[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:18] Jessica: And I'm Jessica. Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we

[00:27] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:32] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:33] Meg: So last week's episode, Jessica.

[00:35] Jessica: Yeah.

[00:36] Meg: You talked a lot about women comedians. Yes. And how 1983 was a really big year for them. And that night, if you recall, I said, oh, my God, I have to go. I'm gonna be late. Because I was going to see a friend's show at KGB Bar, upstairs in the red room. And guess what? It was comedy. It was a woman doing comedy. Her name is Meg Spector. Her show was the Meg Spector Spectacular. And I'd been meaning to see it because everyone talks about it because it's so much frigging fun. And it was. And I'm totally gonna drag you to it the next time she does it. And she also did something really frigging cool. All of the other acts she brought up were all women comedians. Alex Arthur, Carly Marulli, Molly Vivint, and Whitley Watson. And so it was a night of Gen Z comedy. All women. So much fun.

[01:44] Jessica: Was there Gen Z comedy about how they weren't allowed to do anything as children.

[01:48] Meg: What do you mean? Is that true?

[01:50] Jessica: Well, you know, they're helicopter parented beyond belief.

[01:53] Meg: That was not part of it.

[01:54] Jessica: Oh, well, no, it's my Gen X riff on Gen Z, I guess.

[01:59] Meg: So you do need to come with me so you can learn more about this.

[02:02] Jessica: You see, I want to celebrate female comedians. And then my natural misanthropic bile comes right out.

[02:11] Meg: She actually did a whole thing on her abortion, and it was really funny. And she brought her boyfriend up. Okay. You have to be there to appreciate it.

[02:20] Jessica: No, no, it's not that I don't have anything bad to say about that. I just shocked. And I was thinking, as you said it, about the show that has been the play that has been performed in London. I think it's still being performed. Is it called the Years or the Hours or the. Something like that. And it's different women playing, I think, the same woman at different parts of her life. And there's a portion of of the show where a woman describes her abortion in great detail and men were fainting in the audience.

[02:57] Meg: Oh, this isn't like that.

[02:59] Jessica: No, I know, but that's what it made me think of.

[03:02] Meg: And I also. I want you to look at the poster Because I think it will also reveal a lot to you about the vibe of the show.

[03:10] Jessica: It looks like it's from Clueless. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. It's adorable. I'm very excited to go. I support all women in all things.

[03:18] Meg: I'm a huge fan of Meg Spector in particular, and now a new fan

[03:24] Jessica: of the how do you know Meg Spector?

[03:26] Meg: People that she brought up on stage to entertain me. I know her through BCTR and we've been in a few readings with each other just as an actor. Yeah. Cool.

[03:38] Jessica: Yeah. That's hot. That's hot. It's really hot.

[03:52] Meg: I've never asked her you this question

[03:55] Jessica: in all the years we've known one another.

[03:57] Meg: Yes.

[03:58] Jessica: Really? In 43 years? I know you've never asked me this. I can't be more excited.

[04:06] Meg: Why did your family come to New York?

[04:09] Jessica: Because they were born here.

[04:11] Meg: Why did their parents come to New York?

[04:12] Jessica: Oh, oh, oh. Like, way, way back. Yeah. My father.

[04:15] Meg: How many generations are.

[04:16] Jessica: My father is first generation New York. His parents were born in Russia.

[04:21] Meg: Got it. Why did they flee?

[04:23] Jessica: They fled. The pogroms. All right, so not wanting to die, they came here.

[04:29] Meg: That's incentive.

[04:30] Jessica: Czarist Russia, not so good. And my mother's side? I have no idea. They came, to the best of my knowledge, prior to the late 19th century, like 1880s, 1890s wave of Jewish immigrants. They were. Before that, they were solidly middle class. And so I don't know what their issue was. I mean, when. Look, the reality is. And maybe this is incredibly incorrect, but I just always assumed that Jewish families were getting out of Europe or. And they were Austrian. And so my. What I'm talking about actually is my grandfather's side of the family. My grandmother is an interesting story. She was born in Hungary, in Budapest, and her parents came to the United States for job opportunities to make money. And then her parents. And in a wildly unusual move for, you know, the 19 teens, they got divorced. And then she and her mother went back to Budapest. And then like a year or two later, they came back to New York not to be with her father. Okay. But I think her mother just decided, like, you know, there is more opportunity there. And that's just what we're gonna do.

[05:59] Meg: Thank you for sharing.

[06:01] Jessica: You're welcome.

[06:02] Meg: My sources are the Encyclopedia Britannica.

[06:06] Jessica: Get out of town. Oh, my God. Did you pull that out of a box in your mother's basem. Is that like. No, we've got. We got the whole set.

[06:16] Meg: I still have the one that I brought. Well, I've got two Encyclopedia Britannicas. I've got the one that I inherited from my grandfather that was in his library. That's just beautiful old books. I don't even know how to.

[06:31] Jessica: Wildly. Not like, I know it's totally inaccurate,

[06:35] Meg: but they're really great to stack up when you need to put a tripod on it or.

[06:40] Jessica: Yeah, I was gonna say. Or like, just something to put a lamp on. But you know what's fascinating? It just occurred to me, you have such a window into whatever the worldview was at that time.

[06:50] Meg: All of his bookmarks really are still in there.

