then.

[19:39] Meg: And then tan, tan, tan, and then tan, tan, tan.

[19:42] Jessica: So you really have a Skeletor look. And the other thing about his blonde hair is it was yellow. It wasn't even blonde. It was like this.

[19:51] Meg: I'm going to get to that in a second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, don't let me read about it. All right. So on his cable access, he would speak about the redeeming qualities of the crystals he could provide to those who were ready to hear the truth. Once Frederick and his friends started selling self help tapes and gemstones and astrological readings, they decided it was time to name their group because now they're kind of at business. Before, they were just like a bunch of people hanging out, or as Hoyt said, like a narcissist with an entourage.

[20:28] Jessica: Sounds like a going in a direction.

[20:31] Meg: But at some point it developed and now it's a business and it called itself Eternal Values. This is a quote from Hoyt. Freddy presented the idea that spiritual life didn't have to be heavy and serious. Everything was acceptable. You just had to be sincere and devoted. You didn't have to be a monk or give up anything. You just needed to be unattached to the material world.

[21:01] Jessica: So you didn't have to give anything up. But yes, you couldn't be attached to the. That's a mind twister.

[21:08] Meg: It is. That's the point. It's your choice whether you're going to be devoted or not. I'm not going to tell you what to do. No. But if you're not devoted, what's that say about you?

[21:19] Jessica: It says, I'd like to keep my money for myself.

[21:24] Meg: This is also a quote from Hoyt. He would constantly say that with the proper mindset, you could experience the world as God's higher. Cocktail party on Earth.

[21:35] Jessica: That's actually a great line.

[21:39] Meg: You see my point?

[21:40] Jessica: It's compelling.

[21:41] Meg: What I'm trying to give you is the frog in boiling water.

[21:46] Jessica: Oh, yes.

[21:47] Meg: All right.

[21:47] Jessica: Yes. If you start with Studio 54, and you're still, like, now that you're doing what he's doing and you're clanging on about. But it's just a cocktail party. But the best one. Yeah, yeah. You've got a willing audience. These are the people who are going to care about that.

[22:02] Meg: And also, like, why not be with the people who are going to survive the apocalypse? There's a plus to that, too. Okay.

[22:11] Jessica: Anyway, yeah, I know that that sound that came out of me was because what popped into my head was a visual of. Of Frederick's entire entourage. Cause you were talking about the oceans rising in, like, wetsuits, flippers with, like, oxygen tanks on the back, with a mask, like, no, we're ready.

[22:31] Meg: Here we are. This is what their plan was, which they actually enacted. They got a place in North Carolina, right near where my mom has a place in the Blue Ridge Mountains, because that was going to be beach territory. Stop it. That. That's what they said it was gonna. That was gonna be the beach.

[22:49] Jessica: My God, it all comes back to the beach Weasel.

[22:55] Meg: All right. And Hoyt now knew that Frederick was from the star Arcturus. Frederick's job, because he came from this star. He came to Earth with a job, and his job was to find sincere souls to lead the future of mankind. On his show, his cable access show, and to his followers, he said that in 2000, when the majority of the world's population gets wiped out, space people would come and pick up the true believers in the North Carolina mountains.

[23:32] Jessica: So it's the Rapture, and we're going to ascend into space with the hot aliens because everyone has to be beautiful. So I assume the aliens are super hot.

[23:43] Meg: This sounded fine to Hoyt, who loved Star Trek. And after all, he had been ordained as a future leader.

[23:52] Jessica: Good God.

[23:53] Meg: When he flew to his modeling jobs, he'd find himself having the urge to announce to the cabin that they would all have a safe flight. Because he was on it, he was protected. There were important plans for him in the future. And when people in the fashion business started hearing rumors that Hoyt was in a cult, he actually started to get booked More, he was disciplined and focused on the job.

[24:19] Jessica: Okay, if that isn't the biggest condemnation of the fashion industry.

[24:24] Meg: No, but listen.

[24:24] Jessica: I don't know what is.

[24:25] Meg: Listen, his devotion to his higher calling had kept him clear of drugs and alcohol and intense relationships that might distract him. Oh, he was the perfect employee.

[24:39] Jessica: Yeah.

[24:40] Meg: And people in fashion kind of love weirdos. He had an otherworldly aura. He was booked around the clock, making millions. Little did he know that Frederick, who claimed to be a blue blood aristocrat with social ties to European royalty, was actually a kid from 8th Avenue in Brooklyn.

