[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:18] Jessica: And I am Jessica, and Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we

[00:27] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines, and

[00:31] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:33] Meg: So lots of things happened in the news this week, but I just want to draw attention because we did the Moral Majority story last week. Trump is, like, picking a fight with

[00:44] Jessica: the Pope and making images that make him Jesus.

[00:48] Meg: I mean, he just didn't listen to our podcast this week, otherwise, he wouldn't have done that, because guess what? Catholics don't like that so much.

[00:55] Jessica: It's like, I want to comment in a. In a serious and. And thoughtful way, but, Meg, I just. I just can't. Like, when do you draw the line like, this is cuckoo bananas and. And cuckoo bananas. We're going to acknowledge it, but we. We can't pull it apart. There's no way. There's no way. Other than the guy who I follow on. I mean, there are many people who I follow on Instagram who do all kinds of diagnoses all the time, but there's one in particular who's. I've talked about him before.

[01:29] Meg: Didn't he say he was gonna be dead in six months?

[01:31] Jessica: Well, that was a while ago, but

[01:33] Meg: more than six months ago.

[01:34] Jessica: Hilariously, he chimed in, like, I guess yesterday, maybe today, it was like. Because someone else was saying, wow, this is really. He must have dementia. And the guy was like, sorry, yeah. And the guy was like, see, I've been saying it for forever. This is next phase. This is the next phase.

[01:58] Meg: I'll take it. If it's progress, I will take it.

[02:00] Jessica: Look, if he. Even if it's just to keep his numbers up that he's saying it, it's still one step closer to maybe the old heave ho. I don't know. I don't. But also, by the way, I just want you to know that when I. Speaking of the 80s, when I looked at the Trump Jesus, I can't even say it out loud. The Trump Jesus photo, velvet painting. Do you remember it? It looked like the Benetton ad with the AIDS patient. Oh, my God, the composition is so similar. And I was like, did he internalize that a really long time ago? And now we're like, what the fuck is that? But it. It reminded me of the Benetton ad.

[02:48] Meg: Okay, well, I'll have to look that up. Yes, thank you for that.

[02:51] Jessica: And. And There was another thing. I was reading a. A, a. A book that I think is from the 80s or 90s. And. And, you know, I read at night so I can pretend that I'm gonna fall asleep. I forgot what it was, but it was hilarious because the. One of the characters was like, you know, you need someone really, really sleazy. And someone was like, like, like so. And so I was like, no, no, no. Like Donald Trump.

[03:19] Meg: And it.

[03:20] Jessica: It was from, like, back then. Yes, yes. And I was just like, oh, see, people always knew.

[03:27] Meg: Jesus. So today we're going of book talk.

[03:46] Jessica: Not book talk.

[03:47] Meg: Book talk.

[03:49] Jessica: Book talk. Yes. Very exciting. I really enjoyed reading our book because I haven't read it since I was a child.

[03:58] Meg: Exactly. So what we decided to do was read a Judy Bloom book. And Judy Blume was huge for our generation.

[04:07] Jessica: Definitive.

[04:08] Meg: Yeah. And I actually started asking around. Like, I asked Joe, who grew up in San Diego and was a boy, if he knew about Judy Bloom. And he did, but he hadn't read the books we read. He read, like, Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing. And then I asked my friend Jennifer, who is in New Jersey. Judy Blume is from New Jersey. Of course she knew of. Are you there, God? It's me, Margaret. And that is the book that we decided to read for today's Book Talk.

[04:38] Jessica: Yes. And it was a pleasure. Although I'll tell you something really funny. The first thing is I downloaded it from Libby from the New York Public Library app.

[04:48] Meg: Okay.

[04:49] Jessica: Because I have a library. I have a liberry card.

[04:51] Meg: I didn't know you could do something like that.

[04:53] Jessica: Yes. And this is the first time that I've done it. I. I got it, my library card with this in mind. Promptly forgot for like a year and a half. And then I was like, oh, my God, I wonder if I can get it this way. And there it was. And then I was like, it's like

[05:09] Meg: a public service announcement, Jessica.

[05:11] Jessica: It is. And then I was like, what's the app? Why would I do Kindle Unlimited when I have the New York Public Library? Unlimited. So, yes, it's my psa, and they've

[05:24] Meg: digitized all of them. A lot of them, I guess.