[06:54] Jessica: That's very cool because he used to

[06:57] Meg: speak at church a lot, in his church groups a lot. And so he would. And also, I mean, he was a speech maker. He was known for being a speech maker. So people are always asking him to speak on things. And he referenced his Encyclopedia Britannica, clearly. That is very cool. I also have the one that I

[07:19] Jessica: brought with me to college, the abridged Encyclopedia of Britannica.

[07:23] Meg: It's just one huge book.

[07:25] Jessica: Yes.

[07:26] Meg: It's beautiful, though. It's illustrated, very useful. The way that it's organized is brilliant, I recall. But again, it only goes through Reagan.

[07:35] Jessica: There you go. I had the same thing. And I remember, in fact, on my bottom shelf somewhere, I had a matching or a set. It was Webster's Dictionary and Thesaurus. And I had that with my. Like you had, you know, compiled Encyclopedia Britannica in college.

[07:58] Meg: That's what we got when we went to school.

[08:00] Jessica: Exactly. That was it.

[08:02] Meg: Instead of a computer. Cause that wasn't a thing really yet.

[08:06] Jessica: No, our computers were word processors. Yeah, that was really all they were good for anyway.

[08:11] Meg: Reference books.

[08:13] Jessica: Reference books.

[08:15] Meg: Another source for this story is the New York Times, obviously. And this story was sparked by an article that our good friend Alex Smith sent me. On the Last week of April 1980, Abel Mendez was reunited with his best friend Oswaldo Perez in Brooklyn. The two young men had traveled from their native Cuba to Florida as part of the Mariel boat lift, which brought 125,000 refugees to the U.S. but the two men had been split up upon arrival on April 1. I'm not going to talk about the boat lift on April 1st. Back in Havana, a group of Cubans had stormed the Peruvian Embassy, request asylum from Castro's oppression. Over the next few days, a number of embassies were swarmed by people desperate to leave Cuba. And the numbers grew. A terrible economy under a fascist dictator made life there Tough echoes.

[09:23] Jessica: Interesting.

[09:26] Meg: After he was unable to contain the mobs, Castro buckled, and officials announced over a loudspeaker that anyone who wanted to leave Cuba was allowed to go. And with that, Castro opened the port of Mariel. 125,000 refugees headed for the Florida coast by boat and plane. Oswaldo, an architecture student, and Abel, a geography student at the University of Havana, were excited by the promise of freedom and. And opportunity possible in the US Florida freaked out when the refugees all showed up and scrambled to find places for them all. Oswaldo was sent to a detention center in Arkansas, and Abel stayed for a week in a makeshift camp at Miami's Orange Bowl. Abel had relatives in Brooklyn who sponsored him, and he was allowed to move in with his aunt. His uncle gave him a job selling candy in times square for $2 an hour. He also worked as a handyman. He tried selling encyclopedias in the Bronx, but that didn't work out. He was often hungry enough to scavenge for food in grocery store dumpsters. Oswaldo eventually made his way to Brooklyn, too, and was making money as a food delivery boy. And the two friends got back in touch. Oswaldo met a guy who was fascinated by his background in architecture and told him that the wife of his friend Tom Brokaw.

[11:05] Jessica: No.

[11:06] Meg: Was looking for a window dresser. Now, Tom Brokaw, as you know, was co anchor on the Today show with Jane Pauley, but he would soon become anchor of the NBC Nightly News for the next 22 years. And his wife, Meredith, was. Owned a toy store on the Upper east side and needed some help. Oswaldo and Meredith Brokaw got on wonderfully, despite the language barrier. In the meantime, Abel was taking English as a second language. Incidentally, my mother taught English as a second language at the Junior league on East 80th. Huh.

[11:46] Jessica: Interesting. Yes.

[11:48] Meg: Abel's teacher was also a Cuban immigrant, and he helped him through the high school equivalency program and eventually into Mercy College's bilingual program. Four nights a week and all day Saturday. So Abel's, like, working hard.

[12:03] Jessica: He's crankered. Cranking.

[12:05] Meg: He is. Oswaldo recommend Abel as a stock boy at the toy store, and Meredith brought him on as well. This is a quote from Meredith. It was just one of those serendipitous occurrences. We needed people. He was recommended by a friend, and I thought, well, why not? I can take a chance here.

[12:24] Jessica: What was the name of the toy store?

[12:26] Meg: You'll find out. As for Abel, he asked one of his professors if he should take the job, and the professor said, quote Work hard, be honest, and do every task with which you are presented to the best of your ability. And Meredith barely had to tell Abel what to do at all. He seemed to understand what was needed instinctively. And Penny Whistle wasn't a typical toy store. Neat.

[12:57] Jessica: That was lovely.

[12:59] Meg: Located on Madison between 91st and 92nd, it opened in 1979 and had a clear philosophy. No guns, no Star wars, no Barbies. Only good quality toys with a lot of play value. And now I will say personally, because I grew up just a couple blocks from this toy store and spent many an hour in it. I remember the rack of tiny little treasures. They had little nooks for them, little rubber animals and super bouncy balls and Silly putty. And Penny Whistle manufactured their own bubble bear with a top hat to remember that.

[13:44] Jessica: Oh yes, I do.

[13:45] Meg: Whose wand would pop up when you squeeze him. Brilliant design. And I remember the wooden train sets. There were camp care packages with a.

[13:56] Jessica: Oh my gosh, I remember those so well.