[25:02] Jessica: Shut it.

[25:03] Meg: Now, he was briefly a model himself, but as Eileen Ford said, I think of him as a junior type. We never would have signed him. He changed.

[25:13] Jessica: Withering.

[25:14] Meg: I know, withering.

[25:15] Jessica: But Eileen was also.

[25:18] Meg: Eileen was pretty pissed because Frederic had lured a number of her models, and it was making Ford models, like, kooky. A little kooky. And she was not a fan. So she was like, fuck this guy. He changed his accent and affect, though. Almost everyone commented on its inauthenticity. Like, everybody was like, it sounds like. Not for real. You know, it was just he. He put on a Persona that was

[25:47] Jessica: so vague but foreign that it's like it's everything and nothing.

[25:54] Meg: Yeah, like, why don't you actually sound like Jackie O? You know, like there's something off. There's something a little off there.

[26:00] Jessica: Well, he didn't go to Farmingdale or

[26:04] Meg: didn't have a good ear to replicate that, but did his version of it, which was weird. He talked his way into many a dinner party and exclusive club, often on the arm of a wealthy older woman. This is when he was younger, whom he would describe as his godmother or grandmother or aunt, and she would describe

[26:25] Jessica: him as her walker. Right.

[26:27] Meg: By the time he was in his mid-30s, he was getting the regular facelifts. Regular, Regular. And this is the quote that I thought you'd enjoy about his hair.

[26:40] Jessica: I'm so excited.

[26:42] Meg: This is from the article written in vanity fair in 1990. His hair is the color of canned pineapple. His eyes are hard and blue.

[26:56] Jessica: I love it.

[26:57] Meg: It is.

[26:57] Jessica: It's that. It's. It's a fluorescent highlighter.

[27:01] Meg: Hoyt didn't know that Freddie Myers, his actual name, was overvaluing the gems he sold, thanks to an associate on 47th Street. He also didn't know that the many young men who Freddie asked Hoyt to give a hundred dollars to help them get back on their feet were actually street hustlers. It never occurred to Hoyt that Freddy wasn't actually living the monastic lifestyle he preached to his followers, or that his anti Semitic rants were what he really believed, or that his treatment of women whom he used to lure followers by offering sex was a sign that he

[27:42] Jessica: was a sadistic dick, anti Semitic misogynist.

[27:48] Meg: Even after Vanity Fair wrote a scathing expose and Hoyt's family attempted an intervention and Freddie died of aids. He died of AIDS five days before the Vanity Fair article came out.

[28:02] Jessica: Stop.

[28:03] Meg: Crazy, right?

[28:04] Jessica: That is weird.

[28:06] Meg: But Hoyt, even after Freddy died, he still stayed loyal to the cause. He funded the move to North Carolina, which, like I told you, Freddie had preached would become beachfront property in 2000. And he stayed with the group even as the new leader, who was full of resentment for Hoyt because Freddy had always treated Hoyt as, like, the golden boy. Even after the new leader abused and imprisoned him, he still stayed. The new leader shaved his head so he couldn't model. He still stayed and believed. And then he did escape the group, basically.

[28:51] Jessica: What was the turning point?

[28:52] Meg: Okay, for one thing, he noticed that all the predictions weren't coming true, and that made him start questioning. And so he would say to the other followers, like, is it weird? Do we have a new timeline? Like, what's up here?

[29:07] Jessica: Is our. Is our production schedule off?

[29:09] Meg: Has anyone checked what's going on here? If he had done that to Freddie, Freddie would have soothed him and, you know, talked him out of it. But the new leader was a total fucking dick. Not that Freddie wasn't, but a different kind of dick. And also a survivalist. And one of those. Like, he started buying a lot of guns.

[29:27] Jessica: Oh, that's always a good sign, right?

[29:29] Meg: It's that kind of prepper. Doomsday prepper. Exactly. Doomsday prepper. But in a very sort of militaristic way.

[29:38] Jessica: Our guns are made of crystals.

[29:39] Meg: Eternal values had shifted from crystals to ammunition guns. And that. That wasn't really Hoyt's vibe. But even after he left, he left because he didn't like the new guy. He didn't leave because he didn't believe. He left because he didn't like the new guy. And guess where he went.

[30:00] Jessica: Okay, Wait, can I guess? Yes. Okay, let's do this. Might be a little. It's not 20 questions. I'm going to ask a few questions.