[05:27] Jessica: Look, if I could immediately get. Are you there, God? It's me, Margaret. I'm imagining that it's pretty. It's a vast collection.

[05:35] Meg: So I know I don't have to ask you an engagement question because you read the book, obviously you're engaged, but I have a question. Nevertheless, very excited. Did you keep a diary?

[05:46] Jessica: Maggie, you know me really well, and so what I'm about to say is not going to surprise you. I tried and then lost interest. And then I had another one and lost interest. I really liked the diaries, like, with the puffy covers and the little. The little key, the lock and the whole thing. I was very enchanted with the physical stuff, but, you know, like, the consistency. It was consistency. And also I was kind of like. Like, for whom am I doing this? Like, is this posterity? Like, I just. It wasn't how I was processing anything as a kid.

[06:25] Meg: Also, this is what I remember. I had a similar experience with the diaries was that I didn't think that anything that was happening in my day was particularly important. So every entry was like, yeah, I just went to school today. Like, nothing really happened. So that became sort of frustrating. And also because the diary I had had every day numbered. And so when you missed a day, that just felt kind of like, uh. Like I don't like that so much. Now I have to go back and remember what happened three days ago. It's a chore.

[06:59] Jessica: I'm gonna tell you something about when I was a kid that is going to make you feel that. I don't know, it's. It's part of this feeling of, like, I'm always gonna be behind. I have to catch up. I remember having ex. Well, this is also a sign of exactly how neurotic I am. Surprise. But when I was a kid, I was really anxious because. About reading the newspaper, because I was like, I'm good. Whatever article I read, I'm not going to understand it because I have to read what came before. And I was in a constant state with the New York Times as a child. Like, I'll never know what's happening in the world. And yeah, so I eventually got over there, but that's. Yeah, I felt the same way about the. The diary with the catching up.

[07:49] Meg: This is the other thing that happened. I did write some things in my diary and guess who read them.

[07:58] Jessica: Oh, God. Which parent?

[08:01] Meg: My mother. I don't think my father could have given a shit. But my mother definitely read my diary and was asking, like, very pointed questions. And I'm looking at her like, you think I don't know what you're saying right now? You obviously read my diary.

[08:20] Jessica: Well, thank God what you were writing was so mundane.

[08:23] Meg: Well, I was a child. Nothing. There was nothing like a crush that I had. You know what I mean? It's just. But it was very personal.

[08:31] Jessica: Boundaries.

[08:32] Meg: Boundaries.

[08:33] Jessica: Yeah, boundaries.

[08:35] Meg: Yeah, that's. She's listening to this Right now.

[08:37] Jessica: I know that. I know that. This is why I'm.

[08:40] Meg: This is the first time we. I have not ever said this to her face. And now I'm going to have to tell her. Yes, indeed. I could tell that you read my diary. You weren't fooling anyone. God.

[08:54] Jessica: You know what that reminds me of, though? I assume that you watched Derry Girls.

[08:59] Meg: No, I didn't. I didn't. I know. I mean, it's on the list.

[09:02] Jessica: The. The. The whole series opens with a young. Like, yeah, I guess they're seniors or juniors reading. It's like she's reading from her diary saying, this is who I am. This is where I live. This is my life. And then it's no longer a voiceover. It's her cousin reading her diary for fun.

[09:25] Meg: That is such a good opener.

[09:27] Jessica: It is. And throughout the whole series, Orla keeps on reading her diary. Like, or. And like, everyone has to do a book report at one point. You see that Orla has her diary as the book report. So it's so hilarious.

[09:44] Meg: Oh, my God, that is brilliant. Okay, so back to our book. We are doing a book talk about Are youe There, God? It's Me, Margaret, by Judy Blume, which I remember reading, I believe, in fourth grade.

[09:58] Jessica: Is that clock that Margaret was in sixth grade in the book. So I think fourth grade, yeah.

[10:05] Meg: You're reading about somebody who's a little bit older than you are now. This is my second engagement question, Jessica.

[10:11] Jessica: Okay.

[10:12] Meg: What was your big takeaway as a grown woman? What did you think that book was about before you reread it? Like, if I were to say to you two weeks ago, what is the theme of Are you there, God? It's me, Margaret. What would you have responded?

[10:28] Jessica: I really would have said just tween angst.