[13:59] Meg: A teach yourself to juggle kit and a dinosaur water squirter. And they sold for $16, including postage. It's the Upper east side, so Penny Whistle was also able to supply $46 scooters for party favors and a 450 stuffed rocking horse with a genuine leather saddle. Now, Abel maneuvered his way around the children and their parents as if he was born for this job. By now he had his bachelor's in math from Mercy College. And soon he took over the store's accounting.

[14:39] Jessica: Wow.

[14:40] Meg: Now many people would not have trusted Amarilito with their books. Before Castro opened the port, he released many violent criminals from prison and mental patients from hospitals in hopes that they would take the opportunity to leave. He even said that if you were homosexual, he would put you at the front of the line. So many people in the US Assumed most of the Mariel boatlift refugees were criminals. And it was a stigma that was hard to shake. Al Pacino's character.

[15:14] Jessica: Get out of my head. I was just gonna go down that road.

[15:17] Meg: Yes, totally was written as a maralito, which didn't help. Very popular movie at the time. According to a poll taken in June 1980 by CBS and the New York Times, 71% of Americans disapproved of the boat lift and allowing Cuban nationals to settle in the United States. Thanks to the Cuban Adjustment act enacted by lyndon Johnson in 1966 to piss off Castro. This is where the Encyclopedia Britannica came in. Cubans were allowed access to a green card if they resided in the US for just a Year, really? That was under Lyndon Johnson. So that was an extra incentive. He was just trying to make Castro mad. But then it kind of ended up biting the Cubans later because people were resentful of them, because they had an easier path towards a green card than other immigrants. But anyway, that is just what happened with Abel. And we love Abel. Eventually, as Penny Whistle expanded with stores on Columbus and in Bridgehampton, Meredith made Abel her partner. And then in 1997, Meredith sold him the store.

[16:37] Jessica: Aw.

[16:38] Meg: She was quoted in an article in 1997 saying, I would be feeling a little blue now, but it is a continuation of the pennywhistle family, and I feel just terrific. Abel gave a small down payment from his savings and paid the balance over eight years. Neither Abel nor Meredith would tell anyone what that amount of money was. They kept that to themselves. Oswaldo. Oswaldo. He didn't live to see Abel become a business owner. He died of AIDS in 1992.

[17:17] Jessica: So as this was a true crime, you normally.

[17:19] Meg: Wait, wait. No, I've got more.

[17:20] Jessica: I've got more. Oh, God. Okay.

[17:22] Meg: I was just gonna say.

[17:22] Jessica: So we're just gonna sob for a while.

[17:24] Meg: Sorry. I'm sorry. Well, I was going to say I was very curious early on. How did Oswaldo meet this person who was really good friends with Tom Brokaw, whose wife had a toy store? And I could be wildly wrong about this, but how does a Cuban refugee rub elbows with somebody who is not a Cuban refugee? Perhaps at a gay bar?

[17:57] Jessica: That makes absolute, perfect sense.

[18:00] Meg: And sorry I didn't include this in the story, but the friend of Tom Brokaw worked at NBC, so it's just this class difference that I'm like, how did these two people meet? They very well may have met at a bar. Doesn't that make sense? They probably didn't meet when he was busing tables.

[18:19] Jessica: No, no.

[18:21] Meg: Anyway. Well. And that's also total conjecture. Total conjecture.

[18:25] Jessica: No, I mean, it's good conjecture, because we also know that gay nightlife or gay life in New York City at that time was a great leveler. So, yeah, that totally makes sense.

[18:38] Meg: And that Castro did say, actually, if you.

[18:41] Jessica: Yeah.

[18:41] Meg: Get to the front of the line, you may leave. And I'm not gonna.

[18:45] Jessica: I wonder how that was substantiated.

[18:47] Meg: Actually, a lot of people said, I'm gay.

[18:49] Jessica: That's what I'm saying. I would have been like, I'm gayer than gay. Get me?

[18:53] Meg: Lots of young people did do that.

[18:56] Jessica: So. Because you normally do true crime, I have been waiting through this entire Story for something hideous to happen.

[19:02] Meg: No, to Abel. This is a heartwarming story. And I've got one more thing. This is a quote from Abel. I didn't want to come to a second rate Cuba or a make believe Havana. I wanted to come to the US to what I had seen in movies. I have been very lucky. My life is here, the future is here. But my nightmares and my dreams are all about Cuba. Abel. The reason I love this story obviously. Penny Whistle was absolutely my favorite toy store. Growing for very good reason. And you know what? I always thought that it was owned by Phoebe Kate's family. I made that up. No, no, no, no, no.

[19:47] Jessica: It's just the building.

[19:47] Meg: It's just the building, I guess. Oh, oh, her family owned the building.

[19:51] Jessica: Oh, okay.

[19:53] Meg: So I wasn't crazy. Anyway, and now, now Blue Tree has moved. But Blue Tree used to be in the Penny Whistle spot.

[20:02] Jessica: Same spot. Penny Whistle Whistle's family owns that building.

[20:07] Meg: Okay, great. So I'm glad I'm not totally crazy. But Blue Tree is now absolutely one of my favorite stores. And. And I think about pennywhistle every single time I walk in there.

[20:19] Jessica: How delightful.

[20:21] Meg: And by the way, and this is going to make you a little annoyed even though this is such a beautiful story.

[20:26] Jessica: Are you sure that I want to be annoyed right now?

