[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:18] Jessica: And I'm Jessica. Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we

[00:27] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:31] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: Jessica has bangs.

[00:36] Jessica: Yes, I do.

[00:37] Meg: Which is why you have to straighten them. They look beautiful, by the way. But is there upkeep?

[00:42] Jessica: Not really. So do you want the whole exegesis on hair? I mean, I'm bringing you the opportunity to be like, how much do you want to know?

[00:52] Meg: We don't. We don't need to.

[00:54] Jessica: I feel, go long on this segment. As you know, know me very well. You probably know that every time I'm, like, I feel dowdy, I'm fat, I'm. Blah, blah, blah. But wait, I can always cut bangs. So I'm in my. My bangs era. And no, you know, our hair texture was the same in high school, and mine has changed because it is all underneath all of this expert dye job, white as a sheet, and that has changed the texture.

[01:30] Meg: Okay.

[01:30] Jessica: So I don't really have to, like, if I just comb them down, they're straight.

[01:35] Meg: All right. That is not me. It's very useful also when I had bangs, and I've tried them a couple times, and I just, please, God, don't let me do it again, because I tried to have them.

[01:47] Jessica: I'll show you my ID When I.

[01:51] Meg: It looks terrifying. I have curly bangs, and the look

[01:56] Jessica: in my eye is like I'm being held hostage by my pants. Terrible mistake. Somebody.

[02:03] Meg: I kept looking in the mirror going, like, maybe I look cute, and I'm just not used to them. And now I look back, I was like, they were never cute. It was never a good idea.

[02:13] Jessica: It was not the.

[02:14] Meg: It's just not for me.

[02:17] Jessica: But, you know, I think that you look lovely always with your hair as it is. Like, you have. Thank you. You have mastered the look for you, and that's.

[02:29] Meg: It ain't gonna change.

[02:31] Jessica: Why change it now? This is always a sign of, like, personal unrest and boredom when I do this to my hair. So that's. That's a frivolous thing to talk about. And our other frivolous thing is that you're wearing a sweatshirt today that I. I know that, like, twinning is not the cutest thing to do.

[02:51] Meg: This is a very you item, I have to say. It's more you than it is me. I'm trying to pull it off. It's Very you.

[02:59] Jessica: It's great. And you walked into my apartment and instantly I was like, I need your sweatshirt. Where you from? I want that. So for those of you listening at home, it is a perfect. Like, there's something about the way this sweatshirt is put together so that it looks like a 1950s gym sweatshirt. Like it. It couldn't be more classic and perfect. It is olive colored, and across it, in a slight semicircle, it says Upstate. And I. I love that. Cause I feel like that's like, you know, in Animal House, that John Belushi was wearing a T shirt that said college. So I feel like this is.

[03:43] Meg: Oh, it's a nod to.

[03:45] Jessica: Or not. It's just my association, but I love it. So who made this sweatshirt?

[03:50] Meg: I got this sweatshirt. I think I told you that I. In a state of. Oh, my God, if I don't get out of town, I'm going to blow up.

[04:00] Jessica: Yes, I've heard that more than once. So please reference the occasion as I knew it.

[04:05] Meg: I think this was in the fall before it was between shows, and I was like, I've got exactly four days, and I'm taking Joe and we're going to a thing that Instagram told me about auto camp. That was an Airstream camp in upstate New York.

[04:24] Jessica: I love that.

[04:25] Meg: And it's adorable. You stay in your little Airstream, but they also have, like, you can glamp and you can stay in a little tiny home, but we chose an Airstream, and they give you your own little fire pit, and you go to, like, camp. There's, like, a place where everybody goes to hang out at night. If you so choose. You can get a glass of wine and you can have dinner, or you can pick up kits and bring them back to your Airstream and then cook your own food over your own little fire pit.

[04:57] Jessica: Wow.

[04:57] Meg: It's really adorable.

[04:59] Jessica: I love this.

[05:00] Meg: And they're popping up all over the country. And there is one in New York. We had so much fun. And in their gift shop, they had this sweatshirt.

[05:09] Jessica: It's great. And you know how I feel about camping and the outdoors. Generally. Not. It's not my milieu, but just for the sweatshirt.

[05:21] Meg: Meg, I think you would enjoy auto camp.

[05:24] Jessica: I'm. Well, I'm in desperate, desperate Meg. Need of a getaway. I am in a level of need that is bordering on mental illness. I just need to get out of town. So you. I think you have given me the. The keys to the castle.

[05:45] Meg: Highly recommended.

[05:46] Jessica: Love it.

[05:57] Meg: You were an actress in high school.

[06:00] Jessica: I tread the boards in high school and college. And college and summer camp.

[06:06] Meg: Wonderful. Would you tell me about an audition experience that you recall?

[06:13] Jessica: Sure. Oh, this is a good high school one. I may have said this on this podcast before, so if I have, I have a backup story. So tell me. But we did the Crucible at Nightingale.