[10:32] Meg: And what specific angst?

[10:35] Jessica: Like period angst.

[10:37] Meg: Period.

[10:37] Jessica: Yes.

[10:38] Meg: That was mine, too. I was like, I thought the entire book was gonna be about her waiting for her period. How shocked was I to realize it's actually about. It's about religion.

[10:50] Jessica: Yes.

[10:51] Meg: Which is crazy.

[10:52] Jessica: Well, and it's right there in the title. I know.

[10:55] Meg: It went over my head, over my little fourth grade head, that it was in fact about religion.

[11:01] Jessica: Well, and. And the. I, too, in fourth grade thought that her discussions with God were basically the diary. And it's like, no, that's a child experimenting with prayer. Okay. Oops.

[11:14] Meg: Oh, and I did think when I first started reading it and she mentioned something Jewish, I was like, margaret, I don't think I've ever met a Jewish person named Margaret. And then it's revealed that her mother is Presbyterian and her father Jewish. Is Jewish. And when the two of them got together, the grandparents were not fans of the union and the parents decided to have an agnostic home.

[11:42] Jessica: Right. But I don't think that the both sets of. Or sides of grandparents were against hers were. Because they cut her off because how dare you marry a Jew?

[11:52] Meg: And of course.

[11:52] Jessica: And his mother was, like, accepting because she had the awareness that you don't cut your family off.

[12:01] Meg: And clearly the heroine of the book, in many ways, the relationship between Margaret and her father's mother, that grandmother, paternal grandmother, is. I mean, it brings tears to my eyes. It's so beautiful.

[12:14] Jessica: It is absolutely lovely.

[12:17] Meg: But clearly she doesn't have a great relationship with the parents, because the parents are like, how did she know where you were? Like, they moved without even telling her. They didn't give her their address.

[12:29] Jessica: They did, because she.

[12:31] Meg: She shows up and they're like, how did she get here? How did they find. How did she find you? I mean, I don't think they're trying to disappear.

[12:37] Jessica: No, no, no, no, no. I think you're. You're misremembering something. It was that the grandmother doesn't drive and, like, she doesn't like to leave Manhattan and she doesn't like to take trains. And so there's all this stuff. And I think the whole thing, when they said, how did she get here? It was like, we never thought she'd leave the island of Manhattan. It wasn't. Do you know where we live?

[13:01] Meg: Right. Okay. Well, in any case, like, it's not warm and fuzzy with the parents.

[13:08] Jessica: I think that there is such a huge distinction between her parents and his mother. That true?

[13:17] Meg: Oh, yeah.

[13:18] Jessica: Like, that's.

[13:19] Meg: The Presbyterian grandparents appear towards the end of the book, and they're just awful. Yes.

[13:25] Jessica: So just to go back a little bit. So in this book that I. And you remembered as a book about when am I going to get my period? And hilariously, I did vividly remember that one of the girls lies and then gets found out. And it's like, really embarrassing and all horrible. And I must have gotten such, like, a secondhand cringe off of it that I. This many years later, I was like, oh, this is coming up. Oh, no, I don't like that. Anyway, so that's. So that's. That's. This girl goes from Manhattan to New Jersey. It's 1970. Did you know that?

[14:05] Meg: I did.

[14:06] Jessica: The book came out in 1970. Yeah. You know, the great Suburban. Move the diaspora to the suburbs. You know, you watch this little girl get her new group of friends and what they're like. And you know how she relies on her grandmother for counsel. Her parents are really lovely and they're well meaning, but they. She connects with her grandmother and you just like liking boys and figuring that out and figuring out that the boy who's the cutest is definitely not the nicest.

[14:39] Meg: But this is the other thing as far as that was concerned, all of the assumptions that they are all bringing into the situation about boys and girls liking each other or being interested in each other, it felt like they were being told that that's how they should feel rather than having it happen organically. There's just a lot of cultural stuff going on where it's like, ooh, the cute boy. Or, you know, and it's like, I'm kind of young for that.

[15:11] Jessica: You felt that the parents were doing that.

[15:13] Meg: The entire culture was doing it.

[15:15] Jessica: Oh, oh. At the time, yeah. I mean, it was very heteronormative. If you don't like a boy, then what are you doing with yourself? But back to your original point. So the book, that's what we took away as kids. The book is about this. So she's asking God, what should I be? What religion?