[30:07] Meg: I give you three.

[30:08] Jessica: Oh, thank you. Did he seek out another cult?

[30:13] Meg: No.

[30:13] Jessica: Okay. Did he go to Nantucket? No. Okay.

[30:17] Meg: His family's in Nantucket going, please come to Nantucket.

[30:21] Jessica: Okay. Did did he go back to 54th Street?

[30:25] Meg: He didn't have anywhere else to go, so he did try to go there, but obviously they knew where he went, and they had people sleeping on the floor in front of the door to keep him from leaving.

[30:37] Jessica: Oh, for God's sakes. Where did he go?

[30:41] Meg: He went to Fabio.

[30:43] Jessica: You need to shut up right now.

[30:45] Meg: Who was his best friend?

[30:47] Jessica: You need. Okay, this was called the plot twist of the week.

[30:53] Meg: And Fabio, who, as we know was incredibly successful, had a beautiful home in California somewhere. And Hoyt lived rent free with Fabio and recuperated. And Hoyt says that Fabio was so kind to him. He never asked him what had happened to him. He never demanded anything from him. He just let him be there. And he kept the refrigerator full and kept the swimming pool open. Open. And over the course of a year, Hoyt started figuring things out and suddenly realized, you know what he did? He looked up the definition of cult.

[31:41] Jessica: Oh, boy.

[31:42] Meg: That'll do it. And he was like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, that. That. That's what that was.

[31:49] Jessica: In the event that people who are listening to this don't know who Fabio is, Fabio is a very different kind of male model. He was a big, beefy hunk of Italian. Italian hunk.

[32:05] Meg: I can't believe it's not butter.

[32:07] Jessica: That's right. Tan muscles, long, flowing blonde hair, and used for almost every bodice ripper romance book cover in the 80s and 90s. He was iconic. He was so recognizable. And think about that for a second romance book cover model. Not the immediate like, oh, sure, that's the big star everyone knows. And yet he was. And to your point about, I can't believe it's not Bata or whatever his accent was. I'm not only German today, I don't know why, but he became a cultural phenomenon and a darling because, among other things, he was known for being so nice. The one thing I will say, if you want to do a quick dive into Fabio, there is a very famous photograph of the poor guy. He was on a roller coaster, and a bird flew into his face and bloodied his nose and, like, across the bridge of his nose. So there's. There are these wackadoodle photographs that you could find of Fabio, like, dazed and bloodied from a chance bird encounter on. On a ride. So that was kind of weird. And one of the cultural touchstones attached to him.

[33:38] Meg: Okay, I'm pretty much out of my time. I was like, should I even do a part two to this?

[33:44] Jessica: Yes, yes, yes. You have to do a part Two to this.

[33:47] Meg: You know why that's so actually going to be easy? Because I was so excited to hear that there was a documentary about this. The documentary doesn't drop until June. 1.

[33:58] Jessica: Stop it.

[33:59] Meg: So everything that I've told you thus far has been from other sources. Not the documentary. Now I get to see the documentary. Occult documentary.

[34:09] Jessica: Oh my God. It's like everything that your life is, is like revolves around. That's amazing.

[34:15] Meg: And it is called Bring Me the Beauties.

[34:19] Jessica: Great title.

[34:21] Meg: So I will watch that documentary and possibly do a part two if there's more juiciness to. To share next week.

[34:29] Jessica: Wow. You know, that's a cornucopia of crazy. And. And the kind of nice thing about the story is that like no one was killed. True damage was done.

[34:39] Meg: There are still people in the cult. There's still people living in North Carolina.

[34:45] Jessica: They're always. You know what? That's a whole other conversation. Like the cult. Is it really about the belief system or is it just about I have a community and I don't have anywhere else to go? And so this is.

[35:01] Meg: Well, at some point I think it becomes kind of like an abusive.

[35:05] Jessica: At some point.

[35:07] Meg: No, no. In terms of like not leaving. Oh, oh.

[35:10] Jessica: Like forever.

[35:11] Meg: Well, why people don't leave. Abusive relationships. It. There's something that once it gets its talons in you, it becomes a very difficult psychic decision. And it requires so much strength to figure out how to get your brain to realize you have to just walk out the door, you know?

[35:30] Jessica: Yeah. And which we've talked about this on the show before, but you know, that brings us back to the industry of cult deprogrammers of the 70s and 80s as. As even lampooned on SNL with Dan Aykroyd. So definitely.

