[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I'm Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City. We. Where we still live and where we

[00:29] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines, and

[00:33] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:35] Meg: So in our last episode, we talked a lot about Penny whistle.

[00:41] Jessica: Penny whistle toy store.

[00:42] Meg: Penny whistle toy store on Madison between 92nd and 91st, which then became Blue Tree.

[00:50] Jessica: Indeed.

[00:51] Meg: And on my way here, I stopped by Blue Tree because I need to

[00:55] Jessica: get a graduation present for me. Oh, graduation present.

[01:00] Meg: Graduation present for Alice Jula, who is graduating from college in a couple of weeks.

[01:06] Jessica: Very exciting.

[01:09] Meg: And so I dip in because I had something in mind, because I've looked at it over the years, but I was like, I've never actually looked at the price.

[01:17] Jessica: So her.

[01:17] Meg: And as we know, sometimes things can be sticker, shock. Alarming. As it turns out. Totally reasonable.

[01:26] Jessica: Great.

[01:26] Meg: I was very excited.

[01:28] Jessica: Yay.

[01:28] Meg: And while I was in there, there was another person buying things in that store who was famous. Yes, very much so.

[01:36] Jessica: Oh, can we do 20 questions? Oh, wait. This is my favorite thing. Okay, wait.

[01:39] Meg: Okay.

[01:39] Jessica: Man or woman?

[01:40] Meg: Man.

[01:41] Jessica: Over 50?

[01:42] Meg: Yes.

[01:43] Jessica: Over 70. Kevin Klein.

[01:45] Meg: No.

[01:46] Jessica: Was it Kevin Klein?

[01:47] Meg: No one.

[01:47] Jessica: Well, I mean, he's husband of.

[01:49] Meg: No, that would not.

[01:50] Jessica: That'd be too easy.

[01:51] Meg: Okay.

[01:51] Jessica: Okay. Well, I don't know. Actor?

[01:54] Meg: Yes.

[01:55] Jessica: Currently in something.

[01:57] Meg: No.

[01:58] Jessica: Heartthrob?

[01:59] Meg: No.

[02:00] Jessica: Character actor?

[02:02] Meg: No.

[02:03] Jessica: Villain?

[02:04] Meg: No.

[02:06] Jessica: Hmm. TV or movies?

[02:09] Meg: Tv. Are we sure this is as interesting to our listeners?

[02:13] Jessica: No, definitely not. They're bored as hell. Who is it?

[02:17] Meg: I'll give you a hint.

[02:18] Jessica: Okay.

[02:19] Meg: On Walton's Mountain.

[02:21] Jessica: No.

[02:22] Meg: Richard Thomas.

[02:23] Jessica: No way.

[02:24] Meg: Yeah.

[02:25] Jessica: And you could still know who he was.

[02:27] Meg: Absolutely.

[02:28] Jessica: By the birthmark on his cheek.

[02:29] Meg: Didn't even need to see the birthmark. I walked in and I was like,

[02:32] Jessica: john Boy, John Boy.

[02:33] Meg: Good night, John Boy, John Boy. And he was looking at me, too. Like, he looked like he recognized me. And I couldn't catch his eye. Cause I was like, but you don't recognize me. I recognize you. So this is very awkward. So I was, like, avoiding eye contact.

[02:49] Jessica: Okay. How ballsy would it have been if you're like, richard, is that you? It's been ages.

[02:57] Meg: I actually know lots of things about him because he went to Allen Stevenson. So they always.

[03:03] Jessica: You're joking. John Boy from Walton Mountain went to. No. Yeah. Richard from Allen Stevenson.

[03:11] Meg: You're right. I totally could have pulled it out.

[03:13] Jessica: It's been ages Love it. You know, it really threw me off. But you were completely right. Not a character actor, not a villain, not a heartthrob. How many male actors.

[03:27] Meg: He was like an ingenue.

[03:29] Jessica: I can't stand it. But the ingenue type boys were frequently hunky.

[03:36] Meg: Like, Right, he was an ingenue, but he was also the narrator. So he was also ingenue slash leading man. It was interesting.

[03:43] Jessica: Right. But he was sexless.

[03:46] Meg: I don't even think he dated anyone. All of his brothers and sisters. A zillion brothers and sisters on that show dated people. I don't even know if John Boy dated anyone.

[03:55] Jessica: No, John Boy was the eunuch.

[03:57] Meg: I think he has a very eclectic theater career. But I think you're right, as far as tv, they put him in a. In a little box. A little unit box.

[04:11] Jessica: Unit box. Let's hit it. What do you got?

[04:24] Meg: All right. Well, it's also very fitting because of my story today. I'm doing something very unusual. I hope you enjoy it. I hope you stay on the train.

[04:38] Jessica: Okay. All right, let's see what happens.

[04:39] Meg: I don't even have. Oh, no, no. I am going to ask you an engagement question. Do you want to speak at all to C' est Moi? Oh. I mean, you've told the story about how you got fired from C' Est Moi, which is hysterical, but maybe just, like, give a little color about that store. What did it look like? What was the vibe of that store? Jessica and I both worked at our card store on Madison, across the street, frankly, from Penny Whistle, which is now Blue Tree on Madison. And, yeah, we worked there during our senior year.

[05:12] Jessica: Yeah. And it was our after school job. And then during the summer. I don't think you did the summer. I did the summer with Amy Gottlieb there.

[05:19] Meg: Okay.