[15:35] Meg: Christian? Should I be Jewish?

[15:37] Jessica: And that was my takeaway about pressure. The pressure that I was most affected by in the book wasn't that she, you know, who are you gonna, like, are you gonna kiss someone in, you know, three minutes in heaven in the closet? It was, well, what are you? And what are you? Was hinging on religion. And, like, you have to take a side. And that was the other thing. At one point in the book, someone even says, pick a side. And I thought, oh, my God. And then she has to write a paper about something personal for her homeroom teacher. And she tries to write a whole paper, but just writes a letter about it. But she says in the letter, I experimented with going to church. I experimented with going to synagogue. I tried to go to a confession, and I didn't do anything Buddhist or Hindu because I don't know those people. And I was like, go Judy blume for in 1970, at least, like, acknowledging

[16:41] Meg: that there were other religions out there. The other thing she talks about is, so she has moved to the suburbs from New York City. And when Margaret was in New York City, religion wasn't a big deal. She didn't feel like she had to take a side. But moving to the suburbs, one country club is for the Jewish people. And one country club is for the WASPY people.

[17:08] Jessica: Yeah, waspy people.

[17:10] Meg: So, yeah, that's one of the other things. Like what the little girls are going like, well, where are you gonna go on Saturday and Sunday? What do you mean? Like, how are you gonna spend your life if you don't know which side you're gonna take? And that was new in New Jersey, was not her experience in the city.

[17:25] Jessica: And what I loved as sort of Judy Blume's commentary on is it really all that different anyway, is that when she goes to church and she goes to synagogue, she's so bored that she counts the hats that are in the pews in front of her, like this many black hats, this many green hats, and one leopard print and that. Her father sort of laughs when she tells him this. And he's like, that's what I did too. I did that. Like, that's what it is to be a kid, you know, at whatever your Sunday services. And what I thought was really great about the book and what I saw about Judy Blume as a writer and sort of was able to see as an adult why she was so popular. Like, why was Judy Blume the queen of tween and teen books? Ya, why? A she wrote about such sensitive issues in such a breezy way. And even though the child's voice was, you know, a very precocious child, it was so not scary. They were questions and they were hard questions, but there wasn't anything that would freak a kid out. It was challenging, but not offensive. It was thought provoking but not scary. And so I thought, oh, okay. And obviously kids would like these, but the parents are the ones buying them, so why were they okay with it? And I thought that was pretty interesting as an adult to be like, okay, this is your success was rooted in this very special skill.

[19:09] Meg: Sorry. But going back to the idea that the culture is making these kids in 6th grade worry about whether they like boys or not, it's also making them worry about whether they're wearing a bra or not or if they should wear a bra. If you weren't being put in that position, would you care? It's because the culture is telling you that it's stressful and that when you go to the department store, maybe you should be embarrassed. And it's the secret club, the secret club that she joins with her friend Nancy, who makes all these rules. Nancy is the head of the club and is pretty bossy. And she's saying, well, you have to have a list of the boys that you like, every single week. And everybody has to wear a bra. I mean, all of this is pressure that if you were taken out of that context, you wouldn't necessarily feel. If your body is changing, it's the culture that's making is putting the stress on it.

[20:09] Jessica: And so you felt that Nancy was kind of the representation of the. The culture because she's the one who sets.

[20:16] Meg: Yeah. Who. Who sets them all up to do

[20:19] Jessica: or not do something.

[20:20] Meg: Also. The liar. Yes. So I think that's kind of important to have this position of authority that causes some anxiety in Margaret's life. Her. Her peer, who's telling her what she's supposed to do, when and how and whether it's good enough. Pop that balloon, basically. Why would you feel like you had to lie about getting your period, Nancy? It's because you have a lot of anxiety and you are putting it on other people.

[20:48] Jessica: Yes, absolutely. So, yes, the. The whole toxic friendship concept was. Was in there. I mean, she packed a lot into the book.

[20:57] Meg: Oh, my Lord.

[20:58] Jessica: There's boys, peer pressure, boobs, body. Yeah, boobs, period. She also, you know, she talks about her mom. Her dad doesn't really get discussed much, but she talks about her mom.