[35:49] Meg: And a thing Hoyt also. I mean, we totally have to wrap this up. But he also talks about all the positive things that did come out. It does start as a positive experience. There's a reason why Tom Cruise is so great to hire in your movie. Because he will work his friggin ass off. I mean, cult members have work ethic.

[36:14] Jessica: I'm so in love with you for wrapping your piece up like that. As they say, no notes. Hey, Meg. Yes. When we were in Glee Club, we did a whole bunch of weird performances.

[36:41] Meg: Now I know what our tie in is. Yes, we did.

[36:45] Jessica: Oh my God, I hadn't even thought about that. You're absolutely right. For those who may not be in the know, our Glee Club at Nightingale was. We had a choral conductor leader the Great leader who was so obviously cut from the Frederick Myers cloth that others at the school referred to it as Glee Cult.

[37:08] Meg: So rightly.

[37:08] Jessica: So quite rightly. Which is also why I got kicked out of it not once, but twice.

[37:15] Meg: But you kept coming back.

[37:16] Jessica: I ha. I needed an extracurricular. I wasn't a joiner. It was the only thing I was doing.

[37:22] Meg: It wasn't the force of her personality.

[37:25] Jessica: God, I hated that woman.

[37:26] Meg: I really hated. She's still with us, you know.

[37:28] Jessica: I'm sorry. I don't care.

[37:30] Meg: We're not gonna mention her.

[37:31] Jessica: She clearly didn't like me.

[37:33] Meg: She didn't really like me either.

[37:34] Jessica: Yeah, good. That's. That's bad. Cult members, we were not really willing to check our egos or our brains at the door. Anyway, so you. As you recall, we sang in a lot of odd places.

[37:50] Meg: Yes.

[37:51] Jessica: We sang at. Oh, God. What was the Baptist church uptown.

[37:55] Meg: Oh, a Baptist church uptown.

[37:57] Jessica: Yes. But it's, like, really famous. And I'm just blanking. I'm having a senior moment on the

[38:01] Meg: name of the church. A bunch of white girls sang spirituals at a Baptist church in Harlem.

[38:09] Jessica: They miraculously did not do anything nasty or mean to us.

[38:15] Meg: Of course not. They're very lovely people, but it must have been.

[38:18] Jessica: Yes, but they're weird.

[38:19] Meg: They're human experience for them.

[38:22] Jessica: Yes.

[38:22] Meg: To see us doing that.

[38:24] Jessica: I remember being on stage for that and having that moment of, oh, God, oh, no, we can't.

[38:31] Meg: I did too. I was like this. I don't know who made this decision, but I don't think it was. Here we are appropriate.

[38:38] Jessica: No, it was extremely bad. We sang at boys boarding schools. That was more positive in some ways. But we also sang at a very famous building slash house.

[38:50] Meg: Gracie Mansion.

[38:51] Jessica: Right. We did.

[38:52] Meg: Yeah.

[38:53] Jessica: So Gracie Mansion. There's only one Gracie Mansion. Right? There's only one.

[38:58] Meg: Right?

[38:58] Jessica: Wrong.

[38:59] Meg: Okay.

[39:00] Jessica: Okay, here we go.

[39:03] Meg: Be gentle with me. You set me up. I'm kidding.

[39:07] Jessica: Oh, Jesus. Oh, my God. You.

[39:10] Meg: This week.

[39:11] Jessica: This week.

[39:11] Meg: Okay. No, no.

[39:12] Jessica: Yeah. I'm not. You know what? I will frequently support and stroke you, but not on this one.

[39:17] Meg: Okay.

[39:17] Jessica: Because this is great. It's a good one.

[39:20] Meg: Yay.

[39:21] Jessica: So there was a woman who was a very big deal downtown in the 80s, and her name was Joanne Mayhew Young. She was a painter in the East Village, but a big fan of her fellow East Village artists. And she decided to become. And it was an evolution, but she became a gallerist and an art dealer. And just because she was a cheeky, funny, great at marketing person, she renamed herself Gracie Mansion.

[39:58] Meg: Oh, okay. Fun.

[40:00] Jessica: And so her gallery was the Gracie Mansion Gallery. And it launched the careers of seminal downtown artists as both friend of and as an art dealer. Gracie Mansion Gallery was one of the hubs of the East Village art explosion. She featured predominantly political, female, queer and avant garde art. And she focused on photography, painting and sculpture. Some of the people who she worked with were Peter Huillar, Greer Langton, Luis Grangella, David Voynarevich and Timothy Greathouse. I know, I know, I know, I know you're making that gesture. I know this all comes back around, okay.