[06:25] Meg: Yes, we did.

[06:26] Jessica: And I really wanted the part of Giles Corey.

[06:31] Meg: Right. That went to Kelly Gillis.

[06:33] Jessica: Did it? Uh huh. Oh, okay. Well, that's very different than me. And I was very. I actually, I was a little insulted and just irritated because every time I said more weight, they would crack up. Whoever. The director, mister. What was his name? The little. Pat. Pat. Pat something.

[06:59] Meg: It'll come to me in a second.

[07:00] Jessica: Anyway, whoever was directing, it was like, it's too funny. Every time you say more Wade, it's like, more weight. Yeah, more weight. Referring to how you will die. Giles Corey is crushed to death with stones.

[07:16] Meg: Oh, okay. Okay.

[07:17] Jessica: And so he's at his. He's a witch. He's. He's desperate to just be. It's like, kill me already. So it's this horrible moment of just kill me. And apparently I was like, having a Larry David approach to this. And they were like, you're too funny. And I was like, that's not true. I'm tragic. Come on. So that was. That was. I don't think I cast in that role at all.

[07:40] Meg: You didn't get into the Crucible?

[07:42] Jessica: No, I don't think I did. It's crazy.

[07:43] Meg: I was Abigail, of course.

[07:48] Jessica: And I know that this brought you great joy, that in the. What was it? The mad woman of Shiloh? I was the deaf mute and I

[07:55] Meg: was the mad woman of Shia.

[07:56] Jessica: And I was signing off on the side of the stage like. Like, I'm. I'm relegated to mime. God damn it.

[08:06] Meg: That was such a crazy show for us to do.

[08:08] Jessica: It was really super weird. And Katie was in that.

[08:11] Meg: She was.

[08:11] Jessica: I don't remember what she did, but she was certainly prominent in there in some way. But. And then the other audition that I remember is at camp. Talk about boys being not nice. I wound up being the leading player in Pippin, which was traditionally played by a man. And I was. While auditioning, my friends, guys were heckling me from the back of the theater, screaming, it's not for you.

[08:46] Meg: And the fucking manosphere.

[08:49] Jessica: Yeah. I mean, 1985, it was real. These were teenage boys who felt very

[08:55] Meg: threatened, as we had discussed recently.

[08:57] Jessica: Indeed.

[08:59] Meg: Well, this is a different kind of

[09:00] Jessica: story whenever you say that. And then you have that look on your face. I'm like, someone's going to die in a gruesome and in fact might be cannibalistic way.

[09:11] Meg: No, no death today. I'm happy. Well, actually it depends on how you like death of your career defined.

[09:18] Jessica: I'm going to kill. I'm going to. I'm going to ruin you socially.

[09:21] Meg: This is a follow up because I was very intrigued by a story that you told and I wanted to know more and so I found out more. So we're diving deeper. This is a callback.

[09:37] Jessica: Nice.

[09:39] Meg: My sources are the best worst thing that ever happened, which is a documentary by Lonnie Price about Merrily We Roll Along. And I watched the most recent production of Merrily We Roll along, the Maria Friedman directed. You can see it on the television on the streaming service.

[10:01] Jessica: Neato. Cool.

[10:03] Meg: All right. In April 1981, an open call was posted for non equity actors aged 14 to 20 for a new musical by Stephen Sondheim to be directed by Hal Prince. The open call was held at the Minskoff rehearsal Studios at 1515 Broadway at 44th street from 11am to 5pm Stephen and Hal were already icons. They'd both worked on west side Story when they were in their twenties. Stephen wrote the lyrics and Hal produced. Then they both grew in their careers independently. Stephen writing music in addition to lyrics and Hal started directing. And when they began collaborating, the work was groundbreaking. We're talking about company follies, a little night Music, Sweeney Todd and Merrily We Roll along was their new creation. Their musical was based on a play by Kaufman and Hart. The story was about three jaded middle aged friends who, while financially successful, had lost their youthful optimism and the reason they wanted to make art in the first place. The play starts there, then it goes back in time five or so years at a time to reveal how this all came to be. How did they get jaded? Where'd they start? How did it get there? Hal and Steven, both in their 50s when they created Merrily We Roll along, they were both artistically and commercially successful and they had not lost their idealism, unlike these characters. Right. In fact, they wanted to explore and showcase that beautiful moment when you have your whole life before you and you know that anything is possible. Do you remember that moment?

[12:02] Jessica: I was too anxious to ever have that moment.

[12:04] Meg: So who better to tell this story than kids who were experiencing it at that very moment? Thus was born the concept of casting young people who would play themselves as middle aged and then gradually age backwards until the last scene when they are youthful and still full of hope. To the kids who lined up for this open call audition for Merrily We Roll along, these men were legends. The line started forming at dawn. They cut off the list at 800. Number 800, and one was told to go home. The auditions were run by Joanna Merlyn, who you might know as the dance teacher in Fame.