[05:19] Jessica: Cause that was when I got fired. It was not just cards. It was all just.

[05:23] Meg: I remember when you got fired. So I was working there then, too.

[05:25] Jessica: Oh. Oh, okay. Anyway, yeah, it was gifts. It was a moment.

[05:29] Meg: Stuffed animals.

[05:30] Jessica: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[05:32] Meg: Like hearts on sticks.

[05:33] Jessica: Yeah, hearts on sticks. That's perfect. Well, and the logo was a heart that had C' est moi written across it.

[05:41] Meg: You had to straighten the cards. That's what your busy work was at Cino. I remember straightening the cards.

[05:46] Jessica: There was also a lot of chocolate there.

[05:49] Meg: Sure. Because you're going there to get a card for someone, so you should also probably get them a stuffed animal or a heart on a stick or some chocolate. It makes sense.

[05:56] Jessica: It was really a buffet. The Chocolate. I treated it as a buffet. It was definitely one of those Upper east side businesses that, like, someone. Like someone's wife had to keep her busy, which is why it wasn't such a big deal that she hired children to work there. There was one adult who I remember who worked there occasionally.

[06:21] Meg: I have no memory of an adult there ever.

[06:24] Jessica: But it was. But the thing is, you know what it was? It was incidentals.

[06:29] Meg: I don't know whether stores like that exist anymore. It'd be like a Hallmark store, except this was its own thing.

[06:35] Jessica: Right.

[06:35] Meg: So she ordered cards that, like, were Boynton cards Pointing.

[06:41] Jessica: Yeah. It was not Paper Source, where it's a chain. Yes, exactly. It was its own standalone.

[06:48] Meg: I do kind of remember the catalog that she would order the cards from.

[06:53] Jessica: Wow, that's a good memory.

[06:54] Meg: It looked kind of like a telephone book.

[06:57] Jessica: Yeah.

[06:58] Meg: Very flimsy paper. And you could sort of see what the card said.

[07:03] Jessica: Hope for the best, Right? I told the Paul Newman story.

[07:07] Meg: Yes.

[07:07] Jessica: So, yeah, that's what it was like that you were like, nothing's happening. Oh, look, Paul Newman came in.

[07:12] Meg: Right. And I. And Christie Brinkley came in when I was working there.

[07:16] Jessica: All right, there's no need to compete, Meg.

[07:18] Meg: Oh, my God. You're the one who said Paul Newman was more exciting than Christy Brinkley on a previous episode.

[07:24] Jessica: So isn't it good to know you

[07:25] Meg: are competing, my friend?

[07:27] Jessica: No, no. I think I'm very, very consistent in my downgrading of Christie. Okay, let's go.

[07:34] Meg: You even did a story about Christie Brinkley.

[07:36] Jessica: I know I did. I. I don't love her, but I'm in. I'm intrigued by her career. I think she did some good things.

[07:43] Meg: My sources are my memory.

[07:47] Jessica: Nice. That is very unusual.

[07:50] Meg: I know.

[07:51] Jessica: I love this.

[07:52] Meg: And again, this New York Times article that Alex Smith sent me. So this is kind of an extenuation of the story that I told last week about Pennywhistle.

[08:06] Jessica: Okay.

[08:08] Meg: On September 13, 1980, I woke up early because I needed to get a birthday present for Candace, a girl in my sixth grade class at Nightingale. Now, the birthday party was later that afternoon, so I needed to find something fast. My mother gave me $5, which wasn't a lot, but maybe I could find something cute on Madison. So I walked west on 92nd street past Table d', Hote, where I would go on to have my 16th and 30th birthday parties. I ducked into the toy store on the northeast corner, which would eventually become a Korean deli that would supply us with our score Bars before Glee Club, if you recall. I do, but in 1980, it was a dark and dusty little toy store that was the opposite of what Penny Whistle was half a block south. I once bought a hockey stick for Toby there. But as I learned, hockey sticks are for either right handers or left handers. And I got Toby a left handed one. So, oops, I didn't know. Oh, well, he didn't even play hockey. I was just like sports thing for

[09:27] Jessica: the cutest, like, little girl thing to do. That's very sweet.

[09:31] Meg: Now, Candace was about as preppy as they come. Her house was pink and green, and I think her mother collected little frogs. Chintz City and this toy store. They carried like slime and legos and slinkies, but nothing really screamed Candace. So I left and I headed north. I passed Sarah Beth's kitchen. I mean, their muffins.

[09:59] Jessica: Don't even get me started.

[10:00] Meg: I know we don't have time, and I certainly didn't have time then. Now I should have ducked into dollhouse antics.

[10:08] Jessica: Oh my God, I loved dollhouse antics. That was the best.

[10:13] Meg: They had those little mice dressed like princesses people and nuns and flamenco dancers.

[10:20] Jessica: Yes, yes. I had one in a French maid's outfit.

[10:25] Meg: I would kill to have those.

[10:26] Jessica: Those are the best.

[10:27] Meg: And I could have actually gotten her a happy birthday mouse with a tiny little cake. And I think that would have come to $5, but that wasn't including tax. And anyway, I didn't even think about it. I. I passed dollhouse antics without having that brilliant idea.

[10:44] Jessica: Missed opportunity.

[10:45] Meg: Totally. Now I also, obviously I should have gone into the corner bookstore. I had a kid's account there. Did you have a kid's account there?

[10:55] Jessica: No.