[40:54] Meg: Because I talked about him last week. Because that guy did the one man show about him.

[40:58] Jessica: Yes. Yeah. And it's gonna get even better about him. Just you wait.

[41:02] Meg: Okay.

[41:03] Jessica: And just as a quick aside, because anytime I can throw in something literary, I do. There is a film with Ben Whishaw, who I don't really love, but sometimes he's terrific. And Rebecca hall is called Peter Huyar's Day. And it's one day in 1974 with Peter Huillar, the photographer, in a conversation with Linda Rosenkrantz. Linda Rosenkrantz wrote one of my favorite books. She. I think it was from the late 60s and what she did was really groundbreaking. She was at the beach. I think she was in the Hamptons, but maybe it was Nantucket, I don't remember. And she schlepped a big reel to reel tape recorder with her and she recorded her conversations with her friends, particularly one gay friend, which might even be Peter Huyar and a female friend. And they lived in a house together. Those recordings became a book called Talk. It was the first book to ever experiment with this kind of. It was like cinema Realite does not sound right. Cinema verite in a book format. The Gracie Mansion Gallery. I'm reading from one of the many places that I will credit at the end of this. The Gracie Mansion Gallery is now a phenomenon. It said at the time, this is 1985, perhaps the most successful of the art galleries on the Lower east side.

[42:34] Meg: Did it say the address?

[42:35] Jessica: I'm going to give it to you. Great. On weekends, it becomes a kind of Bloomingdales of art, with collectors visiting in droves to purchase the newest work of the gallery's 15 regular artists. The gallery's run by a woman named, yes, Gracie Manchin, a self professed workaholic with a taste for outlandish jewelry. Gumby earrings are her trademark. She's a publicity magnet and impresario whose exhibitions have catchy titles. And whose artists often deal with pop cultural themes. Now, I was shocked to find. And this little write up completely supports it. People magazine covered her in 1985. So imagine what it would take for someone who's in this really fringy kind of environment to get covered by People magazine. So the gallery locations, as you asked, they began in 1982 at her home at 432 E. Ninth St. And then 15St. Mark's Place.

[43:36] Meg: Okay. 432 E. Ninth St. I'm going to say that is Alphabet City.

[43:41] Jessica: It's probably avenue C. Okay. 1983 to 1984 was 337 E. 10th St. So around B, I would imagine 84 to 89 was 167 Avenue A. 89 to 91 was 532 Broadway. She moved to SoHo out of the East Village. And then 93 to 2000 was back to St. Mark's Place, 54St. Mark's and then 2001 to 2002 was 504 W. 22nd St. So amazingly, 504 West 22 West.

[44:16] Meg: 22 West 22. Okay, so that's the gallery district.

[44:20] Jessica: Yes. And so amazingly, this woman impresario artist had a gallery going for 20 years.

[44:28] Meg: It's so interesting, just marking that path geographically.

[44:35] Jessica: And a lot of the places that she used, I mean, her. The first one being an apartment. Her own apartment is a great example. This was, in a lot of ways, guerrilla Gallerist.

[44:45] Meg: Completely a destination. You are not getting foot traffic over there.

[44:49] Jessica: No. And she would just find empty storefronts, which we've talked about before, that the East Village was filled with nothing.

[44:58] Meg: And then once you move to St. Mark's it's all about foot traffic, traffic. And then to be recognized, then you're hanging out the other gallerists.

[45:07] Jessica: Soho and Gallerist. Exactly. I say guerrilla Gallerist because there was another gallery called the Civilian Warfare Gallery, also an East Village gallery that was very similar in its mission and her rival. And they wound up repping a lot of the same artists, sort of, you know, you have them one time, I have them the next. Now, what I loved about her and the very first thing that I read about her, why I got excited, I found it was I was just reading about downtown artists and I was cracking up because she was so smart about having outsider spaces that in 1981, prior to being officially the gallery, she did her first show of collages in the back of a limousine. And she had people crawling into the lim. And the collages were on the ceiling on the Floors on the walls, if you can have walls of the doors of the limousine. And part of the exhibit was making the people who were looking at it contort themselves. Like they had to make themselves subject to the art. They had to conform to the art. In 1982, when she moves it into her home, she calls it the Gracie Mansion Gallery, but there's a portion of apartment that is the gallery. She calls it the loo division because it's in her bathroom. She's smart, she's creative, she's funny and she is out there. She also had someone who wound up working with her who really helped with bringing in other artists. His name was Soor Rodney Suor. He was a queer black gallerist, joined her as her partner and he had his own art. And we're going to find lots of. What is the connection today with our two segments? Because Sur Rodney Sur had a dog that he was really attached to named Nifty Nipper Pitts. And with this dog he had shows. His art exhibits that he would put on were at animal shelters and he had a cable TV show that he co hosted with Nifty Nipper Pits.