[12:50] Jessica: Oh. Who says to Debbie Allen about leroy, what's that? And she goes, wicked nice.

[13:00] Meg: Well, she was also a casting director.

[13:03] Jessica: Amazing.

[13:04] Meg: Each auditioner sang 16 bars of a show tune. The ones who impressed were asked to learn choreography, and those who survived the dance call moved on to reading scenes from the fresh new script. The last day of auditions was a marathon. There was a panel of a dozen intimidating, powerful people all seated behind folding tables. And remember, these are kids. This is probably the first professional audition of their lives, and they are singing and dancing and acting for Hal Prince and Stephen Sondheim. Joanna brought the actors in in different groups of four, and the panel watched for chemistry. Ruthie Mitchell was the angel of death. When she entered the holding room, she was there to release people. When she called your name, you knew you were out of consideration. Thank you. That's all for now. They'd whittled the group down to 50. It was 8pm they had all been there since 8am Joanna Merlyn came into holding and called out 30 people to come with her into the studio and stand in a line. And Hal Prince comes forward and announces, congratulations, Hall. This is the cast of Merrily We Roll Along.

[14:27] Jessica: I just got chills.

[14:28] Meg: And the group of kids, who ranged from 16 to 25, exploded with joy. They lost their minds. Can you imagine? It was like one of those Hollywood movies about Broadway shows. David Shine, one of the cast said, quote, I had this sense I could do anything. I own the world. I remember feeling like I could go into any bank and they'd give me a loan because I was doing the next Sondheim Prince show. Now, it's important to note that this process was atypical in so many ways, and by design, professional children exist. But Hal and Steven weren't interested in scouting the Matthew Brodericks and the Cynthia Nixons and the Andrea McArdles out there, who were already polished performers with resumes and representation. They wanted to capture that spirit before cynicism hits and probably figured that child actors, having been through the wringer, were not the ideal vessels for that esprit. As Hal Prince said, quote, the beginnings of the cast's artistry, the roughness of their craft, their Inexperience. I was charmed as hell by that.

[15:46] Jessica: That's very sweet, except it didn't work out so well.

[15:50] Meg: I'm going to read the lyrics for one of the songs in the show. These are Stephen Sondheim's lyrics. Something is stirring Shifting ground It's just begun Edges are blurring all around and yesterday is done Feel the flow Hear what's happening we're what's happening don't you know we're the movers and we're the shapers we're the names in tomorrow's papers up to us, man to show em it's our time Breathe it in Worlds to change and worlds to win Our turn Coming through Me and you, man Me and you It's a lot of youthful exuberance. People say, write what you know. And there is no doubt that Stephen and Hal intimately knew this subject matter and felt passionately about it. But somewhere along the way, they lost perspective on what they were creating. They cast it in April, and previews were slated for October, and they had to finish the show. They hadn't written everything, Steven hadn't written everything, and the book wasn't finished. Steven wanted the songs of the character's youth to be simple. That was his word, like the work he had made at that age. And he struggled to unknow what he'd learned and developed over the past few decades. It was actually difficult for him to.

[17:18] Jessica: That's so hard to go backwards like that.

[17:22] Meg: Rehearsals began in September. Now, come on, September. What does September mean to you? Jessica?

[17:31] Jessica: Back to school. Yes.

[17:33] Meg: The fall in New York.

[17:36] Jessica: Well, it's the best ever. That is. It's like springtime in Paris, Fall in

[17:42] Meg: New York, and New York is reminding you it is the city where anything can happen. It's in the air. Ah, the potential. Steven told young Jason Alexander he was writing a song for him and asked if there was anything he should know about his voice. And Jason admitted he had a hard time with Chromatics. His ear just wasn't great. And then Stephen wrote a song for him that was all Chromatics and told him, quote, it's time to learn that bastard. No, it was like he wrote a song for me that would make me grow as a performer. He trusted me. He guided me through it. I was saying no to myself. And he, Stephen Sondheim, said, no, you need to say yes to yourself. I mean, it's incredible, right?

[18:37] Jessica: Yes.

[18:38] Meg: Yes. Hal said of that time that he had never been happier in a rehearsal, never happier rehearsing. Actors never More sure of a hit. Now, on a personal note, this is me, Meg, talking about myself. Okay? There's a moment that happens in every rehearsal period where I think I can't do it. Everything I'm doing sucks and I don't know how to make it work. It's horrible. It's a really desperate feeling. But I also know having been around the friggin block a few times, that is the only way I'll break through to something sublime. So now at this age, I identify. I feel that feeling, I feel that horrible, desperate feeling. But I also identify it when it happens. And I go, it's necessary that I go through this. It's necessary that I feel this desperate. I don't know what the other side is. And I have to go through this to get to the other side. If it's all smooth sailing, then I know I'm in trouble.