[20:29] Meg: Stephen Miller.

[20:30] Jessica: Oh, fuck.

[20:31] Meg: That guy cites the boat lift in his draconian immigration policies and he can go fuck himself.

[20:40] Jessica: Do we know? Forget Stephen Miller because he's just a trash bag of a human being and should just be given zero airtime. Like someone just needs to put him in a put baby in a corner right now.

[20:53] Meg: I'm sure Trump keeps him in a little box because he's so ugly. And Trump can't stand looking at ugly people.

[20:59] Jessica: I know. He just lets them out of his

[21:00] Meg: box every once in a while.

[21:02] Jessica: Or he has a brown paper bag over his head and whips the bag bag off. It's like Steven speak. That puts the bag back on. Do we know any of the statistics of about crime in Miami after the boat lift?

[21:16] Meg: That was interesting. I did look into that. That's when you get this sense of slanted reporting, to be honest, because I couldn't find anything that didn't have an opinion about it. And it was. And it all felt anecdotal.

[21:34] Jessica: Oh, interesting.

[21:35] Meg: So I would find one article that said it was this very, very small percentage of actual criminals who came. And then another, so you know, that was just completely overstated. And then another article that would say 40% of the people who are locked up right now can be tracked back to the boat lift. And it was just like. It just depends on who you talk to.

[22:10] Jessica: So, Meg, before I do my spiel for today, while I was doing my research, I ran across the most insane thing, which is a postscript to the segment that you did, episode 22, which was called. It's my favorite title. Eddie Goes crazy in Karen Poops a Yam. And you discovered what was the number of that episode? Number 22. It was July 19, 2022, as well. So a lot of 22s. And Meg discovers Crazy Eddie wasn't quite what he seemed. And what we found out was that Crazy Eddie was, in fact, like, his whole store was basically a way for him to skim money and embezzle money from his family. And they all went nuts. So I was doing my research for my own shtick today, and I found. I regrettably, at first, ran across Fox News Online. Ew. And then I was like, wait a minute. What am I looking at? So let me tell you. This was published April 27, 2025. One of Crazy Eddie Antar's family members, Sam, was part of the whole scheme and was benefiting from the embezzlement. Sam Antar, who kept the books for Crazy Eddie and helped him to skim cash, says he knows every fraud in the book. He knows how to smell a rat. He knows how to do forensic accounting. He can see from a mile away. Cause he was a rat when. When someone is being a bad actor.

[23:56] Meg: Okay.

[23:57] Jessica: And in fact, after pleading guilty to multiple felonies, he cooperated with prosecutors to help convict Eddie.

[24:05] Meg: Nice.

[24:05] Jessica: And he reinvented himself as a fraud expert for government agencies and law firms.

[24:13] Meg: Enterprising.

[24:14] Jessica: He runs a website where he posts about his various investigations. Huh. Right.

[24:19] Meg: Well, criminal turned.

[24:22] Jessica: It's sort of like catch me if you can.

[24:24] Meg: Yeah, right.

[24:25] Jessica: Like I was a Czech forger, and now I find check forgers. Yeah. Okay. Backed by his renowned reputation in the field of uncovering white collar fraud, he has identified that Letitia James, who was accusing, as we know, Donald Trump of mortgage fraud, he said, she's guilty of. It really gets better.

[24:50] Meg: I think I know this story, he says, because she went on vacation with her boyfriend.

[24:54] Jessica: I'm not. He says, I'm not the Trump administration. I was investigating Tish James because that is what I do. I took all kinds of risks doing it, from retaliation to libel to reputational risk. But I stand by everything. He says that he uncovered documents stretching back as far as 1983 that he says indicate James may have been misrepresenting her financial situation for decades in order to nail sweetheart loans from lenders.

[25:24] Meg: Were you convinced?

[25:26] Jessica: No.

[25:26] Meg: Yeah, from what I've heard, it's.

[25:28] Jessica: No, it's complete bullshit. And it's obviously a way for him to give himself some publicity, especially on Fox News. Right. And he has made allegations. And she's like, would you like to look at my books for real? Would you like to.

[25:44] Meg: So instead of conjecture.

[25:45] Jessica: Exactly. So, well, he claims that he has been looking at it. And she's like, I don't think so. So anyway, that was. I was like, the antars are at it again. You can't keep some crazy nut balls down.

[26:01] Meg: Crazy. Crazy.

[26:02] Jessica: Yeah. So there they are, still at it. What I'm gonna talk about today, you know my dear friend Kelly in London. Kelly and I. So Kelly came to live in New York City right after graduation. And like the rest of us was trying to find work, trying to find something to do. And we were reminiscing about the ridiculous jobs that we had. And she's like, remember temping? And I was like, oh, yes, do I ever? And then she said, do you remember, Dante? And I was like, I do. What is that? So in a flash, the entire world of being a temp came back. So all of these temp agencies were on Madison Avenue. I have no idea if they even exist anymore, but there are all of these shabby office buildings on Madison Avenue and they were walk ups. And you walked up to whatever this temp agency was through a variety of ways which I will describe. You would petition potentially get work. And this guy Dante, like, we were lucky because nothing ever happened, but he was the sleaziest guy. It was just like a guy and the phones and the people who would go to Dante's. Like, the. One of the weird things about temping was that you'd be in the main area to find out about the job that you read about in the Village Voice or the New York Times next to someone who's in a tooth optional situation. So you have like the couriers and then all of these recent college grads.