[47:25] Meg: I'm so glad that he wasn't a cult leader, but just on cable access.

[47:29] Jessica: Absolutely. As so many people who we have adored were. Back to civilian warfare and Gracie Mansion Gallery, as was the case with Civilian Warfare. David Vonarovich.

[47:42] Meg: I don't think that's how you pronounce it.

[47:44] Jessica: Vojnarovich. That's it. David Vojnarovich would prove to be Gracie Mansion's most illustrious star. He exhibited work at Gracie Mansion as early as 1982 when he contributed his Hooyar dreaming to the gallery's famous show. That was the name of the show, Famous show artwork which ironically and iconically had to be hung on the ceiling due to the lack of space. He continued to show at Gracie mansion through the 80s and had both a solo show and group show at the gallery in 87, including the foundational solo show Four Elements and the group show Art Against AIDS. Even though Wojnarovich showed across dozens of galleries during his lifetime, Gracie Mansion would be the gallery most associated with his prodigious body of work. Now Vojnarovi was very, very, very generous and he would bring his artist friends wherever he went. Some of his now famous East Village artist friends that he brought included Kiki Smith, Judy Glansman and Peter Huyar, who happened to be Wojnarowicz's father figure mentor, who hadn't had a US based show in five years until Gracie gave him one in 86, right before he died of AIDS in 87.

[49:01] Meg: Wait, sorry. Who died of AIDS in 87?

[49:04] Jessica: Peter Huyar.

[49:05] Meg: Got it now.

[49:06] Jessica: One of the other people who Vojnarovic brought in was Luis Frangella. He showed up in New York City in 1976 and exhibited his work at the Athenaeum in Hartford, Connecticut. In 77, he went back to Buenos Aires, where he was from, had tons and tons of exhibits. He was at mit, the Boston Children's Museum. But one of his great collaborators was Russell Sharon.

[49:34] Meg: Do you remember Russell Sharon? No. Remind me.

[49:36] Jessica: Well, Russell Sharon was the subject of our field trip number three. Russell, Ruby.

[49:41] Meg: Oh, my God.

[49:42] Jessica: Russell, Russell and Ruby. Oh, my God. That was March 2023, field trip number three. And you'll be glad to know that on Russell's press page on his website, we are featured. What? Yes, we are on the press page. Oh, I'm so glad. Yes. So Gracie Manchin, the woman, the legend, was a champion of these queer artists and people who were fringe and people who were interested in showing work in ways that were completely unconventional. As time went by, past 2002, when her operation closed about, I would say about 10 years ago, all of these artists had a resurgence. And if you go online, you can see that there are galleries all over the world who are showing these. Primarily guys art, some women, but a lot of these. These guys. And the Frankel exhibitions in 2025 did Peter Huillar the Gracie Mansion show revisited talking.

[50:47] Meg: Sorry we missed it.

[50:48] Jessica: I know. Recreating the now legendary exhibition that took place in New York's east village in 86, one year before his death. You'll also find lots of information about Gracie Mansion and the exhibitions at the Frick Collection.

[51:03] Meg: Fascinating, right?

[51:05] Jessica: So extremely conventional seeming and not this kind of art, not a modern art collection, but there she is.

[51:14] Meg: That fascinating.

[51:15] Jessica: I love this woman. I'm going to show you actually, just for fun and I think we should put it on the website. These are two photographs of her with Sur.

[51:25] Meg: Ooh, glam, right?

[51:27] Jessica: And do you love that he's carrying the dress?

[51:30] Meg: I love everything about these pictures. Please, please send.