[19:48] Jessica: You have to go through the crucible callback. And to your point earlier about being a young person in the arts, you now knowing that you're not gonna die, what proof that you've crossed over, right, to being a professional. A true dyed in the wool. You know what time it is. What was it like for you when you first had that experience of oh my God, I'm in rehearsal and I'm gonna go down?

[20:20] Meg: Well, it took a few years for me to even recognize the pattern. I would just know like, oh my God, rehearsal is going horrible. And then at one point I was like, wait a second, I often feel this way. That's how I have a revelation that I never would have had if it had been comfortable and easy. And so it took me quite a while to even recognize that, you know, that moment of misery first of all happened pretty frequently, but also that it was something that I should be grateful for rather than despair in.

[20:58] Jessica: I have had a similar epiphany, I would say, in the last several years, not, not many of actually believing I will finish a book. And that, that desperate feeling of I'm going to miss the deadline, this is not going to go to the printer, everything is in the toilet. I have failed horribly and fill in the laundry list of other things about why I suck and that this didn't happen. So that moment of like, oh, this is a pattern and I always finish it, in your case, always break through. That is like one of the great rewards of being a grownup, I think, is that you can be like, oh wait, I'm not gonna die.

[21:41] Meg: Oh yeah.

[21:42] Jessica: Cause I've done this so many times before. Exactly. Like this.

[21:46] Meg: Yeah. And you know, and people have stage fright for a bunch of reasons. One very common one is that you'll go up on your lines. And to just know that even when you do go up on your lines, I'm like, the world hasn't ended. Like, I have in fact gone up on my lines. That means forgetting your lines on stage. And the world, in fact, has not ended. Either I fill in something that keeps it going, or one of my teammates, fellow cast members, figures out a way to make it keep going. The fact that. And that's something huge about trusting the people you're on stage with. And just knowing that means that you're. It doesn't get rid of the anxiety or the fear, but having that knowledge is, is. Is it's a good little thing to hang onto. Knowing that. Knowing that in fact, the end of the world will not occur if the worst case scenario happens.

[22:43] Jessica: Indeed.

[22:44] Meg: All right. Now, Hal and Steven, by contrast, were not feeling anxiety at all during this process. They were riding high. Now, there were a few bumps, but they adjusted. Hal thought the original adult costumes swallowed the kids. That was the original idea, that they'd all be dressed as middle aged people. But what I picture, you know, with these kids in, you know, suits is kind of like a middle school production of Death of the Salesman.

[23:14] Jessica: Yes. Oh, my God, what a perfect picture. Yes.

[23:17] Meg: And he, I think, probably saw a little bit of that too. And so he decided that instead of they would go high concept, the set would be school bleachers and they would wear sweatshirts with their rolls printed on them. Producer, best pal, gossip columnist.

[23:37] Jessica: Hmm.

[23:38] Meg: This was another bump in the road when the audience started walking out during previews, completely confused by what they were watching. Hal and Steven knew they had to tweak quite a few things. And they did during the month of previews. I mean, people talk about those 16 shows. They had 44 previews before they opened and had 16 shows. And during those 44 previews, massive changes were made every night, including replacing one of the lead actors.

[24:14] Jessica: Oh, no.

[24:16] Meg: Heartbreaking. He couldn't dance. But it still wasn't enough time and opportunity to find the show. They just couldn't find it. Now, again, this is how this was atypical. Most Broadway shows are workshopped for years. Many are developed and tested out of town. Some are brought up from Off Broadway productions after they've proven themselves on smaller stages. A Sondheim Prince collaboration was assumed to be gold before it was even created. So no tryouts. And as you talked about in our March 3 episode, Class act and roll with it again. Merrily We Roll along just had a beautifully produced run starring Jonathan Groff, directed by Maria Friedman. The show is there. It is in there.

[25:13] Jessica: The current, most recent version of the show.

[25:15] Meg: No, I'm talking about, like, the show as being the music and the book. It's in the show is in the stuff. You just have to find it. You have to find it, and clearly Maria Friedman found it. Right. And in answer to your question, which you posed, why? How. What's the difference? I pose after watching this documentary and watching the actual Jonathan Groff starring show. Oh, that's what you can see streamed.

[25:50] Jessica: Really? Yes. How fabulous.

[25:52] Meg: Yes. It needed perspective and time to be found. Hal and Steven's original impetus for the show was that young people have a lot to teach older people, that older people should listen to their younger selves. And that just ended up being a much harder story to tell than they thought.

[26:13] Jessica: Well, trying to build a story, now that you're saying it this way, build the story around a pretty nebulous concept when you're the ones who are creating it. Like, that's. That's like trying to embody a feeling for a show rather than here's the story. Do you see what I'm saying?

[26:32] Meg: Yeah, I do. I. I also. I just think it's so interesting that they were in their 50s, trying to maybe recapture something. There's something about it as, you know, being in the vortex of it themselves, maybe that gave them a lack of perspective.