[27:43] Meg: Well, I have a question. So Dante is the guy who's going to hook you up with your temp job?

[27:48] Jessica: Yes, yes.

[27:49] Meg: So all the companies come to him and he says, I gotcha, gal.

[27:53] Jessica: Yes, okay. Or a shuffling toothless man, which is an option, you know, for temp. That's, you know, temping the great leveler. So but Dante, it was like when you Went in there, you knew something grubby was going on, but you didn't know what. So that just got us on a whole, like, oh, my God, do you remember the culture of temping? And then I said, was temping something that really was, like, super 1980s, like, was that of the time? And she was like, I don't know. And we were doing it in the 80s, and then just a little bit in, like, 1991.

[28:36] Meg: I was doing it in the 90s when I got back from graduate school. I didn't do it for very long, though. I needed to take a typing test, and I wasn't very fast. And they wanted me to know all these different programs, like computer programs, and I didn't know them. I was really only good at answering the phone or failing filing. I was very good at stuffing envelopes. That is my special skill.

[29:06] Jessica: Wow, that's good.

[29:08] Meg: I mean, honestly, some people don't want to do that. I love it. Give me a pile of envelopes. It will happen.

[29:14] Jessica: You. You like crafts and busy work. So what more could you. You're folding papers. Crafty. And putting them in envelopes.

[29:23] Meg: Honestly, work. I think I could do that for the rest of my life.

[29:26] Jessica: That is frightening to me. Like, I was. I wanted to be supportive of you. Like, I was. I was digging deep to be like, how can I support Meg by saying that envelope stuffing is a life option for her? No, no. But at least I know that if you're feeling really stressed out, maybe I should just give you, like, a stack of envelopes and a stack of blank paper.

[29:47] Meg: You do do it for Christmas cards every year, and it makes sense.

[29:50] Jessica: But your Christmas cards are wonderful. In fact, if you look at up above you on my bookshelf, I think that was a Valentine's one. But, oh, yeah, it is. Like, your collages are so marvelous. Just you're so.

[30:04] Meg: I'm doing yarn work these days.

[30:06] Jessica: That's my craft. Oh, my God. God help me. I can't. So, anyway, so I started to research the world of temping and why it was that. Like, why was it so shady? But why was it also so prevalent? And you won't believe it. There are answers.

[30:27] Meg: Great.

[30:27] Jessica: You can find them. I'm going to. But first, I'm going to read to you from a LinkedIn profile from someone who had the. Who's talking about being a temp in the 80s. And I swear to God, I don't know what he's on, but it's like, the most glowing, incredible. Like, I Love New York in the 80s. Greed is good. You know, the world is my oyster. I'm like, what were you smoking that. This was how you like? It was crazy. So I'm just gonna give you this quick little anecdotal moment from this person who is very enthusiastic. He's the founder of a temp agency.

[31:08] Meg: Oh.

[31:09] Jessica: Called Temp. A Veteran.

[31:11] Meg: A current temp agency.

[31:12] Jessica: A current temp agency. And he said, in those days, everyone wore suits, shirt with ties, and the ladies wore dresses that complimented the thriving beauty of the good old days.

[31:24] Meg: Oh, my God, I'm gonna be so.

[31:25] Jessica: I. You want to punch me in the face? Anyway, the streets in the Valley of Heroes, which is a thing we know that during lunchtime, had over 500,000 people eating lunch. During lunch breaks and throughout the parks, the crowds of people were everywhere along those high office buildings. Wall street was the envy of the world. Like a festival, people were out in masses to stroll at lunchtime, and many played Frisbee and enjoyed lunch. As we thrived in our success of our amazing times in 1980. I'm like, what? Clearly, this man was tripping. Like, he. What are you talking about? I don't know.

[32:00] Meg: Imagining all these people in power suits throwing Frisbees down Wall Street.

[32:04] Jessica: Exactly. It's so good. The crowds started in the seaport and ran for miles north through Broadway. Seemed that you could get a new job in the morning, quit that same job at lunchtime, and get another new job after lunch till you found a company that you genuinely liked. P.S. no. No. Because that temp agency did not want you. No. If you were quitting jobs left and right. Exactly. So that's also kind of nutty, but interesting that that's his memory. Whereas Kelly and I were, like, shady shit was going on on Madison Avenue, usa. Flags were everywhere with large ads for staffing agencies. Since we had more jobs in every labor category than actual people available for these jobs. The New York Times had thousands of ads in the classified section, page after page every Sunday. And it seemed that we were on top of the world. Every Fortune 500 company had offices in New York City. And we were the leaders of all manufacturing worldwide. We were the envy of the world. So, you know, there's, like, little nuggets of reality in there, but it's a little.

[33:07] Meg: I mean, it does make sense that there was lots of busy work, unskilled labor, let's put it that way. Much more so than possibly now.

[33:16] Jessica: So that goes right into my. Why were temp agencies so useful? And I was like, oh, because of the busy work. Cause guess what? But nothing was automated. The technology that we all take for granted now did not exist.

[33:33] Meg: You actually had to file things alphabetically and know the Alphabet to do that.

[33:39] Jessica: Yeah. Which was, again, tooth optional. Those guys were not Alphabet friendly.