[51:35] Jessica: One of the things about Sir Rodney sir, and you can see it in this photograph, is that he was with issues having to do with race in New York City. And this photograph, she's all glammed out and he's in a chauffeur's outfit holding a tray with two martini glasses. And as I was looking at it, and this is going to come full circle to one of our other discussions recently to a famous photo by Michael Hal's band, our friend who did a group photo right before Area's art party. And in that group photo, you've got Schnabel, you've got Hockney, you've got Warhol, you've got all of these white male artists. You've got Eric Goode, you know, the Corsario of area. And you have Jean Michel Basquiat, who has decided to stand as the only black man in the photograph, standing erect, holding a tray with something on it to make a statement about his place in the art world. That was a constant battle.

[52:47] Meg: So very good.

[52:49] Jessica: Yeah. And that photograph was taken around the same time that this photograph of Sir Rodney. Sir was taken. So definitely interesting. And though there's so much talk about outsider art, there's not a lot of talk and inclusion in these conversations about artists of color. Here you go.

[53:09] Meg: Amazing. Jessica, thank you so much. That was incredible. Do you know my friend Bob? You have definitely met him many times.

[53:26] Jessica: How is he connected to you?

[53:27] Meg: He's an actor. We play husband and wife against each other in a lot of plays. But I've also known him since the 90s because we never worked together in the 90s, but, you know, we were all on Ludlow street and Stanton street, so we knew who each other was all these years. Anyway, now he's an incredibly close friend. I adore him. Everyone does. What's not to love? He has something called Bob's Gallery. He's an artist, a performing artist, but one of his friends is a visual artist. And Bob just had extra space in his apartment. And his friend was like, can I just, like, put my stuff up in your apartment? And Bob was like, yeah, sure. This started years ago, and Bob has since moved to different apartments. And it's just Bob's Gallery. And every once in a while, it's like, there's going to be a Bob's Gallery this weekend. And people just go to Bob's apartment, wherever he is, and they see art that he is housing. So he's in a sense, like, I love that it doesn't make any money. This isn't about, like a professional gallerist, but just generosity of space.

[54:39] Jessica: I love that. And you know what that reminds me of? I've never talked about it on the podcast, but one of the. Because I don't know why, but I guess this is the moment. One of the charming things that I experienced in London. I think the second to last time I was there, a young woman was starting her Art career right out of art school. What galleries gonna take her? She and her friends started using the shed at the bottom of the garden. Right. And using that space very intelligently and lighting it in really fun ways. And the artwork that they were doing is very small format, really tiny. So it was like being in a dollhouse. Oh, I love it, looking at dollhouses in there. So I love this idea of any place is a gallery if you put your art there. So I love that. And we should. We should maybe do a field trip to Bob's gallery.

[55:37] Meg: We'd have so much fun if we did. What is our tie in?

[55:40] Jessica: What isn't our tie in? Today? We've got cable TV shows, we've got impresarios, Glee club.

[55:48] Meg: Glee Cult. Cult. Yeah. Okay.

[55:52] Jessica: Right off the top of our heads, there's three. We're good.

[55:55] Meg: Great. Ooh, I also have to show you a picture of Hoyt Richards.

[55:59] Jessica: Oh, I know what he looked like, but put it on. Put it on.

[56:03] Meg: You're like, extraordinary.

[56:04] Jessica: Yeah. And once you see it, you'll be like, oh, that guy.

[56:07] Meg: That guy. He is what, 80s was like. Like, what is a good looking guy in the 80s? It was Hoyt Richards. Cause he was everywhere.

[56:17] Jessica: He was everywhere. And he really was the ideal because

[56:22] Meg: he's like a blonde Ted Danson, but hotter.

[56:25] Jessica: Ted Danson looked like an amazing actor, like a handsome actor. He was of the same mold, but undeniably a model. Like, there's a bit of a Greek God to him. And the hair boy, his hair. 80s.

[56:41] Meg: In closing, if you are listening to this podcast and you have not written a review, just take two seconds right now. Give us a little rating. Give us a little review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. We would so, so appreciate it. And now's a perfect opportunity, right? Because we're almost done.

[57:02] Jessica: We're almost done.

[57:04] Meg: Like in the next 15 seconds.

[57:07] Jessica: Oh, yes.

[57:08] Meg: Of this podcast. Oh. Of this episode.

[57:10] Jessica: I see what you're saying. See, I haven't slept last night. Yes, Meg, you are right. Okay. Yes.

[57:15] Meg: So as soon as the outro music goes out, just click it. Click that little review.

[57:21] Jessica: Send. Send a few kind words through. On Apple Podcasts, a few kind words make our collective day. It.