[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I'm Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City,

[00:28] Meg: where we still live and where we podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines and

[00:34] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:37] Meg: I just got back into town.

[00:39] Jessica: How is it being back in New York after the South?

[00:42] Meg: It's okay. It's fine. I mean, spring is sprung. That's nice.

[00:48] Jessica: Definitely. You know, I was in a cab going through Central park, and it's impossible to ignore that all of the flowers are blooming. They're daffodils and crocuses. Croci and tulips out and about. And it's really. It's such a pleasure. And actually, the. I was on a terrace, a New York City terrace, very recently, a day or two ago, and every potted plant on this terrace was just shooting out its leaves. And I was like, oh, that's. It was. It was such a confirmation of everything. Everything changes. Everything turns over. Everything's new. Thank God. New sh.

[01:37] Meg: You're ready for some change, Please.

[01:39] Jessica: No kidding.

[01:42] Meg: Change over here. Please stir up some change. Did you ever see.

[01:46] Jessica: I'm sure. I think I've even said something about it on this podcast. But one of the. The most ridiculous there was. I forgot which season of SNL had Tim Kazarinsky. I think it was during the Billy Crystal years. And he had a character that he did, a guru of sorts called Having a Good Time. Vishnu were here.

[02:06] Meg: I know not. Does not age well.

[02:08] Jessica: Does not age well. But there's only one thing that is constant and that is change. And it's a good thing because we need it for the bus. That was. That was to me, always like, yeah, don't take it seriously. Change will come. Everything will get better. And on that note, you actually had something really beautiful that you shared with me prior to recording. And I think it bears a little investigation or sharing.

[02:38] Meg: So while I was on vacation, New Ben listened to our latest episode when we were talking about the early days of the creation of Merrily We Roll along and the conversation that we had about that. And he sent a voicemail to our Instagram that was just so moving. Absolutely made my day, slash week, slash month. And I just shared it with Jessica. And boy, do we love New Ben.

[03:11] Jessica: We love New Ben. And we love New Ben for multitude of reasons, I'll admit. When Meg walk walked into my apartment today to begin recording, I took one look at her sympathetic face and burst into tears. And Meg, very alarmed yet patient and kind, said, what is it? And as I frequently do mention on this podcast, but I will again. And I said to Meg, it's just depression. I can't. And that was something that New Ben was sharing with us, that that podcast addressed. Something that is sort of the universal struggle, I think, for all of us living in New York.

[03:54] Meg: What we talked about in that episode spoke to him as someone who is young but also getting older, as one does if you are lucky in this world, and that sometimes that can feel rather daunting and scary. But actually, you're not gonna die.

[04:15] Jessica: You're gonna be fine. In fact, specifically, you will get stronger, Meg, as you shared that with me. Thank you. But not once, but twice, you've reduced me to tears today. First by showing up and then by sharing something really beautiful that New Ben, young Ben, shared with us. So, anyway, to you, Ben, happy almost birthday, and don't be afraid to jump in to 30. The water is fine.

[04:53] Meg: When you were growing up in the 80s, when you were a youngin, you lived further east than I did.

[05:02] Jessica: Yes, I lived on 82nd street between First and York, but really on the corner of York.

[05:08] Meg: So tell us the playground you went to.

[05:11] Jessica: Carl Scherz Park.

[05:12] Meg: Would you like to discuss Carl Scherz? I never know how to pronounce it.

[05:16] Jessica: Scherz. Carl Schurz. Scherz. Carl Schurz.

[05:21] Meg: That is a difficult name. It's a hard one, Mr. Carl.

[05:24] Jessica: It is indeed.

[05:26] Meg: But tell us about the. The playground. It's right on the water. It's right near Tracy Square. Sorry, you go, you go.

[05:35] Jessica: Well, you know, as a kid, it's just your park, right? Like, you don't think about it, but it's a really. I think it's a very special park. It's a sort of narrow, long strip of a park. And the wall, the barrier wall, abuts the promenade on the east river, which is another very lovely place to be. And on the promenade, on this elevated, you know, there's a wall. They've constructed elevated dog parks on that, which is very cute. So, of course, it's where all the little dogs go. So I'm like, oh, little dogs. Which I love. But the park itself, the playground was very old school. And when I was a kid.

[06:16] Meg: What do you mean by that?

[06:17] Jessica: Well, when I was a kid, you know, no rubber mats. First off, it was cement. And if you went down, you went down hard. It had a jungle gym and a geodesic dome that you could Climb and slides, all of which were made out of polished steel. And so in. In the summertime, hot as hell, you were going to lose some layers of skin, for sure. There was a rocket ship, a metal rocket ship that you could climb, but of course, it was constructed of tall metal beams, so a child, I'm sure, could lose an arm if you stuck your hand in there and then fell. It was a death trap. There was a sandbox that I'm quite sure was like a breeding ground for malaria.