[33:44] Meg: But I have to tell you, even more recently, I can't even remember when it was, but somebody suggests somebody who I was interviewing for something said, you know, alphabetizing isn't really my strong suit. And I was like, you went to college. Make it be your strong suit.

[34:02] Jessica: That's embarrassing. I mean, if you said, like, the Dewey Decimal System is not my strong suit. Okay, maybe. But, like, really.

[34:11] Meg: Right.

[34:11] Jessica: Well, in addition to automation not existing for these, like, repetitive jobs, search engines

[34:19] Meg: were people who read. Who read it.

[34:21] Jessica: Well, you had to.

[34:22] Meg: With a highlighter.

[34:23] Jessica: You had to go to the. You had to go to the public library and look it up. Yeah. So here's some jobs that just as like a quick overview that are either very scarce on the ground now or don't exist. But they did in the 80s because computers, not so much then. Personal shopping. Travel agencies were everywhere.

[34:45] Meg: Oh, yeah. My uncle was a travel agent. What do you mean, personal shopping?

[34:50] Jessica: There were people whose job it was to find whatever it was that you were looking for.

[34:55] Meg: Oh, in Canada right now.

[34:57] Jessica: So now you go online and you're like, black dress, wool, knee length. Here are 19 zillion that I can. Data entry.

[35:07] Meg: Yep.

[35:08] Jessica: The number one job of the recent graduate or college student. Data entry. Any work in print. Magazines had interns and paid interns. You had people who were running. Do you know that there was a huge and thriving printing industry on the west side? Like on Varick Street. Huge printing companies. Gone.

[35:32] Meg: Interesting. All of them. I can imagine those huge buildings. And now I know what was going on in Sweden.

[35:37] Jessica: Yeah. Print production for magazines and newspapers, Gone. You know what? I was once and definitely this doesn't exist anymore. I was a switchboard operator. Wow. Yes. For Crain's New York business.

[35:50] Meg: I think of Lily Tomlin.

[35:52] Jessica: That's exactly what it was. It was like, ring hello home, please. And another job that I had that again would be totally automated now. I was opening sweepstakes entries. Weird, right? So envelopes. Yes, I was. But I wasn't putting them in. I was taking it out.

[36:10] Meg: That's okay. That count says lot of paper cuts.

[36:12] Jessica: Sorry. Lot of paper.

[36:14] Meg: They're tools for that.

[36:15] Jessica: Yeah. They didn't supply themselves. They were like, rip it open. Gnaw it open with your teeth. Clearly, bodies were needed for all of this stuff. What else was happening in the 80s that temp agencies would be so useful? And the short answer is all of those Wall street companies, the banks, law firms, all of that kind of stuff. The 80s recession, Reaganomics, all of that was when the great experiment of changing the US workforce began. And words that had never been heard before are now being understood and heard. Words like downstaffing.

[37:01] Meg: Hmm.

[37:02] Jessica: Words like permanent temporaries, permatemp. Payrolling. You know, payrolling was.

[37:09] Meg: No, what's that?

[37:10] Jessica: Payrolling was when you have your staff, like you have a full time staff, and you say, you know what, we're not going to pay you anymore. We're going to now have your salaries run through a temp agency.

[37:24] Meg: Oh, so you don't get benefits.

[37:25] Jessica: Benefits. Right. Your job has now been made less valuable and your problems don't have to be dealt with by us. So hr, you know how like HR used to be somewhat for the worker. Yeah. No, because the temp agency could do it.

[37:44] Meg: Right.

[37:44] Jessica: Economic restructuring was making this happen, as I said, big corporate restructuring, layoffs and outsourcing. Another word that. That had not been really known before. Now outsourcing obviously is not temping, but it was. It was temping in another country.

[38:06] Meg: Okay.

[38:06] Jessica: So they would take an entire department and be like, hello, Bangalore.

[38:11] Meg: Yes, they were already doing that in the 80s. What about made in America?

[38:17] Jessica: Yeah, that was the beginning of the downfall of that. It was also flexibility. Because recession, you don't want to have a big staff. So you'd have a core group and then staff up for projects, which was a big thing. You could do legal temping. And I remember this when I was in law school, that you could get on a job to do discovery. So you'd just be the ass going through all of those papers and looking for a word again.

[38:46] Meg: You did that for me for a whole summer. I was a paralegal for a whole summer. And I just read through stuff with a highlighter and it was an asbestos case.

[38:56] Jessica: And you were probably told like, here are three phrases. And that was. You just looked for it. Now, could you imagine that? Now that thing's digitized and it takes three keystrokes to find everything that you spent all summer doing.

[39:09] Meg: Right. It's like that scene in Clueless when they're all at the dining room table.

[39:15] Jessica: Yes.

[39:15] Meg: And she messes it up. Cause she highlighted the wrong thing. And then one of the lawyers yells at her.