[21:13] Meg: You sort of picture him, like, behind his paper every morning in, you know, Leave it to Beaver, kind of.

[21:19] Jessica: Yes. But what I thought was interesting was that the character sees her mother as a person, not as, just as like an authority figure. Because the way that she's described. And of course, even though, like, it's all described through the child's eyes is like, the mother's unsure, like, what furniture should I get? Like, I'm in this new house and it's much, you know, my life is much more comfortable than it was before because now he's earning more money, so what am I gonna do?

[21:54] Meg: And also intimidated by her mother in law. But from child's perspective, we can just kind of read between the lines now. I wonder if we read between the lines when we were in sixth grade. Absolutely not. Or fourth grade.

[22:07] Jessica: I wouldn't have even paid attention to what the mother was or wasn't doing. It would have just been sort of backdrop.

[22:15] Meg: Very delicately put in there.

[22:18] Jessica: Yes.

[22:18] Meg: And. Sorry, I'm gonna come back to it. Poor Laura again.

[22:24] Jessica: Oh, God.

[22:24] Meg: Laura Denker. Yeah. So Laura Denker is in this sixth grade class and she has matured sooner than other people. So she's got boobs. And the rumors about her are running rampant. And again, Jessica, that is about the culture. The fact that the boys, like, everyone's saying that the boys are making out with her behind, what, the gas station or something. It's all a lie that the girls are like, ooh. I'm sure that the teacher is looking at her strangely. I don't believe the teacher was looking at her at all.

[22:57] Jessica: Agreed. Actually, what I thought was interesting is that the only people who made up rumors about Laura were. Were the girls.

[23:04] Meg: That's true. The boys.

[23:05] Jessica: The boys didn't. Yeah. The boys are the ones who are like, at the end, he's like, do you. Moose says, do you believe everything you hear?

[23:12] Meg: Right. No. So good on the boys, actually, in this situation.

[23:15] Jessica: Yeah. But, yeah. Laura Danker. Oh, God. Like, that poor thing. You just. And you just like, there's always that kid. And I. I remembered who that kid was really vividly from Fleming, and I was like, oh, my God.

[23:27] Meg: Because that is awful. I mean, I was. Was not that kid. You were not that kid. But there was a kid who had boobs before anyone else did. And whatever the discomfort is about that for other people, the way that those girls are spoken about and treated is so different, and that's going to mar them for the rest of their lives.

[23:55] Jessica: Don't do that. Yes. Don't. Do not objectify girls bad. Well, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm. I'm agreeing with you.

[24:06] Meg: The fact that when we read that, we knew not only what was coming, like, oh, dear, poor Laura Denker, but also had examples in our own lives of a poor Laura Denker. That. That says a lot about this fucking culture. I'll say it again.

[24:24] Jessica: Yes. Come on. Yeah. I mean, I. I'm trying to remember. I was thinking of one girl from Fleming, but then I remembered another because I was so little, like, I was not hitting puberty early in any way, shape or form. I remember just, like, noting that that's what was going on. Like, the girl who had boobs and people, how they treated it. But I just paid it no mind. Like, it was so completely outside my sphere of concerns that I was just like, okay, whatever. And I never cared. I never gave a. Like, I really didn't care about, like, when am I going to get boobs? When am I going to look like a woman? When the only thing I cared about regarding getting my period was, oh, please, God, don't let me get it in a way that's going to be horrible and embarrassing. And that is exactly what happened. So that was like, the only. The only thing that I was like, oh, let this not be. But. But it was at an all girls school. So also, like, I got off really easy, but those were not things that I ever cared about. And so that urgency to be grown up, to be able to fill a bra, I was just like, whatever. I'm. I'm doing my own thing and reading a book and whatever.

[25:50] Meg: Right. But if you were in a secret society that was telling you that that was important, then you might have felt differently about it if you were getting a lot of peer pressure, which happens in this book.

[26:02] Jessica: Yes, I never. But I never got that from my friends. There were always mean girls. You know, camp was always a mixed bag.

[26:09] Meg: Oh, my God, we can't talk about camp.

[26:11] Jessica: I'm not going to.

[26:12] Meg: It's too hairy.

[26:13] Jessica: But, you know, they. They were not nice. But, yeah, I didn't. It didn't take it personally. I didn't internalize it. It was more like, oh, my God, these are horrible people. And how do I just avoid them?