[07:11] Meg: Of course. Kaksaki.

[07:13] Jessica: What?

[07:14] Meg: When I was having children in the early 2000s, that's what people worried about as far as sandboxes were concerned. Coxsacky.

[07:23] Jessica: That was a virus.

[07:25] Meg: Something that you really didn't want your kids to get and they were totally going to get if they went into a sandbox.

[07:29] Jessica: Oh, my God. Well, no, thank you. I just thought that it was like, don't step on a needle, kids. It's not a good idea. But aside from the death trap, it had lots. It still has lots of really beautiful places to stroll that culminate in Gracie Mansion. So Gracie Mansion is in Carlshire's park, right on the perimeter. So it's very beautiful and special for

[07:57] Meg: you neighborhood kids because the rest of us who weren't that far east, we all went to Central Park. That was the only option we had.

[08:05] Jessica: Yes. And there was always a really good Mr. Softie right outside of Carl Schurz park, where you could get a chocolate eclair pop without fail, a crap ice cream.

[08:19] Meg: Nice. Thank you for sharing.

[08:21] Jessica: That's Carl Schurz. So who died there? Meg? It's not that kind of story. Who met a horrible demise? Who ripped their arm off in the rocket ship that we're gonna. Or did someone find the arm in the rocket ship? I'm ready. I'm settling in for the story.

[08:38] Meg: Here we are. My sources are Central Park Conservancy website, the New York Times, and the New York City Parks department website. In 1980, the New York City Parks Department decided it was time to renovate the East 96th street playground in Central Park. Can you picture it?

[09:01] Jessica: Indeed, I can.

[09:02] Meg: All right, it is northeast of the reservoir, like 10 blocks or so, and just south of the 96th street transverse. The playground had originally been designed and built in 1936 by Robert Moses, who had been appointed Parks Commissioner by Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia. Central park was a mess in the 30s. It had been constructed in the mid-1800s as a Democratic space open to all New Yorkers. But its upkeep had been neglected and by the 1930s it was a dust bowl. Moses went to work like the bulldog he was and initiated massive planning projects throughout the city, which included 19 playgrounds in Central park, all funded by FDR's New Deal.

[09:59] Jessica: Woot woo. Love that.

[10:01] Meg: Right? So Robert Moses did one thing right.

[10:05] Jessica: Yes.

[10:06] Meg: These playgrounds were each designated for a specific use because remember, it is Robert Moses. Athletic fields were for boys over 14. Boys playgrounds. And these are all in capital letters. Athletic fields. Right. Boys playgrounds were for boys under 14. And those playgrounds had swings, seesaws, slides and metal jungle gyms and monkey bars. Girls playgrounds were for girls under 16 and boys under 8 and included the same equipment as boys playgrounds plus sandboxes and baby swings. Midget playgrounds.

[10:51] Jessica: Are you kidding me right now?

[10:53] Meg: I'm not. Were for children under four and were mostly sand and swings. So that was Robert Moses.

[11:01] Jessica: You know, that I was hoping for a really different kind of playground.

[11:05] Meg: Sorry.

[11:05] Jessica: Sorry. Damn it.

[11:08] Meg: So that. That was how Robert Moses envisioned play.

[11:13] Jessica: Not a man known for play. So definitely an interesting vision.

[11:18] Meg: All these playgrounds had wooden benches for the caretakers, wire mesh trash baskets and bird bath water fountains. Doesn't that sound familiar? Isn't that a visual? Doesn't that remind you of.

[11:31] Jessica: Yeah, I mean, that's what it all looked like.

[11:33] Meg: That's what it all looked like.

[11:34] Jessica: I'm very familiar with this.

[11:35] Meg: Robert Moses had some control issues and included in his very prescriptive playgrounds recreation specialists who would lead organized games on the park payroll.

[11:51] Jessica: Interesting.

[11:52] Meg: Yes. The New deal was awesome.

[11:55] Jessica: Wow.

[11:56] Meg: Then World War II happened. And in war torn areas in Scandinavia and England, kids started creating their own play spaces in vacant lots from the debris left behind. Lots that were considered too derelict for parking. Cars were abandoned by developers. But the children saw an opportunity in these forbidden sites and were thrilled to climb the rubble heaps. In fact, they preferred them to the jungle gyms in Nazi occupied Denmark. Creative play was seen as sneaky and mischievous. The child created play areas were the children's version of resistance.