[26:50] Jessica: A hundred percent. I completely agree.

[26:52] Meg: And the kids couldn't be expected to have any perspective on it because they were truly fresh off the turnip truck, and by design, they wanted people who were raw.

[27:09] Jessica: Mm. What I find really interesting is what you were saying about people assumed it's a Sondheim Prince production, so it's gold. Like, we don't even have to look in on it. Like, it's just gonna be great. And when you were describing just now, like, they were in the vortex trying to explain something that they were emotionally reckoning with, and then trying to impose that on kids who didn't have the experience to bring interpretation to the table. Like, it's just. It's like. It's like writing a novel. No matter how experienced you are, without a great editor, like, you need oversight. There needs to be another set of eyes. And in this case, the way you're describing it, who knows if, you know, the producers had approached it differently or if they had had to go into regional. A regional tour or whatever, but you need input. And to be in that position where you don't need input, you're perfect. Seems to me to just be like set up for potential disaster.

[28:22] Meg: And it was, it was kind of a perfect storm really. If any one of these things had gone differently. I mean, the lack of tryouts is pretty huge.

[28:36] Jessica: That's, it's, it's very perplexing and on the part of the producers. I don't know about the creators, but there's a certain amount of hubris with we're just going to rake in the money and we don't have to do any of the extra work. MPs expense of.

[28:53] Meg: And because it was a Sondheim Prince production, everybody had their eyes on it. So the expectation was that it was going to be something that was groundbreaking like everything else had been. And that's a level of scrutiny that it couldn't withstand. I highly recommend this wonderful, wonderful documentary. You'll love some of the people that they inter. They interview Frank Rich.

[29:24] Jessica: Oh my God.

[29:25] Meg: Who by the way was extremely young when he wrote that review. One of the actresses, I knew you'd love this because they talk to a lot of the original cast. Obviously they're all like, you know, bright eyed and bushy tailed at that age and just cannot believe this is happening to them.

[29:42] Jessica: This isn't real. Because they have footage from back then.

[29:46] Meg: Yes.

[29:46] Jessica: Oh, wow.

[29:47] Meg: They were making a documentary because it was gonna be a groundbreaking show. And so Lonnie Price, who was in the production, he then went back and found, he remembered that there were cameras around all the time. And so he went back and found the footage and that that's very prominent in the documentary. But then he also interviews the now adults about that time and that feeling that they had. Then he asks them, what made you want to become an actor? What made you want to come to New York City and give it a shot? And one of the women says, I saw Pirates of Penzance and I wanted to fuck Kevin Klein and I was going to do anything it took. And that's quite a motivator.

[30:36] Jessica: I'm so on the floor that you said that because she was like, you know, I love, I love her.

[30:43] Meg: 19 years old and she's like, I have a goal.

[30:46] Jessica: And by the way, I was 10 and I felt that way. So I absolutely could imagine. But so it's funny that you would bring that up because I got mgm, I subscribe for the streaming so that I could watch Kevin Klein's new series, American Classic. That's the name and He's a theater person. And so because he's a theater guy, they have as part of the set his actual old posters. I mean, he's such a good looking man that even now, quite old, he looks amazing. And I was like, no, he doesn't look the same. And so I went online as I was watching the show and I was like, holy shit, he was magnificent. He was ridiculous.

[31:40] Meg: The full package of package.

[31:45] Jessica: Yes, he was. And I think that that woman was the greatest interview probably on that whole documentary to say such a thing.

[31:54] Meg: There are so many great, great interviews, so highly recommended. And also I'm so glad that you talked about it because I didn't really know much about all of it. And the history of this show, I think, just speaks volumes about theater in New York and dreams and youth and aspirations, but also perspective and how important it is to have perspective. And I wouldn't want to relive those days. I'm very happy to be where I am at this point in my life. But also being able to tap into that moment, just being able to think about what that felt like again. It's a wonderful, wonderful little feeling, having so much promise.

[32:41] Jessica: Yeah, I had flashes of that. But I was so. I wasn't kidding before when I said I was so anxious about, like making the next step properly, whatever, pro. Like, I was not swinging from the rafters until I hit 30, but all through my 20s, I was just like, oh, my God, I have to make the right choice. I have to make the right choice. And I didn't really have that. That spark that you're talking about. And that happened when I actually realized that because of where I had gotten in my career, that I could write a book and get it published by a major publisher just on my own. Just be like, hi, I written this. Could you publish it? That to me was like, oh, my God, this is the reason I'm sharing that is because that can happen. I think that spark can happen at any point.

[33:36] Meg: I agree.

[33:36] Jessica: In your life. And I think that people who are fine artists who discover their artistic abilities later in life, painters, stuff like that, that. There's something to me particularly poignant and inspiring about being able to find that spark when there is every reason not to. Like, life has had its way with you.

[34:02] Meg: Spark it up.