[10:55] Meg: The corner bookstore allowed parents to set up an account for their kids. Like, you know, if my mom, like gave them 25 bucks, I basically had an account. I could spend up to 25 bucks on books there. Brilliant, don't you think?

[11:11] Jessica: Very much so.

[11:11] Meg: And the parents could also put any kind of restrictions on it. Like, no Judy Blumes or what?

[11:16] Jessica: No Henry Miller? Not yet.

[11:19] Meg: I remember just hanging out in the corner bookstore like it was a library and going through the Encyclopedia Browns and going, you know, am I going to get one today or am I going to save my money? Because it wasn't like they were constantly putting money into my corner bookstore account. So is this the big expenditure and is this the book? So again, I had a kids account there. So I could have gone in and picked out a fun book for Candace and not worried about how much it cost. And yet I did not do that.

[11:54] Jessica: You did not do that.

[11:55] Meg: Because 12 year olds don't think about buying books for their friends for their birthdays. Instead, I crossed the street and walked down a couple of steps into Wicker Garden, which was really about as candice as it could be. Everything was so expensive there. But they had these beautiful pencils that were covered in fabric and illustrated with leaves, and each pencil had a different color leaf. And I thought they were magical. I mean, how could anything be more beautiful?

[12:36] Jessica: Do you remember having to sharpen those pencil?

[12:39] Meg: Yeah, that was.

[12:39] Jessica: That was a real pain in the ass.

[12:42] Meg: Like, lookers.

[12:43] Jessica: Yeah. You could only use the colors that was bolted to the teacher's desk that had the crank. You couldn't use, like a handheld.

[12:51] Meg: But you know what I mean, there's so.

[12:52] Jessica: Are you kidding me? I'm like. I'm like having a Proustian moment over your pencils.

[12:57] Meg: They were 50 cents each.

[13:00] Jessica: Oh, my God. Did you get her $5 worth of pencils?

[13:04] Meg: I was able to get nine pencils with sales tax. Okay, okay. Now that seemed like a small gift to give, but Wicker Garden, they did a wonderful job of wrapping them up. So that kind of felt like part of the gift, Right?

[13:20] Jessica: Sure.

[13:21] Meg: And it's so Candace. So Candace.

[13:26] Jessica: That is high prep.

[13:28] Meg: On my way home, I passed Feldman's, which to this day is the perfect place for cocktail napkins and stocking stuffers and stain removers and funky kitchen utensils. But none of those things were of any use to me in 1980, so I was not tempted to go.

[13:43] Jessica: You're like, just kidding, Candace. Need a fat skimmer? A sieve perhaps?

[13:49] Meg: I was definitely tempted to grab a toasted bagel and cream cheese. I know you think that's horrible, but you're wrong. We disagree about that at Double Duck,

[13:59] Jessica: which later became Le Ducanard.

[14:02] Meg: Oh, my God, I'm so glad you said that. So Double Duck at the time.

[14:06] Jessica: The Double Duck Deli.

[14:08] Meg: The Double Duck Deli at the time. What's there now? Like a juice press?

[14:14] Jessica: No, it was one in. I think Edit is there now.

[14:16] Meg: Okay. Edit. Which is interesting that it's not food service, but it was very skinny. And that's where we all went to go get our bagels. And it was called Double Duck. Right. Okay, so I'm passing Double Duck. I don't have any money left. I can't get my bagel and cream cheese toasted.

[14:33] Jessica: It's just a perversion to get hot toasted bagel and Then put cream cheese on it and let it just disintegrate and leak.

[14:43] Meg: Now, if I had kept heading south on the west side of Madison, I would have passed that restaurant we would eventually hang out at at senior year. Remember? Thank you. Oh, my God, I love you right now.

[14:59] Jessica: Okay.

[14:59] Meg: It was called Allen's, and we would smoke and drink coffee during our lunch hour. It was amazing. And when.

[15:05] Jessica: And do you remember that Rania used to put sweet and low on lemons and then suck the lemons?

[15:10] Meg: No, I don't. Yeah, that was like. That's good.

[15:13] Jessica: Was intense. But yes.

[15:15] Meg: Now, when my family first moved to Carnegie Hill in 1976, it was a flower shop.

[15:21] Jessica: Mm.

[15:22] Meg: And the Double Duck guys from the Double Duck Deli would end up opening Canard and Company. Isn't that what it was called?

[15:31] Jessica: Les de Canards. And then it became Les de Canard, and then it became Canard and Company.

[15:36] Meg: Okay.

[15:36] Jessica: By the way, why I know this is.

[15:39] Meg: I remembered Le Ducanard, too. And I asked Kathy, and she was like, I have zero memory of that.

[15:45] Jessica: No, no, no. I remember. I remember laughing my ass off the day that I was like, seriously? Like, that is a sign of gentrification if the Double Duck dumbass deli is now Le Ducana.

[16:00] Meg: And I asked my mother, and she also had zero memory. They both kept saying, yara, Yara. And I was like, before Yura? Before Yara.

[16:08] Jessica: No. If there's any. If there's any occasion where giant pretension has taken place, I will remember.

[16:15] Meg: Okay, coming back to that, I thought I had lost my mind, that those two women did not know, you know? Now it's either being torn down or gutted or becoming an apartment building or something right now, what? That whole hair?

[16:27] Jessica: That.

[16:27] Meg: Who cares? Yeah.

[16:29] Jessica: Wait, wait, wait. Between 92nd and 91st or 92nd and 93rd?