[12:44] Jessica: Nifty.

[12:45] Meg: Yeah. And architects took note. Danish architect Carl Theodor Sorensen noticed that children were quickly bored playing in traditional playgrounds, but were delighted with construction sites for hours on end. He formulated a new philosophy in playground design. This is a quote. A junk playground in which children could create and shape, dream and imagine a reality. The concept of junk playgrounds evolved into what they called adventure playgrounds to sound more acceptable to city planners and architects like Richard Dratner. Now we're Back in New York were inspired. Adventure playgrounds have no standard play equipment. Instead, they incorporate forms like mounds, pyramids, tunnels and mazes, and interactive water features. Is this reminding you of any playgrounds in the city?

[13:48] Jessica: Yeah, I mean, in Central park, that's, that's what they had. And sprinklers as the water feature. But yes, these, these shapes. Right, that, that and a lot of it was actually curved. Yes.

[14:01] Meg: The ancient playground just north of the Met is a wonderful example of a planned adventure play. And the East 72nd street playground as well, which is right near where my dad lives. And so when my kids were growing up, we went to that adventure playground. Many grownups don't really get adventure playgrounds because they're made of wood and concrete and they seem kind of drab. But kids get it. Unlike a swing that does one thing, a swing swings. That stone pyramid with a tunnel through it can be a diamond mine or Mount Olympus or a secret cave to hide from the bad guys. And so it's interesting. Like grownups are sort of like, where's the color? I remember swinging on a swing. Why would you want to crawl on a big old mound of amorphous whatever? And kids are like, don't you worry about it. I'll be back in five hours.

[15:09] Jessica: Well, it's the way that I see it is children have so few opportunities for autonomy. And what this does is it seems to give them the opportunity to create their own environment, whether it's real or imagined. But they are the ones who can determine who they are and where they are while they're on that playground.

[15:32] Meg: Absolutely. And so Robert Moses's idea of like, child plays this way and that way and like, you know, could there be

[15:41] Jessica: anything more Robert Moses than that? Like, you will play and you will enjoy yourself and you will do it my way.

[15:47] Meg: And also the kids in war torn World War II construction sites also using this sort of creative play as a form of resistance. It's like the kids are also resisting the adult. It's autonomy, and it's also sticking it to the man.

[16:05] Jessica: Yeah. I mean, there are all these wonderful, I'm sure you've seen many of them, photographs of little kids crawling on rubble, Particularly the ones that I've seen are, are in London and they're so little, but they're just scrambling over that stuff like nobody's business. So it's really quite amazing.

[16:22] Meg: And fortunately for the kids who grew up in New York city in the 70s, which is US architects like Richard Dratner did get it. That was around the time that the Robert Moses traditional playgrounds fell into disrepair. So it was time for refresh. Yeah. For all the good that Robert Moses did in refurbishing the park during his tenure, he failed to provide for its upkeep. I don't know if you know about this.

[16:51] Jessica: I did not know that.

[16:53] Meg: So by the early mid-70s, the park had again become a dust bowl, just like it had during the depression in the 30s.

[17:02] Jessica: You know, I don't know if this is real or imagined, but it's conjuring up an image of the great lawn and sheep's meadow. Is that right?

[17:11] Meg: Yes. Yeah. It was truly just dust. Yeah. And then over our childhood, they seeded it, and so then it was grassy, but when we were little, it was not. It was not grassy. Not a blade to be found. When Richard Dratner was tasked with renovating the playgrounds, this is in the 70s. He read about the junk playgrounds from war ravaged Europe and looked at New York City at the time and was

[17:42] Jessica: like, it's on fire and it's been destroyed.

[17:46] Meg: Reminds me of World War II. And he figured adventure playgrounds would fit right in. And the Kids of the 1970s, New York City responded just as the kids in war torn Europe had. Now, not all playgrounds in Central park became adventure playgrounds, but most, if not all, were influenced by the movement. Getting back to the East 96th street playground, that renovation still had swings and a jungle gym, but also included a structure of wooden posts at different heights.

[18:21] Jessica: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[18:23] Meg: That you could balance on and climb as if you were an alley cat or a Sherpa in the Himalayas. But as we know all too well, parenting trends change over time. In 1967, Union Square had a check a child playground where you could drop your kid off for 25 cents for the first three hours so you could shop in peace. Can you imagine?

[18:49] Jessica: Your eyes are like saucers. I can't. I can't think of anything more terrifying. You might feel better putting my kid in a locker in. In like, Port Authority than dropping. I'm not joking you. I'll lock you into your little cubicle. You're just fine. Don't make eye contact. Exactly. Don't make eye contact. Attack.