[39:21] Jessica: And then Paul Rudd comes to him, begins his career basically by being the cute boy. There's also the rise of permatemps. Now I have a permatemp story from Simon and Schuster. This is from 1991. We had a permatemp in the PR department at Simon and Schuster. His name will come to me in a second. Martin. His name was Martin. And Martin refused to conform in any way. Martin was an actor, and Martin would wear onesies that were not really. No, he didn't. I swear to God. With a big sweater over it, and he had glasses, and he was, like, very. He was a proto hipster. And so I don't mean a onesie, like, with feedy pajamas, but it was like some kind. Like, is it a jumpsuit? Is it a spandex leotard? Like, I'm not sure what I'm looking at. And he would get high in the loading dock. Huh? He would get loaded in the loading dock every day, and he would just sort of stroll around the office and be like, oh, you need help with that? I'll do that. He just made it. He blended in this bizarre way. And he never was reprimanded. In fact, he was smoking dope in the loading dock with another assistant, who, by the way, I later ran into when I was taking the bar exam in the Javits Center. I was like, luke, what are you doing here? But they would get high together in the loading dock and talk about different times. Okay, we talk a lot about feminism on this podcast. The PR department at Simon and Schuster was all women. All women except for Luke, who was this woman. Lisa's assistant. The PR executives who looked really grown up at the time. They were all, like, 36 years old. Like, every single one of them. And Lisa knew that Luke was really like. And he was coming to work drunk. Like, he was just a party boy who was really not taking anything seriously. And she could not bring herself to reprimand him because he was a boy.

[41:34] Meg: So wait, we had Martin and Luke, who are messing up?

[41:36] Jessica: Yes. But Martin is a temp, so there's no. Like, you just report him to the temp agency.

[41:41] Meg: Margaret is stoned and Luke is hungover.

[41:43] Jessica: Or stoned.

[41:44] Meg: Okay.

[41:45] Jessica: Depending on what time of day and when he got in.

[41:48] Meg: And you think she didn't fire him because.

[41:49] Jessica: Oh, no, no. She asked Martin to reprimand him. And I was like, even at the time. So I'm like, 21 years old. I'm like, this is kind of lame. Like, you need the stoned actor temp to reprimand the guy who he's getting loaded with in the dock. Like, what is even happening. So that's my permatemp story. That's the shining beacon of what happens when you let a slacker get embedded. That's really what it was. But the real thing and talking about Simon and Schuster, is that computers were finally on the rise. We were very disgruntled because we didn't have computers. We still had typewriters. There was one computer that was used for our mailing database. We would send galleys out and it was held. The computer had a black screen and green. Yeah, yeah. And the printer had the. It was a dot matrix printer that had the paper with the holes on the side that you had to peel it well for the perforations. Right. And it was held together with packing tape. Because Simon and Schuster, which was busy giving Kitty Kelly a red Mercedes convertible for her Ronald Reagan book, they wouldn't spring for a new printer for the publicity department. So that, you know, that was our world. But we were very disgruntled. Cause we were like, we need computers. Never happened. But do you know who did know about computers and knew that it was the thing to do? And again, back to temping. Temping. How can we make people valuable? How can we make more money? Well, they started training people on how to use computers for every task imaginable. And they were teaching them all of the software. The jokers like you and me, who are like, we have our bachelor's and we're just here to earn some money while we figure out what we're gonna do for grad school. Okay. We were the idiots. They were like, we are investing zero in you. But the people who were really serious. In 1946, Russell Kelly office Services in Detroit, Michigan was founded, which became Kelly Girls. Ah, yes. Which then became Kelly. Right. They were, you know, expanding, whatever. And in 1966, they started having men working. But their Next innovation was 1987. So it took almost 20. A little over 20 years. They developed their own PC Pro system to train them temp workers.

[44:27] Meg: Brilliant.

[44:27] Jessica: And to train them on every new software, CD rom, floppy disk that came out. That was really the future of temping and why you and I got the worst jobs always, because we did not

[44:42] Meg: know how to do that.

[44:44] Jessica: We weren't even, like, interested.

[44:47] Meg: I mean, Jo was like, you should probably learn how to do this. And I was like, the one thing

[44:53] Jessica: that Nightingale did that I was at the time like, what the fuck? Are you kidding me? Did you go to typing classes?

[45:01] Meg: You've talked about this on the podcast. No, I did not go to Typing classes. You did. And that's weird. What was I doing?

[45:08] Jessica: I have no idea. Because you were always far more serious than I was. But the weird thing was that by the time I got out of school, I could touch type. That's very cool.

[45:20] Meg: I'm jealous.

[45:21] Jessica: I'm still a very good touch typer.

[45:22] Meg: I feel like that's like sign language. It's just super cool.

[45:25] Jessica: It. It's. You know what it's like actually? It's like playing guitar. It's in your muscle memory completely. So either you have it or you don't. And there's that one moment where you suddenly recognize, oh, I'm doing it.

[45:40] Meg: Well, you know, the kids know how to do it.

[45:43] Jessica: Really?

[45:43] Meg: Yes, they do. They probably use the kids.

[45:46] Jessica: You mean your children?

[45:47] Meg: My children. And they probably don't do the same method that you learned.

[45:52] Jessica: I barely remember that there was a method.

[45:54] Meg: But they don't have to look. I know that much. And they think it's very strange because I use two fingers. Two tight.

[46:01] Jessica: Do you really? I sure do.

[46:02] Meg: Two. This one and this one.

[46:04] Jessica: Wow. I use all ten fingers. Whoa. It's astonishing, Right again. I know, right? So here's what would happen. When you went to get a temp job in the 80s or the early 90s, you had a walk in visit. Nothing was virtual. You had to walk in. Now let's go back to Dante. Okay. You had to go in and meet with whatever sleaze ball was there. And the people who ran these places were either super sleazy or super harried. Like they were just like, move on. Like, you did it. You didn't do it. Great. Next. Or they were super sleazy. Keep this in mind. Never lose the super sleazy tip. It's coming back. You had to bring a resume. You had to show in an interview based on the resume that a. You weren't lying. Ha ha ha ha ha. That's what they did. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. And that you could have a conversation with whoever your employer was. Interesting. They would, with whatever system they had, frequently Rolodexes. They would get you organized with whatever company was looking for your meager skill set. And then you would start the same day because that's how they worked. They got the jobs in and they had to fill them that day or for the next day. There was no, I'm starting in a week.