[16:33] Meg: 92nd and 91st on the west side. Yep.

[16:39] Jessica: They're taking all of that.

[16:40] Meg: They're either gutting it on the inside. They emptied it a long time ago. And if you walk by, there's tons of scaffolding. I don't know if they're taking it down or if they're gutting it.

[16:52] Jessica: You're 100% right.

[16:54] Meg: I am.

[16:55] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[16:57] Meg: All right.

[16:57] Jessica: Yeah, yeah.

[16:58] Meg: Now stick with me. All right. We're going back to the 80s, right? And that's a restaurant. It's before it's become Le de Canard or whatever. So we're passing that restaurant and.

[17:07] Jessica: Well, no, no, that's Allen's. On the.

[17:09] Meg: Allen's. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry, Allen's. We're passing Allen's. A couple doors down from there is C' est moi. This is pre. C' est moi. Okay, hold on. Cause remember, we're in.

[17:20] Jessica: You're on your little odyssey.

[17:21] Meg: In 1980, my absolute favorite store, Epstein's.

[17:28] Jessica: Oh, my God. I shoplifted binder paper from Epstein's that I. I remember this. It was a challenge. It was like a dare when I first got to school in eighth grade. And I think Margaret and Regina were like, we double dare you to shoplift. And I was like, oh, for fuck's sake. And so I took, like, some binder paper.

[17:49] Meg: Okay. Along with Venture and Blacker and Kubi Both in the 80s, Epstein's was the place for school supplies. Now, unlike those trendy stores, walking into Epstein's was like walking into a stationery store in 1956.

[18:06] Jessica: 110%.

[18:07] Meg: The erasers were pink rubber prisms. The notebooks were black and white speckled composition books. If you needed to refill your adding machine, this is where you would get the spool of paper. There were pads for rent receipts and pads for writing in shorthand.

[18:24] Jessica: Steno pads, yes.

[18:27] Meg: Epstein's. This is my memory. Was padding painted pale mint. Or maybe that was the fluorescent lighting.

[18:35] Jessica: Well, and the dust was from 1953 as well.

[18:37] Meg: There you go.

[18:38] Jessica: Yes, I recall.

[18:39] Meg: And just like the toy store on the opposite corner, it was always a little dusty. That was the next thing in my story.

[18:46] Jessica: Yeah, the dust, it was like. It was like they cultivated. Was like. Don't touch the dust.

[18:51] Meg: Can you believe we both remember the dust?

[18:54] Jessica: Yes, well, it was a feature.

[18:58] Meg: I loved that place. And when it closed, the space was split in half and the southern half would become C' est moi. Where you and I would sell greeting cards in 1987 and steal the chocolate. Yes. Now still 1980.

[19:15] Jessica: Okay, so there you are with your carefully wrapped pencils, walking south on Madison.

[19:21] Meg: Yeah, this is. If I did. I actually just turned left and went home. But if I had kept going, I'm saying I would have passed Epstein's. And like I was about to say, I didn't get as far as Jackson Hole, which I would eventually clock many an hour over their epic mushroom burger.

[19:41] Jessica: Okay, so let's just have a quick moment. The mushroom burger was astonishingly good, but made better by the addition of Swiss cheese. A mushroom Swiss burger. Don't even start. I mean, the thing about Jackson Hole.

[19:54] Meg: Sweet Theron. Yes.

[19:56] Jessica: Is that you came out of there, no matter what you ordered, stinking like Beef and onions and grease. And it wasn't like, oh, I was there and I'm gonna take a two minute walk and I'm aired out. Oh no, it got into your pores. It was like you needed a silkwood shower afterwards to get it off. And there was no way that you could be like, oh no, mom, I was at the library. No, you were a Jackson Hole. That's it. And wasn't Jackson Hole. You could smoke there too.

[20:30] Meg: Yes, you could smoke everywhere. We smoked at Allen's, we smoked at Jackson Hole. But I think at Jackson Hole they made you sit upstairs if you're gonna smoke. And the smoking section was upstairs.

[20:40] Jessica: And there's a joint around the corner also where we smoked clove cigarettes in the back on that same stretch of that block. So I'm just, I'm just adding to the tour.

[20:52] Meg: If I had kept going south, I would have passed the sweet sweet. Now I didn't really have a sweet tooth, but who doesn't love frozen yogurt? And P. S I love you.

[21:06] Jessica: Yeah, well, P. S I love you was what c' est moi wanted to be.

[21:09] Meg: P.S. i love you. What I would swoon over at P.S. i love you were the rainbow shoelaces and the white turtlenecks with tiny hearts or tiny frogs or tiny anchors and sparkle Suspense. And mugs with ceramic dogs on the bottom or frogs actually. So you would be drinking your hot cocoa and then you'd see a little nose of a. Of a frog or a dog poking out. Brilliant. Please bring these things back to the world. P.S. i love you was actually a tchotchke place, but high end tchotchke.

[21:44] Jessica: Well, if you need a 12 year old girl's dream, if you needed mork from orc suspenders, that was where you went for sure.

[21:52] Meg: I would die if I walked into that store.

[21:54] Jessica: Oh, you know what else you could buy there? I just remembered cause it was all the rainbow stuff. Rainbow knee socks that had toes.

[22:02] Meg: Yes.

[22:03] Jessica: Toe socks. Yes, yes.

[22:05] Meg: Oh, oh, I just thought of something too. Do you remember those? They were pads of paper in a cube. But they had twisted the cube.