[19:13] Meg: Now, parents in the 70s were very different from parents of the 80s. Yuppie parents had this thing about safety. Oh, weird. Yeah. And they freaked out if they couldn't see their kid because she was behind a brutalist concrete dome. Also, God forbid she fall from that amorphous netting structure. And isn't that sand pit, basically a litter box for rats and squirrels. Also, children with disabilities weren't particularly accommodated in the playground designs of the 60s and 70s. Some 80s parents saw the adventure playgrounds as death traps and tried to have them all removed. All removed.

[20:03] Jessica: The 80s were really the advent of the we're parents and we know better. Get Tipper Gore on the phone.

[20:11] Meg: Right? And also the whole save the children, save the children.

[20:18] Jessica: None of whom wanted to be saved.

[20:20] Meg: Exactly. So this is a quote from an 80s parent. I'm of the old school. I want to sit on a bench and talk to the other mothers and be able to see my child. Maybe it's not as exciting for the kids. This place is definitely more creative, but moms want to sit and chat. This is Gail Meckle, mom of seven year old Brad. This is another quote. Children slip on the sand and on the concrete. The tire swings have chains they hit their heads on. I've seen three or four girls hurt that way, said Joanna Karlovich, Upper east side mother of three.

[21:00] Jessica: The way that you say mother with so much venom is really interesting. Mother F3.

[21:07] Meg: Fortunately, preservationists prevailed and a few adventure playgrounds were left intact. Other adventure playgrounds that had been designed with organic materials and built into the existing typography of the land were replaced with colorful equipment and soft padding ordered from catalogs. Adventure playground architect M. Paul Friedberg said, quote, we are protecting the child too much. We want the child to be living in a padded box. A child has to have the real world fraught with challenges to overcome. Michael Godkin, a landscape designer who left the Central Park Conservancy over the playground dispute, said there was a brief window when artists, architects, sculptors and parents got together and created a playground revolution. It was so recent, but is so entirely gone. You don't really design playgrounds now. You order equipment from a catalog. In 1994, the East 96th street playground was renovated again. Okay, so we had the 1930s version, then we got the 1970s version. And then in 1994 it was renovated again with safety conscious fiberglass equipment that looked a lot like a training gym for American Ninja Warrior. If you have ever seen that program,

[22:44] Jessica: it's not my milieu.

[22:46] Meg: But most recently, this is the Good news. In 2019, the East 96th street playground was completely overhauled with natural wooden ramps and climbing structures, accessible swings and slides, rope nets and a child activated water geyser. It is now the Margaret L. Kempner Playground, named after Nan's mother in law.

[23:14] Jessica: No way.

[23:16] Meg: As I see it, it's the Best of all worlds.

[23:20] Jessica: I think we need to go play there.

[23:22] Meg: We could walk over right now.

[23:23] Jessica: That's what I'm saying.

[23:24] Meg: It's just a couple blocks from where we are right now.

[23:26] Jessica: Indeed it is. In a couple of weeks, our usual recording time, it will be bright outside. True. Because of the seasons changing. So yeah, we can maybe we'll do

[23:39] Meg: a little field trip. But I'm so glad it's coming back into vogue because when my kids, we're growing up, it was all that, like, super colorful. I mean, I didn't see it as a bad thing, all the padding and everything, but it was so different from what I grew up on, which I just didn't really realize until reading all these articles and going like, that's right. I mean, the ancient playground. You're not gonna find your kid. You will not see your kid for hours. You will be calling, hello, child, we need to go home now. And they can completely ignore you and you are out of luck. And when they renovated just. I can't remember when it. It wasn't that long ago that they renovated the ancient playground. I mean, those concrete structures lasted for quite a while. Right. But when they renovated it, it's still, I think probably because of preservationists, it still has that adventure playground vibe.

[24:39] Jessica: Yeah. I think another reason that I would make a. Well, it's not that I would make a bad parent. I would. I would, I would die from anxiety if I get over it. Oh, okay. Good to know. Good to know.

[24:53] Meg: The early days. The early days are rough, but at some point you're like, eh.

[24:58] Jessica: Said the woman who was trying to find her daughter, who is a senior in high school, running up and down 23rd street, was it?

[25:09] Meg: Oh, no, no, no, no. We had located her phone to the mid-50s and we were pinging it and we were like, well, if she's not waking up to that, then she's dead. That's it. Or somebody has her like tied up in a. In a closet. Yeah, no, the police, they. They were not helpful.

[25:29] Jessica: No. Nope, they were not.

[25:31] Meg: But she was safe. Just for the record. She was safe.