[34:03] Jessica: I love that this original, the thing that I did sparked you to do a deeper dive. I love that interplay. I don't think we've done a lot of that before, but very interesting. I like it. It's a new way to Have a conversation about our stuff. Well done. Are you on a list? Lot of text threads or like, WhatsApp groups?

[34:37] Meg: Group chats.

[34:38] Jessica: Yeah, group chats.

[34:40] Meg: Yes, many.

[34:42] Jessica: They're a little overwhelming, aren't they?

[34:44] Meg: Yeah. And you can't leave without it announcing that you're leaving. Yes. So the thing, once you're in it, you're like, just suck it up. Just suck it up.

[34:54] Jessica: I learned how to turn off the notifications so that I didn't have to leave. But then I got really agitated when I would see the count of unread texts coming up. And I'm like, 400. Who are these people? Why are they texting? So, okay, so I am on a group text for my Fleming School friends. It is the same core.

[35:20] Meg: How many people are on this group?

[35:21] Jessica: Well, I was going to say there. It's the same core group that engages, but I think there are, like, 20 people on.

[35:28] Meg: That's way too many people to be on a group chat.

[35:31] Jessica: Well, most people are skulkers. I'm usually a skulker.

[35:34] Meg: Okay.

[35:35] Jessica: But nonetheless, and. But it's relentless. Nina and I were like, how do we get out of this? And then we were like, no, no, we have to stay. Because every now and then, something comes up. Ooh, Right. So we were talking about it. I think it was Nina. And we were like, why on earth is this something that is still happening? This Fleming. And the same stories are being told over and over again.

[36:02] Meg: Like, they forgot they told them.

[36:03] Jessica: I don't know. It's almost like a fetishization of.

[36:07] Meg: Is David Levine on it?

[36:08] Jessica: No, he is not on it.

[36:10] Meg: Okay.

[36:10] Jessica: I think it's just my class. I think David was a year younger anyway.

[36:14] Meg: You're right. He is younger.

[36:15] Jessica: Yeah. And so it really became overwhelming to me. And I was like, why? Like, I love nostalgia as much as the next person. And I am part of this podcast, which I think proves that. It was just, like, why this almost fetishistic thing, you know, I had the obvious recognition that, like, when you're nostalgic, it's for an easier time, you know? Like, it's when things were so pure and simple, not unlike what you were just talking about with tapping into what these really young people with no experience could bring to this show, to Merrily We Roll along that, you know, I think that people are always searching for that. It's almost like it's clean. It's so pure that you just don't. You're not encumbered. Like, you might feel encumbered.

[37:05] Meg: You don't have baggage yet.

[37:07] Jessica: Exactly.

[37:08] Meg: Baggage comes with time.

[37:10] Jessica: You might have worries, but you don't have baggage. Okay. I was like, all right. And then my friend Dan from Fleming, having nothing to do with the. The chat, he texted me. I've been watching this. Sends me a clip. It's been making me feel more secure in these troubled times. And I was like, all right, I'll bite.

[37:35] Meg: Sure.

[37:35] Jessica: I click on the link and I'm shot off to YouTube. And it is like a one hour video that's been put together of all of the ads from New York in the early 80s. All of these ads that you would recognize. And some of them are like, you know, for a local car.

[37:58] Meg: Washford Plaza.

[38:00] Jessica: Yeah, all of that kind of stuff. I loved that he said it so simply that it made him feel safe while I was watching these ads.

[38:10] Meg: Cookie puss. Sorry. Oh, my God, I've got to stop.

[38:13] Jessica: How about. No. How about Fudgy the Whale for a whale of a dad? There you go. It's for Father's Day. It's Fudgy the Whale for a whale of a dad. This is Tom Carvell, right? Yes. In this, a couple of ads came up, and I was instantly sucked back into the vortex of. I laughed, I cried. It was just like life. Better than cats, better than E.T. so I was thinking about this. Cause there was like a milsage of it.

[38:42] Meg: I'll see it again and again and again.

[38:44] Jessica: So I went right back into the same search that we've talked about in the past. I was like, I'm gonna crack the code. I'm gonna figure out what it is. Because the actual line that everyone repeats, we talked about this last time is from Saturday Night live. It's their 1986 parody of the commercial. Of the commercial. And so I was like, wait a minute. The parody is that there was a pretty longstanding way of doing ads for Broadway shows and off Broadway shows where they would interview people when they came out of the theater. And the people, because it was New York in the early 80s, they were real people, you know, and there were characters and types. And so they were. They were nutty. And they frequently had great New York accents.

[39:34] Meg: True.

[39:35] Jessica: And you had people who were clearly, like, coming in from New Jersey and Long island, like, this was their big night out. But it occurred to me that the Saturday Night Live thing that we all quote thinking it's the real thing, is inspired by a multitude of ads.

[39:50] Meg: Okay.