[22:13] Jessica: Yes, I remember.

[22:14] Meg: So it was like in a spiral.

[22:15] Jessica: Yes, yes, yes I do.

[22:17] Meg: And big rubber pencils that were like. The pencils were actually, actually three feet long and they were rubber. Yeah.

[22:24] Jessica: Inspired by the store. Think big.

[22:27] Meg: Yes. We need to go back to this.

[22:29] Jessica: Well, start working on your time machine because I don't think this is a growth industry for anybody.

[22:34] Meg: Damn.

[22:35] Jessica: Well no, it is. You know where you can find this shit now? Etsy. Yeah, that's where.

[22:40] Meg: That's where you get a little less charming. But I hear you. I hear you.

[22:43] Jessica: And by the way, just talking about that turtleneck with the hearts, I've been trying to find one.

[22:49] Meg: I know, I know.

[22:49] Jessica: And I eventually did go to Etsy, and I was looking for any vintage, and I found one, and it was all, like, pilled and stretched out, and they were trying to sell it for some exorbitant amount. And I was like, no, no, somebody

[23:08] Meg: just needs to manufacture that again. They were sell.

[23:11] Jessica: Yeah, they were adorable.

[23:13] Meg: Anyway, I had. I had to get home. Right? I didn't do any of those things. I had to get home. I had to change for Candace's party. So I get back to my home on 92nd between park and Lexington. My mom is waiting in the kitchen. When I get back, she asks me what I found for Candace. And I told her nine beautiful pencils. And my mom was like, what pencils?

[23:44] Jessica: I have to say, that is not

[23:46] Meg: a good enough gift. And the party is in an hour, and my mom ran over to Madison to get a more acceptable gift. And I'm pretty sure she probably went to the corner book store, which is, of course, where I should have gone.

[23:59] Jessica: Yes.

[24:00] Meg: In the first place.

[24:01] Jessica: I have to tell you that as you were telling the story, like, when you just now got to the point of. And then I went home and I projected myself into that scenario, and I was thinking, Sandy would have lost her shit. It would have been like a dressing down of epic proportions.

[24:20] Meg: I was given this rather, you know, grown up task. I'm not gonna get a gift for your friend. You're old enough to go get the gift for yourself and to come back. It's like Jack and the Beanstalk with, like, nine pencils.

[24:35] Jessica: It's just, I failed that test. Well, and it's funny, because you are now the consummate gift giver. Like, no one gives better presents than you do. No, truly, like, you are exceptional. You're thoughtful. You really know the recipient. And that's the thing about this story that's so heartbreaking, is that you really were thinking about Candace. It was like embryo Meg, gift giver. You were really on the right track. If only you had had enough money. And I blame your mother for. If only you had had enough money to get a charming pencil case. Yes. To go with it.

[25:16] Meg: And the thing is, you have to know, Wicker Garden was really obnoxious. It was so overpriced. It was not the place I should.

[25:24] Jessica: Says the woman who now loves Blue Tree. Yeah. So I don't know. Many price points. Many price points of Blue Tree, sort of.

[25:36] Meg: Well, thank you for going on this little journey. You know what it was reminding me of while I was writing it was, you know, the segment on, I think it was the Electric Company when the kid goes to get the quart of

[25:48] Jessica: milk, loaf of bread, stick a butter.

[25:52] Meg: Exactly.

[25:52] Jessica: Yes, I know, exactly. Did that warm your heart? That.

[25:56] Meg: Yes.

[26:07] Jessica: My story is not as adorable as yours, but I found it very interesting. It stems from an article in the New York Times, but then I backtracked and did some other research. So I'm gonna start with some statistics. Did you know in the 1980s, like mid-80s, there was a baby boom? A little baby boom, A baby boom

[26:31] Meg: lit in New York, specifically America.

[26:34] Jessica: Where in America, but in. We're gonna even in New York. And some of the reasons why are actually were very prevalent in New York.

[26:42] Meg: Yeah, I guess I.

[26:43] Jessica: You did not know that? Well, one of the reasons is that professional women for the first time were putting off having kids.

[26:51] Meg: Okay.

[26:52] Jessica: And so there was this baby boom because generation of women that was a larger generation. They were people who had been coming up right after World War II. Those people were having kids and having them late.

[27:06] Meg: Okay.

[27:07] Jessica: And so that was a boost. So you've got all of these women who are 36 and older having kids. And remember I was talking about Lisa who wouldn't reprimand her own assistant on last week's episode. She was one of them. Every 36 year old woman at Simon and Schuster was having a baby.

[27:27] Meg: Interesting. That was the new cutoff.

[27:30] Jessica: That was it. It was like, there you go. So that was happening. It was also a time of more economic stability. After recession, things were getting a little more stable. So people were prone to have babies when that is the case.

[27:44] Meg: Right.

[27:45] Jessica: There was also a cultural shift in that while there were all of the women who were working, there was also a, if you'll excuse the expression, return to family values. So in the United States, not necessarily New York City, but there was a lot of family centric.

[28:02] Meg: Sure. Let's make yogurt Reagan home stuff.

[28:07] Jessica: I love that you just said let's make yogurt.

[28:10] Meg: Well, that's what my family was doing.

[28:12] Jessica: Are you serious? Yeah.

[28:13] Meg: We started making yogurt from scratch again.

[28:16] Jessica: The contrast between your mother and mine is so vivid. Vivid.