[25:34] Jessica: Thank God. I mean, we can joke about it

[25:36] Meg: because it was traumatic.

[25:37] Jessica: She is safe. It was very, very traumatic. But yes, knowing where your child is tends to be a good thing. But yeah, the. The playgrounds are amazing. And I think it's so funny that you know, when you're just saying, do you remember? I'm thinking about all of those, you know, primary color plastic playground sets. And I just remembered as a little kid, there are two things. The first is thinking, well, there are some things on this playground that are not for me yet. I'm too little. And so there was kind of this, like, oh, I'm going to grow up and be able to be on the Fill in the blank. Because, like, some of these things were constructed. Like, if you were. It was like, you are too short to be on this ride.

[26:23] Meg: Oh, yes.

[26:23] Jessica: Like, your little legs could not stretch to where you needed to be to be safe. And then there were also just, you know, they were, I think, to anyone with a pulse, intrinsically dangerous. Like, you could tell. It was like, well, I can crawl up the rocket ship, but going down on the searing hot frying pan of a slide? I don't know, Mom.

[26:45] Meg: And I gotta say, Gen X has the scars to prove it.

[26:51] Jessica: Yeah, the little scar. What's the dent in your forehead? Well.

[26:55] Meg: Oh, it was a playground scar. Yeah.

[26:56] Jessica: Yeah.

[26:57] Meg: And I don't know if kids have playground scars anymore.

[26:59] Jessica: They're just emotional. They're on the inside. Welcome to another stream of consciousness.

[27:15] Meg: Okay.

[27:17] Jessica: Did you ever watch the movie the Day the Earth Stood Still?

[27:22] Meg: I don't know that I did.

[27:25] Jessica: Well, in it is a character called Klaatu. K, L, A, A, T, U.

[27:33] Meg: Okay. Are you going to tell me what it was about?

[27:35] Jessica: Not really. It's not important.

[27:36] Meg: Oh, okay.

[27:37] Jessica: But this is, you know, it's like, you know, who's coming to control the Earth and blah, blah, blah.

[27:43] Meg: Sounds like there was a reason I didn't watch it.

[27:44] Jessica: Yes, entirely. Interestingly, though, there was a band that was formed in 1973 by the same name, Klaatu, and they were kind of genius, hilarious, like a duo that was, you know, sort of like a band with others that subbed in, but they did this whole album of, like, really weird random topics on the album. And one of the tracks on the album is called Sub Rosa Subway, and it tells the story. And I love this album because almost every song is a story, and it was so compelling that I had to look it up. So this album is from 1976, and Sub Rosa Subway tells the story of Alfred beach, who in 1870, invented the first pneumatic subway.

[28:44] Meg: Okay.

[28:45] Jessica: And using the power of air, was shoving subway trains through the first circular vaulted tunnels underground in Manhattan.

[28:58] Meg: Now, was it just an idea or did it work?

[29:02] Jessica: He did it. So here's what's really interesting, and some of the stuff that I always get into comes up in this story. Alfred Beech was from a super rich family and he was an inventor. He Owned and worked on many different patents, and quite the genius. And he and his brother bought Scientific American magazine soon after it was created. And they became the publishers forever. These and, like, their. The family owned the Herald. Like, they're really interesting people. So he had this idea, and he wanted to get funding to have the first subway because the metro in London really inspired him, as did the use of pneumatic tubes to share information. So he was all into this. However, the only way he was trying to raise money to do it, but the only way that he could raise money in New York City to do this is if he got into bed with Boss Tweed.

[30:00] Meg: Oh, no.

[30:01] Jessica: And he was like, that's what Alfred beach said. He was like, that seems like a good way to end up at the bottom of the river. No, thank you. He said, screw it. I'm gonna fund this myself. Underneath City Hall Station, below that, is Alfred Beach's original pneumatic subway. What? Still there.

[30:24] Meg: What?

[30:25] Jessica: And people used to go on tours of it.

[30:27] Meg: We can't anymore.

[30:29] Jessica: I don't think so. But it doesn't mean that it's not there. I just don't know if you can tour it. And some of the footage that was either the inspiration for or partly used in the filming of the original Ghostbusters. Remember when they go all the way down to the slime tunnel?

[30:46] Meg: Yeah.

[30:46] Jessica: That's all based on Alfred Beach's subway. His pneumatic subway. I was always, like, fascinated by this. And I thought, oh, this is so amazing. And so what I found out and the reason that I was thinking about Alfred beach and his insistence on being the first to create the real New York subway, because prior to that, the L train was all over the place.

[31:11] Meg: And more than one above ground.