[47:33] Meg: Right.

[47:33] Jessica: Like, you showed up in office clothing because you were gonna go hit the streets immediately. Now we're coming back to our friend Dante, the Thing about temp agencies in the 80s was that they were the ultimate place to create a scam. They were scammers. So when. When Kelly was like, Dante was so sleazy. And I was like, did he, like, ask for sexual favors to get this, like, horrible typing job? And she's like, I don't know. I wouldn't doubt it. But he had the worst vibe. And I was like, huh. Well, I looked up, how are these places really making money? Well, all of these nasty little joints that were not like the Kelly Girl Company. There were seven scams.

[48:20] Meg: Oh, okay. And what. What's the scam?

[48:22] Jessica: The comeback tomorrow scam? There were certain agencies that did not make their money from placing someone. They made their money from processing people who were coming in. I don't know why, but it was simply numbers. Maybe it was to get data on people, like, I don't know. So they would get your data and then there was never a job, or they'd send you to a job and the job was already filled. So you never got anything from these companies. But after two or three tries, you'd be like, well, they're not doing anything. And that was it. But now you've been counted.

[48:59] Meg: Okay.

[49:00] Jessica: And that was how they're getting their money.

[49:01] Meg: Yeah.

[49:02] Jessica: There was the fashion industry ruse, where sexy jobs in fashion or. And this made me laugh out loud, publishing were what 21 year olds were looking for. And then they would send you to the publishing where publishing houses were like an address around there or in the fashion industry to stuff envelopes. Your dream job.

[49:25] Meg: Right.

[49:25] Jessica: Well. Or a telemarketing gig. Not good.

[49:29] Meg: So in that sense, it was just bait and switch.

[49:31] Jessica: Yes, absolutely. There was the modeling job, which was obviously straight to porn. Fame. There were. Yes, fame. There was the. Not fashion or publishing, but the Wall street scam, where you know you're gonna be a go, go 80s, you're gonna go to a Wall street company and you did. But they were the worst, most brutal jobs. You weren't allowed to make contact, eye contact with the people. You couldn't even have a coffee break. You were there to be a robot. And it was data entry or like literally checking boxes on something. And then like, no lunch break, you had to go. So people would burn out. Like, so they were just churning people in and out. When Kelly and I were talking towards the end of the day today, we were like, this is what Dante was. There was the agencies that vanished. You'd work a gig for a week because you got paid weekly. And then there wouldn't be any place to go get your money.

[50:31] Meg: Oh, they would move offices.

[50:32] Jessica: They would move offices. So they were getting.

[50:35] Meg: So they kept your money.

[50:36] Jessica: They kept your money.

[50:37] Meg: And the only way to contact them was to go to the actual office.

[50:42] Jessica: Right. And now you don't know, maybe a

[50:43] Meg: phone number, but it's easy to change your phone number.

[50:45] Jessica: Exactly. And a lot of these places, they didn't give you the address until you called. We had had a couple of conversations about it in the past where it was like, oh, my God. Like I told you that I had this amazing job where I actually was a personal shopper and I had to outfit this unbelievable job. Your dream job. It was my. I loved it so much. They put me in a car and I went shopping at, like, B. Altman all day. It was the best ever. But this was the reality, right?

[51:15] Meg: The dark side.

[51:15] Jessica: The dark side. And I never would have remembered it if Kelly hadn't said Dante.

[51:21] Meg: Dante. Well, our tie in kind of writes itself, am I right? Employment, yes. Yeah, yeah.

[51:39] Jessica: I got. I mean, no embellishment. Okay. I have nothing to add.

[51:43] Meg: Very exciting.

[51:44] Jessica: Employment. And how do you get a job?

[51:46] Meg: How do you get a job? Especially when you're starting at the very, very bottom, right?

[51:51] Jessica: And, you know, connections and personality on your side and grinding away in, you know, the garbage heap of endless temp agencies.

[52:05] Meg: Hitting the pavement in New York City.

[52:08] Jessica: Hitting the pavement, yes. And that was the other thing. Looking for signs in windows. Sad. We grew up so hard. Wasn't it hard? Yeah.

[52:19] Meg: Well, actually, it's interesting. Billy needs a job this summer, and it works very much the same way as it always did. He thought he was going to go on, like, you know, some sort of app or something like that. No, you actually have. He wants a job in the food industry, and you have to have a resume, and you have to walk in and you have to talk to everybody do, you know, and say, I want a job in the food industry. And they go, okay, I know a guy. You want to meet him? During my coffee break. There might be something in the kitchen. I mean, that's just it. Some things never change.

[52:56] Jessica: I still don't know why he wants to do that.

[52:58] Meg: Experience, I think, is great.

[53:00] Jessica: I'm not criticizing him. I just. It's the hardest job in the world

[53:04] Meg: and he will learn a lot from it.

[53:06] Jessica: Good for him.

[53:07] Meg: It.