[28:22] Meg: I think that was. It actually started with my grandmother. I think that was like a Christmas thing that she did one year where she gave everybody yogurt machines.

[28:30] Jessica: Oh, interesting.

[28:33] Meg: Homemade yogurt tastes really good.

[28:35] Jessica: I'm sure it's a far sight better than whatever, Danny, you were eating at the time.

[28:40] Meg: For real.

[28:41] Jessica: And there was also, at the time, just talking about babies. It was when baby centric products started really coming to the forefront. So you've got a baby boomlet and then you've got baby centric products because you want to serve. Not only that there are more babies, but these are women who are working and have more disposable income to spend on their babies. So pretty carriage diaper bag. That's like, you know, a Mercedes Benz. The diaper bag has 19 zillion pockets. It's huge. It's also a briefcase, you know, I

[29:20] Meg: mean, I don't know if it was a status symbol in the 80s. It was certainly a status symbol in the 2000s when I was having children. Whatever diaper bag you were carrying said a lot about you.

[29:32] Jessica: God, that's grim. Yeah, that's really grim. I have nothing to say about that. That's just really fucking grim. People went a little baby crazy. That's also. Here's an example. In the mid-80s, during all of this, Cabbage Patch Kids came around.

[29:47] Meg: Yeah.

[29:48] Jessica: Disgusting. Disgusting. How could you have liked that?

[29:51] Meg: Obviously you didn't have one then.

[29:53] Jessica: I would never have wanted such a disgusting thing.

[29:55] Meg: I had one of the originals.

[29:57] Jessica: They were vile.

[29:58] Meg: They were not vile. Don't say that. They were one of a kind. Like it was before the Toys R Us thing. It was when they were made by little lady in a cabin store.

[30:09] Jessica: You were adopting them out of a cabbage patch? Yes.

[30:13] Meg: What's wrong with you?

[30:15] Jessica: Nothing. I'm the normal one here. I'm a child who wants a baby that I'm adopting out of a cabbage patch. And it looks bloated. It looks like it has encephalitis. It had these big fat heads. They were just horrible looking.

[30:33] Meg: They're very cute. I used real diapers on mine.

[30:35] Jessica: Of course you did. You're so precious.

[30:40] Meg: You know what I did that was really stupid.

[30:42] Jessica: I'm excited to hear.

[30:44] Meg: I brought it to camp.

[30:46] Jessica: Oh, God. Were you teased out of the bunk or was it just.

[30:50] Meg: It was really bad.

[30:51] Jessica: So you're saying that I'm the weirdo

[30:53] Meg: and in fact, no, I'm thinking you're a mean girl who didn't go to my camp. But you could have gone to my camp.

[30:59] Jessica: No, don't mean girl me. Don't mean shame me. You had a weirdo toy and I'm absolutely doubling down on freaky.

[31:10] Meg: Sorry. Now I'm on the nostalgia kick. I also brought one of these little monkeys that had velcro hands.

[31:18] Jessica: Oh, I liked those guys. Those were fun.

[31:20] Meg: The assholes in my bunk did is they stuck the monkey hand down the diaper of the cabbage Badge kid.

[31:32] Jessica: I was appalled. They were hilarious. They were horrible.

[31:38] Meg: They were mean.

[31:39] Jessica: But the fact that they knew that that would scandalize you is so funny. I'm sorry that they traumatized you. No one should be traumatized by their bunk mates. I was too, until I got to my big fruity theater camp.

[31:55] Meg: I didn't go to a fruity theater camp.

[31:57] Jessica: Well, I went to sports Sports camp for four years before I found theater sports camp.

[32:05] Meg: Anyway, Cabbage Patch Kids.

[32:06] Jessica: So baby centric. Cabbage Patch Kids and of course, movies like Baby Boom, which we've discussed on this podcast before.

[32:14] Meg: Brilliant.

[32:15] Jessica: Which of course reflects older mother, mid-30s, with baby. Oh, she had a cabbage patch kit. She. She adopted one out of the cabbage patch and fed an applesauce. It was perfect. So anyway, baby, baby, baby. I don't remember when. I think it was in the 90s that look who's talking and all of that came out, but that just came

[32:40] Meg: to mind that I feel like that's a 90s thing.

[32:43] Jessica: Those were so vulgar. Anyway, Bruce Willis, who was the baby,

[32:48] Meg: very 80s, but he was 80s TV.

[32:51] Jessica: Yes. Moonlighting. Loved Moonlighting.

[32:54] Meg: Oh, my God, it was so good. So good.

[32:57] Jessica: Would they or wouldn't they?

[32:58] Meg: Oh, we should watch it.

[33:00] Jessica: Yeah, let's watch it.

[33:02] Meg: Yeah, we could have a watching party.

[33:03] Jessica: Okay. That would be really fun. Yes.

[33:05] Meg: And then we can talk about the episode that we watch. Okay, good.