[26:27] Meg: Okay, I have two more questions for you. Okay, so you know how they practice kissing because they alto. We also have to talk about the first kiss. The first kiss is in this book, right?

[26:36] Jessica: Yes. I love how. How she. The interaction with Norman Fishbein in the. In the bathroom. And by the way, just quickly, the name Fish had me on the floor because in. In law school, my study partner, lovely guy named Neil, his last name was Fishman, but our German contracts professor insisted on calling him Mr. Fishbein all the time. And I was just like, I am crying, laughing. So the. And I saw Norman Fishbein. I was like, oh, my God, I

[27:12] Meg: love it so much. So before she has her first kiss, one of her friends is practicing kissing on a pillow. I mean, okay, let's just say it. The book does not give great advice. And I never quite understood how to practice kissing with a pillow. Did you ever practice kissing with a pillow? Because it doesn't make sense.

[27:35] Jessica: That is why, again, at Fleming, there was a boy named David Leichman who was in my class and who decided unilaterally that he was my boyfriend in second grade. And I remember I had been out sick. And then I got to school. I will never forget this. And I walked in, and he came right up and kissed me on the mouth.

[28:00] Meg: Oh, my God. Your first kiss was in second grade?

[28:03] Jessica: Yes.

[28:03] Meg: Oh, my God.

[28:04] Jessica: And I was so furious. I. I was like, how dare you? And I. I, like, refused to speak to him again. I was like, that is.

[28:14] Meg: Well, that was not consent, was it?

[28:16] Jessica: No, it was not consent. And, you know, people were like, ew. And I was like, there is no. Ew, no, wrap it up. Not happening here. So the whole first kiss thing, like, wasn't, again, like sort of wasn't like a thing to achieve. And then when I was 12, that all started kicking in at camp and.

[28:42] Meg: Yeah.

[28:42] Jessica: Again, like, it didn't, it didn't phase me. I. I feel like my traumas were so deep and in other areas that, that this all was kind of like, whatever, whatever.

[28:53] Meg: Okay, fine. Okay. So the second ridiculous piece of advice that comes in this book that I took on face value, okay. Was we must, we must, we must increase our bust. We must, we must, we must increase our bust. Which I honest to God had not thought about in decades.

[29:15] Jessica: Since you watched Greece. Because they do it in Greece too. Yes.

[29:19] Meg: Did they really?

[29:20] Jessica: Yes, at the slumber party. They're. They're doing the exercise too.

[29:25] Meg: They're doing the exercise. But did they say it out loud? I don't think they say.

[29:28] Jessica: They say something. It's not the same chant, but similar.

[29:33] Meg: Is that. That doesn't work. Maybe it does.

[29:36] Jessica: What? It does. Is it. They're working out their pecs, Right. So I guess it's like the, it's

[29:42] Meg: like, you know, like the thigh Bobster

[29:44] Jessica: for your, for your chest. I don't know. No, of course. Of course it doesn't work. It's ridiculous. But yeah, like the, the mad ridiculousness that kids do to be grown up. I mean, do you.

[29:59] Meg: I'm gonna say it again and you're gonna be so annoyed with me.

[30:02] Jessica: I'm not annoyed with you.

[30:03] Meg: What? The fact they talked about magazine again. It's the culture and the fact that the dads all had Playboy magazine, that's completely normalized. And when they open up the centerfold of the Playboy magazine, that is the body and it's an 18 year old girl. That is the body that they're like, oh, my God, is that what I'm supposed to look like? I mean, I, I think Judy was doing that on purpose.

[30:28] Jessica: I think she was saying, not good.

[30:32] Meg: Not good.

[30:32] Jessica: Yeah, no, I, I agree that, yeah, that struck me as well. That was not. Although I will tell you that babysitting as a young teenager, it was always like, did you find the parents porn? There's always. There was always a stack of magazines someplace. Yeah. And I, I remember always being like, jackpot. Found it. All right. Now I know. Now I know your shame. I know you keep your shame under the bed. The Playboy thing was. I don't even think about condemning the father character so much as just. It's not the father.

[31:14] Meg: It's a cult.

[31:15] Jessica: Yeah, it's just a commentary.

[31:17] Meg: But yeah, I loved it.