[31:13] Jessica: Exactly. And this is also around the time that the IRT Interborough Rapid Transit was created. Some of the people who also were not interested in the subway, by the way, were the people who you might find in the. In the series, the Gilded Age, like John Jacob Astor, the Astor family, because they owned stores and businesses on Broadway under which Alfred Beach's subway was going to run. And they were like, we don't want the disruption.

[31:45] Meg: Well, you know, anyone who's lived along Second Avenue for the past 20 years can attest it's kind of a. It's a drag.

[31:53] Jessica: Indeed.

[31:53] Meg: But we love the queue. We love.

[31:56] Jessica: I love the. I've become obsessed with the queue lately.

[31:59] Meg: The queue is basically made for someone exactly like you.

[32:02] Jessica: It is. I'm like, I want to be honest.

[32:03] Meg: It doesn't come all the way down to me. I of course live on second Avenue. I'm riff raff.

[32:10] Jessica: Eventually find.

[32:11] Meg: No, we will not. They ignore us. Friggin Upper East.

[32:15] Jessica: But you've got your ferry.

[32:17] Meg: That's true.

[32:18] Jessica: You have the ferry practically at your doorstep. I'm just saying you have the ferry, Grouse. So Alfred beach proved not only did he have the theory, but he built it on his own dime. And I think it ran a total of 700ft and it went around a corner and so sorry, I should have all of its mobility.

[32:37] Meg: No, no, very impressive.

[32:38] Jessica: But that was, that was all he was able to get away with. But the reason that all of this, you know, my usual 19th century lore of New York came to me was because on this day in 1985, what happened in the New York subway system? Well, I'll tell you because I know you're fascinated. No one died, to the best of my knowledge. This is not a gruesome tale. It was the arrival of the first Japanese super clean cars that resisted graffiti. Do you remember these?

[33:16] Meg: Yeah.

[33:16] Jessica: They were premiered on the IRT line and they didn't actually all go into use until 1987, but when you go on the subway now and you're like, oh, geez, it's one of these cars with the, the orange and red and yellow fiberglass, blah, blah, blah. In 1985, this was a godsend. They were clean. You had poles that you could hold onto instead of the hooks and the straps, thereby eradicating the New York phrase for people on the subway. Or the bus strap hangers.

[33:54] Meg: I miss the straps, but that's me.

[33:57] Jessica: Well, you know, they went from strap to metal. Weird metal hook.

[34:03] Meg: Right. That kind of swung.

[34:05] Jessica: Exactly. And immediately, if there, if there was a short stop, would catapult you. If you were holding onto that thing, good luck to you. It was just a way to sling you down the car.

[34:16] Meg: But also, if I can say before that you had a subway bench where you would just squeeze as many people as you could.

[34:25] Jessica: Exactly.

[34:26] Meg: And people were of different widths and that was great. You just took up as much space as you needed to take up. But when they transitioned to these little orange seats, they assumed that everybody has the same size rump.

[34:39] Jessica: It's very first off, you've got rump, and I love you for rump. Well, funny enough, that's exactly what the complaint was. So this wonderful article from the New York Times, April 1, 1984, not 85. It starts off by describing they would be called train spotters if they were not in New York City, but a grandfather and his grandson who were very excited to see the new, as they were called, Silver Bullet cars, Silver Bullet trains going into use. Not full time use, they were being demonstrated. So that was the very big deal. Now I personally have had a lot of annoyance as of late on the subway because well, there are a lot of people who take up more seat than they're entitled to.

[35:28] Meg: I agree.

[35:30] Jessica: And what's worse is that if you say excuse me, you are given worse than the stink eye, they won't move. And then because I am me, I am forced to then shove my ample rump into the remaining sliver that's either left over by a hogger of seat or a manspreader.

[35:53] Meg: Exactly. And the fact is if the rump is a large rump, it will spill over. But you are expected to then take up 2/3 of the seat next to you because that's all that's left over. Which would not be a problem if it was just a flat friggin bench.

[36:12] Jessica: Exactly. And so says Robert Geyer, a Queen's bus driver who loves trains. Quote, they call me Choo Choo Bob. Which by the way is something that we now have to start calling someone who does Bob. They, who they, they do. His fans, his family, who knows? But he took his little seven year old grandson after breakfast to go check out the 7 train which was going to be exhibiting the new Silver Bullet.

[36:41] Meg: That actually does sound like Bun's. Seven year olds love the trains.

[36:44] Jessica: Exactly. And some of the features of the Japanese train that was so new to New York City. So again, you know, death traps. Talk about death traps. The window of the driver's cab in the new Silver Bullet was able to withstand a brick hitting it at 40 miles an hour.