[39:50] Jessica: One of them that has been stuck in my head for a very long time. And I was Convinced I knew what show it was from. And by the way, I'm calling my segment the Broadway Mandela Effect. Ah. So I was convinced I knew what it was. The ad was actually some film video of the play happening. Like they're filming the play.

[40:18] Meg: Okay.

[40:19] Jessica: But it was clearly like, a rehearsal or something, because they were, like, getting really close up into people's faces and whatever. And there's this one woman, she's offered dinner, and she goes, oh, I'm not gonna eat. I'm just gonna pick. And you see her eating everyone off their plates.

[40:34] Meg: Okay. This is a scene in the play.

[40:36] Jessica: Yes. And I had that in my head. I was 1000% sure that that was from Tony and Tina's Wedding.

[40:42] Meg: All right.

[40:42] Jessica: Do you remember Tony and Tina's wedding?

[40:44] Meg: I do. Was that in the 80s? I think that was in the 90s.

[40:47] Jessica: Yes. No, it was in the 80s, huh. And I'm gonna tell you about that in just a moment.

[40:51] Meg: Okay.

[40:51] Jessica: But there was so much with Tony and Tina's Wedding, which was, I believe, at least in my experience and memory, one of the first immersive theater offerings in New York City.

[41:04] Meg: I think that's fair.

[41:05] Jessica: So for those who don't know it, Tony and Tina's Wedding, the tickets for the play would take you first to a church, and you would see Tony and Tina and their big Italian families who were chaotic and insane. They're all there, and you are invited as a guest to the wedding. And so you see them get married. Everyone goes to a catering hall, and you have dinner, and the play happens around you. A line that Nick and I have laughed about for decades that came out of that is, the maid of honor is making out with Tony at one point, and Tina says, you are not my maid of honor. You are my maid of trash. And so there is no doubt in my mind that the I'm just gonna pick woman was from that.

[41:52] Meg: Totally wrong. All right.

[41:55] Jessica: Okay. Here's a little research that I've done that I think is going to get us a lot more up to date on what actually was said for these ads and to replace the. Or at least to make it clear that the SNL thing was not real.

[42:12] Meg: Okay, and again, tell us what the SNL parody was.

[42:15] Jessica: The parody was people coming out of a theater being interviewed and saying this line, among other lines. But the line was, you know, I laughed, I cried. It was just like life. Better than cats, better than E.T. i'd see it again and again.

[42:28] Meg: Okay.

[42:29] Jessica: But it was so even more like, more over the top. And it just kept going, you know, like every weirdo character you could imagine coming out of the theater. I'm watching what Dan sent me, and what comes up is the first ad, and it is a woman who talks like this. And she says, oh, my God, Grand Hotel. It's amazing. Sid Charisse, she's incredible. I loved it. I loved it. My husband brought me. I've been here before. I've seen it before, but my husband brought me. He had to see it. I loved it. And the person who's interviewing her is laughing and is like, I take it you loved it. I loved it. Sid Charisse is magical. So that's the first. That's where we opened. And I was like, okay, for Grand Hotel, clearly the Grand Hotel woman, it was 1982 or something. So she looks like she's 70. She could have been 25. Like with the stylings of the time. I don't know if you've seen this, but there are these hilarious things on Instagram. I forgot who's been posting them. You know, something like, you know, why are Gen Xers the way they are? And one of them is like, we're all very worried. You know, we've all been adults for way too long. And then it's a long series of photographs from the time of all of these 15 year old girls with haircuts that make them look like 70 year old real estate agents. Like, the hair is so aging that it's incredible. Like the perms, you know, the asymmetrical boof. Like it's all, you know, like the blown out bangs and then from the top of the head blown backwards to a bouffant. Who knows how old this woman was, but she had a husband on Long island and they loved it. Then I found an important line. Now, on this podcast, I've spoken about the fact that my brother took me to see Little Shop of Horrors.

[44:37] Meg: I knew it was Little Shop of Horrors.

[44:40] Jessica: Hold your thought.

[44:41] Meg: That was gonna be my guess.

[44:42] Jessica: Okay, but hold your thought. My memory was that it was playing at a small theater on St. Mark's. That was wrong.

[44:52] Meg: That was wrong.

[44:53] Jessica: So here's what I can tell you.

[44:54] Meg: I know where shop was.

[44:55] Jessica: Pine. I knew shopping was at the WPA Theater on Fifth Avenue and 18th Street. 138 Fifth Avenue.

[45:01] Meg: Indeed.

[45:02] Jessica: And it was May 1982, which tracks for my experience.

[45:06] Meg: Okay.

[45:07] Jessica: That's where the original Off, off, off premiered with Ellen Green, who wound up being in every permutation of it afterwards. So the ad for that is very cute. And you see you know, some little clips, but it's again, it's filmed so that it is an ad like you have a close up of Ellen Green saying, Mr. Mushnick, I always go for guys with. Right. And she and Seymour are singing. And then it cuts to people coming out of the theater.