[33:08] Jessica: I'm all in on that, actually. That's like. That's an easy sell. So a quick digression. In the early aughts, friends of mine opened a bar in Brooklyn and then a couple more bars, but the original one was called Union Hall. It was Union hall or Floyd, I can't remember. Anyway, whichever the first one was, it was in Park Slope, home of every obnoxious double wide stroller mother, like, the worst. Yuck. It's a bar, okay? They would go in there with their strollers, block the entire entrance, drinking wine, and not move for patrons who wanted to come in. And so they ruined the business for a while. They were really cutting into the bottom line because they were so entitled. And my friend was like, could you please move your stuff? It wound up being a lawsuit. They tried to close my friend's bar down because he told them, no, you can't be here with strollers. No strollers. So the no stroller thing, he was like, it's my bar. You're blocking the entrance. People can't come in. You're ruining people's desire. No one wants to drink a beer while you've got junior doing whatever. Like it's obnoxious. Anyway, he prevailed, okay? So having that in my memory in 1988, May 28, a Saturday, in the New York Times, Carol Fialkov has written an article called no baby sections in restaurants. And I found this. And I was like, oh, oh, Carol, I'm all in. And what she had to say was so ahead of the curve. And I can only imagine that everything that I just said about the baby boomlet and the obsession over the accessories and the babies and the. This woman had had enough. Carol was done. Carol runs a PR business, so that's her byline. So Carol knew how to say what she wanted to say. And it made me laugh. So here's Carol's screed. Smoking, spitting and loud radio playing are offensive and properly prohibited in public spaces. But now that you can finally enjoy that quiet table in the corner and a smoke free atmosphere, you might instead find the environment polluted by an infant exercising, exercising his right to a tantrum. Babies are in. And babies are of course, cute. Occasionally they focus their itinerant gaze on you, maybe even smile, and you feel like you've just received a pre approved credit card. But trying to talk with a friend over dinner, you wonder, is it ever going to shut up? The parents ignore the commotion, setting an example for the rest of us. Sitting with soldier straight backs and chewing with determination, they exchange proud, shy smiles across the table. Is there no etiquette governing these circumstances in public places? Is there nothing one can say without sounding like an ogre? What year is this? 1988. And so she goes on and on and she says, like, oh, we have to grin and bear it. And she says, how about a no children section in restaurants?

[36:41] Meg: She mentioned no smoking. And that's why I got confused, because smoking was okay in restaurants. But at this point had they had a section section?

[36:49] Jessica: Yes, there were sections. The same way that on a plane, yeah, you can smoke in the back. Like that makes sense.

[36:54] Meg: We're not smelling at all in front of the plane.

[36:58] Jessica: Ambiance in a restaurant is to many people as important as the quality of the food. Agreed, she says, consider the following example. I'm at a lovely trattoria with a friend. The two empty chairs at our table are reserved for my friend's new client. And his wife, who I've never met. They arrive with a jumble of infant paraphernalia. Plastic coated sacks, pink quilted bags, a stroller and a baby. I inch my chair up against my friends to accommodate the young mother who is intent upon nestling her sleeping baby in the stroller between her chair and mine. The kid finally squawks so loud that it freaks out a waiter who drops an entire bottle of red wine on the floor. Quickly, the young mother gathers her progeny up into her arms, muttering, there's a bottle in here somewhere. Carol says, I've got nothing against kids, but now that smokers and non smokers can dine without inflicting their prerogatives on one another, can't we enact laws separating people who choose to dine out with their children from people who choose to without children? Carol, it hasn't happened yet, but I am with you and I would love to see that happen again. It's not not liking kids. It's while I'm eating, I don't want a toddler standing next to me staring at me like, fuck off. And I think that what was interesting to me about this article was that it's the, like, you know, I love finding. This is the first time I see this in print. Yeah, this is the first time that I am seeing or I saw this entitled parent syndrome discussed in an article of any kind. And we all know, and it's not about the kids, it's about the parents who are like, is either. Isn't my new accessory so fantastic? No, not my Birkin bag, The baby, or people who are just, if I'm here, you're just gonna deal with it. Entitlement, a total lack of awareness of the people around them or a lack of consideration or concern. And I'd really thought that that was like an early aughts thing that was made so apparent by this lawsuit that my friend was embroiled in because he was just like, no stroller. He didn't even say no babies. He said no strollers.

[39:24] Meg: No, that's fair.

[39:25] Jessica: You know, there's even that movie Sweet Alabama that maybe we're recent, where there's like a baby in a bar.

[39:32] Meg: Like, okay, I've got a couple of responses though. I mean, I absolutely brought my kids everywhere. But what was kind of cool about it in the aughts is that if it was a nice restaurant, Danny Meyer was like, five o', clock, come on in. We will make that child so comfortable they won't want to squawk and it was catering to the kid in a way that the kid was really happy. Now, if my child had been unhappy, I would have picked up said child and brought them outside.

[40:06] Jessica: Right, because you're not an entitled prick.

[40:08] Meg: I mean, I certainly was not going to let Alice or Billy. Not that they ever did, frankly.

[40:13] Jessica: Oh, I'm sure that they never made a sound. I'm sure they were.

[40:16] Meg: No, they were like, bring on the pasta with butter, Danny.

[40:21] Jessica: Well, you say five o'. Clock.

[40:22] Meg: For real?

[40:23] Jessica: Did he have a cutoff time for children in the restaurant? If you.

[40:27] Meg: That was my idea. If I go early, then I'm not taking space from anybody else.

[40:34] Jessica: And okay, again, it's not just about the baby in the restaurant. It's about the parent and how you are parenting the child and how you are handling your use of space in a public space.

[40:48] Meg: I will also say, to your point, I absolutely have recollections of myself bringing my children to places that were incredibly. I mean, I'm not even gonna say inappropriate now because I'm like, what was I supposed to do? You know, I was bringing them to the theater when I had meetings with people. And so I'm having a meeting while I'm nursing. I mean, which very well may have made people uncomfortable, but I'm sorry, that's what I'm just gonna do. And now looking back on it, I was like, yeah, maybe I didn't read the room always so clearly I was trying to juggle a lot of things and that was just how it was gonna have to happen one way or another. You know, look in your eye right now. Look, I've nursed in front of my grandfather. And he was like, that's not new.