[37:02] Meg: Well, thank God. Why do they need to do that though?

[37:05] Jessica: Well, I don't know. Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. Of Tokyo clearly had some experience with something terrible hitting the windscreen. And the acrylic plastic windows could not be kicked out in tests in Japan. So all very, very good.

[37:22] Meg: What's this? War on subway cars?

[37:25] Jessica: Who? The warriors for one.

[37:27] Meg: No, they, they liked the subways.

[37:29] Jessica: They weren't into the subways for their own nefarious uses. I don't know. But George May, a truck driver who was on his way to the dentist in Flushing, said that the trains were a pleasure to ride. And yet darkly he says, I wonder how long they'll stay like this.

[37:46] Meg: Ugh.

[37:47] Jessica: Well, pessimist Mr. May said that he usually rode the A train. It's all dirty and full of graffiti. It makes you feel blah. But this Silver Bullet makes you feel good. Okay. You ride this and then you get on another train and the brakes are screeching and the people are grouchy, the doors don't close. The difference is unbelievable. This ride is worth it. However, the portly Mr. Gayer, the train buff. Choo Choo Bob.

[38:17] Meg: Wait, they call him portly? Yes. Oh, my Lord.

[38:21] Jessica: His only complaint is that the seats are too small. Yeah. So the Silver Bullet train is actually what we now all live with and know and think of simply as the subway.

[38:34] Meg: I could be wrong, but I think they are being phased out.

[38:37] Jessica: They are. I don't know what the new one is, but these, I mean, think about it. These trains have been in use since 1984.

[38:45] Meg: And are they really graffiti proof?

[38:48] Jessica: I remember these being. This being a news item at the time especially.

[38:53] Meg: They were.

[38:54] Jessica: Yeah. Whatever they were treated with or whatever, it was either like the paint wouldn't take or the paint was easily hosed off.

[39:02] Meg: Okay, all right.

[39:03] Jessica: Yes. But if you, if you take a moment to look, I mean, we've, we've posted many photos of subway cars from the 70s and early, early 80s. And you know, they are positively covered. And the interiors are benches covered in graffiti.

[39:22] Meg: Really dimly lit.

[39:24] Jessica: So dimly lit. And the floors were very torn up looking. And so by contrast, thinking back on it now, the Silver Bullet was very exciting. And I remember the, you know, the poles that we have. I think that the poles didn't exist at the time. I don't think there was anything running down the middle. I think it was just on the sides. Also. My feeling is that because of the Silver Bullet train, that's the construction, the interior construction is why suddenly it was showtime inside the car. Because there were jungle gyms inside the subway.

[40:06] Meg: Do appreciate a good show for people who don't live in New York. Can you describe what a Showtime show means in the subway?

[40:14] Jessica: It's showtime started. It's not just a show. It's. It's showtime. It was always, and it was sort of coincided also with the ascendance of breakdancing. Always. Young guys, I don't think I've ever seen girls doing this. Maybe a group of like three to five teenage boys, maybe early 20s, would get on the car. Still very raucous, but in a fun, loving spirit. And they would say, it's showtime. And everyone on the car would be like, ugh. And they would set up a boombox and they would start breakdancing. But it Evolved to climbing all over the poles and the crossbeams up above, everybody flipping, gymnastics, athletic displays, never hitting anybody or very rarely, let's be honest, all over the place, flipping and flipping and cheerful. Yeah. And then you would see people who were like God damn those. And then by the time they were finished, everyone's like, well that was actually kind of impressive. Yeah, very impressive. Wow. But you always knew who it was because it wasn't like panhandling or every now and then you'd get a mariachi band, something like that.

[41:35] Meg: This is still the case.

[41:36] Jessica: But yes, the show time was mostly

[41:38] Meg: in Brooklyn I would say though I feel like I don't see a lot of that going on on Manhattan subways. But once you cross over the river, that's when showtime.

[41:49] Jessica: But you would also get a lot of that at the Times Square stop. And I think that's for the tourist stuff that you get.

[41:56] Meg: I love the discussion of subway improvements. What do you think of this latest thing to try to prevent people from jumping over the turnstile which was ubiquitous in our youth?

[42:10] Jessica: Yeah. Oh my God.

[42:11] Meg: Above, below, like whatever you needed to do, not a problem, right?

[42:15] Jessica: Well, I think it's kind of hilarious because what they've done is they've put something that's, it's a semicircular piece that's maybe at its tallest point, 4 inches tall. And so I don't know who they think that's preventing.

[42:32] Meg: I have seen people now take that on as a challenge. Yeah, like I can leap high, 4 inches higher than I did last time, no problem.