[31:18] Jessica: What was funny though, and the reason I brought up the Libby thing at the beginning is that I obviously I started with chapter one and I scrolled a tiny bit, I went to the next chapter and I was like, wait, where are the other words? Like, is this a weird thing with Libby? Like, are they only giving me a partial? And then I was like, oh, they're short chapters for children. There are 25 of them.

[31:44] Meg: But, but you can get it done in 15, 20 minutes. Like, you know, for a kid right before they go to bed.

[31:50] Jessica: Yeah. I read this book in one sitting and I guess the other thing that's sort of interesting to me didn't occur to me until the second is that I can barely remember anything right now. Like I'm so distracted and I'm like up in my own head about so many things. I remember so much from just now reading this book. Again, well done, Judy. So meticulously timed. Like all of the details, like they're, she doles it out in a way that is, is genuinely memorable. And like the scenes, they're, they're very vivid. And so I just, I was like, wow, I can't believe that I'm remembering things like this perfectly.

[32:39] Meg: Did you know, I'm sure you do, that she is one of the most censored authors in history.

[32:46] Jessica: I did not know that. I know that she had been very censored, but I, I didn't know in history.

[32:51] Meg: And the reason is because she's poisoning young minds. Yeah, people think, you know, Moral Majority kind of people callback from last week think that sex education is a bad idea. What?

[33:06] Jessica: How?

[33:07] Meg: I mean, isn't that, I mean, I know it's a no brainer, but especially, especially when you read a book like this and go, what if she didn't know? To go through life in complete ignorance about what is happening to your changing body is criminal.

[33:23] Jessica: Yeah, I mean I felt that way at 50. Like no one told me, like, my ass is going to do what. I'm fat. Why? I'm very warm. Why am I so warm? Like just all, all of those things, you know, I, I've been referring to menopause as the second puberty for a couple of years because that's what it feels like. And it's, it's the same cloud of unknowing, the fog that you, you sort of have to make your way through and you're like, I guess this is what I'M dealing with. I hope it's not cancer. Like, I hope it's not something that's killing me. Oh, it's just menopause. Oh, okay.

[34:09] Meg: Well. Okay, here's an interesting comparison. So in the book, the girls are all excited to get their period. And now, you know, as women in their 50s, is there anything we're supposed to be excited for? I don't feel like that's the message we're being given.

[34:27] Jessica: I felt that having no more period was the greatest thing that ever happened.

[34:31] Meg: But they don't say that.

[34:32] Jessica: No, no, no.

[34:34] Meg: They say it's going to be awful, and they're wrong.

[34:37] Jessica: No, it's the best thing ever. Like, it's like being a person again instead of, like, a ball of weird cramps and hormones and. And frankly, am I pregnant? Do I want to be pregnant? I don't want to be pregnant. What if I am pregnant? Oh, God.

[34:55] Meg: Look, it's a mixed bag for a bunch of reasons, but let's just say I think that there is. There's something to be said for spinning it in a positive way. And I don't hear a lot of that decor.

[35:08] Jessica: Yes. But, yeah. So, surprisingly, a very enjoyable book, even as an adult. And as a quick. A quick aside and a nod to one of the true BFFs of the cast, Judy Blume's agent was our dear friend Nick's dad.

[35:28] Meg: So is Nick gonna tell us all kinds of cool things about Judy Bloom?

[35:31] Jessica: I am. Nick, I know you're listening. I know that he's going to write in something, and it was exquisite.

[35:39] Meg: Looking forward.

[35:40] Jessica: Indeed.

[35:51] Meg: So, ever since we reached 50,000 downloads. Jessica.

[35:54] Jessica: Yes.

[35:55] Meg: Our podcast has somehow been shared with more people or a different kind of algorithm or something because our numbers have shot up, which is amazing. So welcome to the podcast, all you new people who are listening to us. Welcome, welcome.

[36:12] Jessica: And do let us know if you're a new listener. Could you reach out and let us know how you came to find us? Yeah, because that would be really instructive if we came through an algorithm or. Or, I don't know, what, like search or something. Who knows?

[36:29] Meg: And also, if you have any ideas for stories that took place in the eighties in New York City, let us know and we will look into them at our earliest convenience. And we are having a party to celebrate our 50,000th download at kgbredroom at 85 East 4th street in the East Village on May 14, 7 to 9:30.