[41:41] Jessica: It's. It's.

[41:42] Meg: I was just like, sorry, I. She's hungry.

[41:45] Jessica: I. Look, I. Because you are my darling, darling, darling sister friend. There's a large part of me that's like, anyone who looks at you sideways, I would kill them. The other side of me is the person who's looking at you sideways. And unfortunately, we also know, and particularly in the climate that we live in right now, anything where you're going to talk about women having. Having what is considered a natural activity curtailed, you know, your voice silenced anything like that. Like, I am. This is not my moment. This is not the hill. This is not the hill I'm gonna die on.

[42:28] Meg: Right?

[42:29] Jessica: But I do feel that for those on the receiving end, it can be a little intense. That's all. And as I've said many times as a non parent, I I don't know. And I could never know what your headspace was when you were there with a nursing infant and trying to still have your career. There's nothing I can say about that.

[42:54] Meg: Yeah. And I think, for the most part, I just think I blocked out whatever kind of feelings other people might have about it because I was just like, this is the. Actually, the only way this is going to work out. I mean, I pumped once during getting notes, and I don't know if you've

[43:12] Jessica: ever heard how I know how loud it is.

[43:14] Meg: Okay, so I'm. People are getting notes, and you hear. And I'm like, otherwise, I have to leave. Now, either I. Yeah, I'm pumping during notes or I'm leaving, which might seem entitled to people, but I'm like, I guess that's just gonna have to be what I'm concerned about.

[43:34] Jessica: Well, that's what I mean about the. You know, all of this is also a feminist issue because it's like, well, should you not work?

[43:43] Meg: Right. I guess I shouldn't have been in a play, and I shouldn't have been trying to do theater while I had small children, but I did it in a way.

[43:50] Jessica: Right. And the other side of this argument is, fuck you for saying that. So it's very complicated. What I'm really focusing on is that extra level of entitlement of we're gonna block the entrance to your bar with our strollers. And for this woman Carol, what about

[44:07] Meg: it's a fire safety issue.

[44:08] Jessica: Exactly. But this woman Carol's article really hit me because there are certain things, like, forget work. There are certain things that are luxuries, like dining out. And it is about atmosphere and what should be allowed to pierce that atmosphere and what should be tolerated. And this is one of my favorite, like, things to go on and on about, so I won't. But forget just babies. There are so many things that people do in restaurants that now make it. I'm like, do I really even want to go out? Oh, my God. I was just about to say people don't know how to behave. Okay. This is when you take me out. I am becoming my mother. There it is. It happened on the podcast. Help me. Okay, before we talk about the tie in. Tie in, I just want to acknowledge that I immediately went to I'm turning into my mother. And you were gonna say, you're turning into Fran Leibowitz, which I would've preferred, and I should have just kept my mouth shut. Look, I know that not every. She's not everyone's cup of tea. But if someone says, you're becoming Fran Leibowitz, I say thank you.

[45:34] Meg: Honest.

[45:35] Jessica: And I bow and back out of the room. Thank you. Yes.

[45:40] Meg: Very good company.

[45:41] Jessica: You can't beat Franley Bowis.

[45:43] Meg: So what is our tie in?

[45:44] Jessica: All right, so babies in bar. Babies in bars.

[45:48] Meg: 12 year old Meg.

[45:49] Jessica: Okay, I got it. I got it. It's tenuous, but I got it. So your mother gave a young person a task, putting her into an environment where maybe she just wasn't ready. No, that's what you just said, that you went out and got nine pencils.

[46:09] Meg: It was a wonderful gift.

[46:11] Jessica: It was an incomplete gift.

[46:13] Meg: You're siding with my mother.

[46:15] Jessica: I'm not siding with anybody. I'm just saying that the way you told the story and she also didn't give you enough money, which wasn't my fault. I'm not saying. I'm just saying you were a young person. Perhaps in a little.

[46:30] Meg: You know what it also reminds me of is the Phantom Tollbooth, where you're going on your journey, and it's gonna have some ups and downs and, you know, maybe you make some missteps, but you learn math.

[46:44] Jessica: This is not a big deal. You bought a gift and it had some freaking pencils. It's fine. You asked for a tie in. All I'm saying is that from my perspective, we have a young girl who's maybe a fish out of water a little bit. You said it's the first time that you went to buy a gift by yourself. I'm pretty sure it was, yeah. Okay, just go with me on this. So young person. Not entirely. Not entirely. You know, knowing what she's doing. And a baby in a restaurant, not knowing, screaming, oh, get over yourself. You know what? That's the. I rarely say that to you, but this is. This is. No, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna back down on this. You didn't do anything wrong. The baby's not doing anything wrong. It's the parent. And in both of these stories, I'm saying that the parent is wrong. So let's go from that angle, okay? These are two stories about parents who fucked up. Okay?

[47:48] Meg: My mother listens to this podcast.

[47:51] Jessica: She will forgive me. We always know that finding the tie in is difficult. Don't forget that I once said, the things they have in common are. It was the 80s in New York,

[48:08] Meg: By the way. This was a two episode day. We have recorded two episodes today, which

[48:14] Jessica: explains a lot of this. I think that might be the best tie in. We've ever done. The best outro. Keep it it.