[42:41] Jessica: I mean all that these kids are doing anyway is they're supporting themselves on either side of the turnstile and vaulting over 4 inches is the difference for them.

[42:52] Meg: And do you, can you imagine how much that renovation cost to get all of those turnstiles replaced? To what end?

[43:00] Jessica: Zero.

[43:01] Meg: Also by the way, I'm just going to say it. People should be able to go on the subway and not have it cost three friggin dollars a ride. That is really expensive for something that is an absolute necessity in order to get to school and to work.

[43:17] Jessica: I couldn't agree with you more.

[43:19] Meg: And play that.

[43:21] Jessica: And the buses, quite frankly, the number of people who were getting on the back of the bus was. I mean I, I'm sure you have seen this many, many, many times, my dear friend. Fare required is now on the front of every bus. The lit up, you know, signage that tells you you're getting on the M1, M2, whatever. As the bus is pulling up to the stop fare required. Right.

[43:48] Meg: And when we were younger, I guess because skateboards were a bigger deal then than they are now, kids mostly would be on skateboards and grab onto the back of a bus. And that was normal.

[44:01] Jessica: Yes.

[44:01] Meg: And that was how they got to school, some of them.

[44:04] Jessica: Skateboards and roller skates. Yes.

[44:07] Meg: Crazy dangerous. Don't do it.

[44:08] Jessica: No, no. Nope, nope, no. And just think about what you're inhaling even if you do make it to school without getting squished. What I recall is even back when it was 75 cents, we would, at school, you know, we had our bus passes. And if you misplaced your bus pass, you would xerox someone else's, color it in with a marker that was the same color as that month's bus pass and try to pass that off. And if that didn't work, we had a sleight of hand where one person would use their bus pass, put it in their quote pocket behind them, slip it to the person in back of them and see how many people could get on. On the one bus pass.

[44:49] Meg: You clever one. I never had a bus pass because I live two blocks from school. And you have to live a certain distance from school to get a bus pass. To get a bus pass. So I always had to pay.

[45:02] Jessica: Yes. And I mean, and obviously, like there are for kids, there's that, there's senior citizens discounted bus passes. Really? Or, or you know.

[45:12] Meg: Yeah, my mom has one, but I guess now it's different.

[45:14] Jessica: It's like a, it's like a Metro card, but it's not a, it's an omni card or whatever. But it's got a senior discount on it. Whatever. But I agree with you. I think that $3 is sheer madness. And yeah, $6 a day even if, if you're taking only one subway. And I know that there are free connections. So like if you take the Lexington line and then you take the 79th crosstown bus, you get a free connection nonetheless. Ridiculously expensive.

[45:49] Meg: Absolutely.

[45:50] Jessica: But back in 1984, the promise of the shiny new Kawasaki Silver Bullet still was a dream. A dream come true for Choo Choo Bomb.

[46:12] Meg: So you just said, we're very clear on the tie ins.

[46:15] Jessica: We have jungle gyms both on the train and in, in the playground. True.

[46:20] Meg: No, that's very good. Yeah, I was thinking something adjacent to that. Just children having fun in the city, whether it's in, you know, on a subway car, strange Brutalist mound in the

[46:33] Jessica: middle of Central Park. Start a band called Brutalist Mound.

[46:38] Meg: Brutalist Mound.

[46:39] Jessica: It's like weirdly sexual but also terrifying. I don't know, it's kind of interesting.

[46:44] Meg: But also riding the subway with Choo Choo Bob.

[46:48] Jessica: Riding the subway. Choo Choo Bob. And it's showtime.

[46:57] Meg: Well, you know, when Billy was little, thing was it Five Points where all the graffiti was in Brooklyn. There's an area of Brooklyn where all the buildings were just covered tip to toe with graffiti everywhere. And they turned them into condos and they destroyed all of that graffiti. But when Billy was little, it was still there. And we would just take the subway. And when the subway came out of the tunnel, you could see this colorful buildings and Billy was plastered to the window to see all the graffiti out the subway window. City kids.

[47:37] Jessica: City kids do have a different perspective.

[47:41] Meg: Now we have an announcement. As we promised two weeks ago, we're going to keep it a little under wraps. Under wraps until the big, big announcement, which will probably be next week. But for now, we're going to say save. Save the date. Save the date.

[48:01] Jessica: Save the date.

[48:02] Meg: May 14, 7 to 9:30. Be there or be square. You can put that on your calendar right now and then we'll give you details next week.

[48:13] Jessica: I love that you made it threatening. Be there, be square. No, not square. Not that.

[48:23] Meg: Yeah.

[48:23] Jessica: Prepare for fun, Sam.