[45:39] Meg: Okay.

[45:40] Jessica: And they interview a 15 year old girl because she actually looks like she's 15 and she's awkward and I think there are braces involved. And she is kind of horrified to be interviewed. But also, she loved it, but she cannot bring herself to say that. She says this little voice, it was better than Gremlins. It was better than E.T.

[46:02] Meg: oh my God, I love.

[46:03] Jessica: And I was like, that's it. Better than E.T.

[46:06] Meg: better than E.T.

[46:07] Jessica: alright, you gave us one of the lines. So it was little. So we've now got grand hotel, little shop. And you've also got the show I'm about to describe because it had the same thing. What I thought was Tony and Tina's wedding, which was 1988, by the way, the ad was from 1980 and the show was Gemini.

[46:30] Meg: That was not on my list. What is Gemini? Never heard of it.

[46:35] Jessica: Well, I'm so glad you asked. I am going to tell you about it.

[46:38] Meg: Great.

[46:39] Jessica: So Gemini premiered March 14, 1977, Playwrights Horizons. It was written by a 28 year old whose name was Albert Inarato. It was the fourth longest running show on Broadway. It had 1,819 performances. It ran from 1977 to 1981, September 5th. And it was a smash. Such a smash that it then moved from Playwrights Horizons to Broadway. And then there was a film of it with Madeline Kahn. And then there was a stage production that Showtime filmed and showed on their. I call it now on their channel. I was going to say platform. So this was a big deal show that I had never heard of.

[47:30] Meg: Gemini. Spelled like.

[47:31] Jessica: Like Gemini.

[47:32] Meg: Okay, okay, now thank you for that. Exactly.

[47:36] Jessica: Yes. Spelled like Gemini. I was like, why doesn't anyone talk about this play? People loved it. I think it's one of these plays that came out at a particular time with a certain message and then times changed very quickly and the message could have gotten muddy. So I'm going to tell you what it is and what Mel Gussow wrote about it for the New York Times. And then what actually happened afterwards that I think made it an invisible play. And there's some twists and turns that you will not believe. Mel Gusau says, when Albert Inarada's Gemini was first presented in December at Playwrights Horizon it seemed to be a grand, comic soap opera. In the play's latest and presumably definitive version, which opened last night at the Circle Rep Company, we not only see the rambunctious and bizarre comic vision, but we also see the heartbeat. And he talks about how the playwright made some changes, made it less of a total farce and gave it some depth, but that it's absolutely funny. Again, the Tony and Tina thing. It's a big Italian family in South Philly. The emotions are huge. He says. At one point, a character expresses her distaste for opera. All that screaming. It's not like real life, when that's exactly what's going on around them. The plot of it, it is the 21st birthday of a Harvard educated boy from working class, blue collar South Philly. And he's there feeling sort of displaced, but his dad adores him, played by Danny Aiello. And then there are these, like, the next door neighbors and everyone is a kook. And then who shows up unannounced but his girlfriend and her brother. This at first seems just like he's a little embarrassed by his family. But it then unfolds that he has a crush on the brother. Ooh. And he has to figure out what that is. And the two brother and sister are golden girl and boy. Wasps. And so they are on the other end of the spectrum of what his social understanding of society is. Gusauer wrote, gemini is filled with such infectious moments. It springs with humor and in the strangest places. Mr. Anarato is a natural writer who has a feeling both for the precise word that makes a line both spontaneous and genuinely amusing. And he goes on to say how hilarious it is and on and on and on. And the only thing that he says about the confusion with the brother and the sister and all of that one line. He's paid a visit by two friends from college, a brother and sister, two wealthy golden adolescents. The son is embarrassed, and he's also confused about his sexual orientation. That's it. This is in 1977. Okay. Keep that in mind.

[50:35] Meg: So they don't get together.

[50:37] Jessica: They do. It's not the focal point of the whole play, but it's definitely a huge part of his personality and Persona. So it doesn't take over the plot, but it is foundational to the character. It's like a really big deal. Here's what I came up with about why no one talks about this. So this came out in 1977. No AIDS. It's a comedy. It addresses class issues and gay identity, but it wasn't really obviously leaned into because the New York Times reviewer who loves it gives it half a sentence that that's part of the play. It's really glossed over. Then in 1980, a movie is made. The movie stars Madeline Kahn and Rita Moreno. All right, it's called Happy Birthday Gemini. And bizarrely, the girlfriend, I immediately recognized her. First I was like, oh, my God. She played the love interest in Caddyshack in 1980, same year. And then I realized, wait, she was the 13 year old daughter of the mayor in Animal House who. Who seduces Tom Hulse. He's horrified and is running away from the mayor. It doesn't age well. I'm just saying, that's who she played. The movie is stilted. It's not great. And it's weird because you've got these fantastic actors in it. And when Madeline Kahn and Rita Moreno are on screen, they are great. But it's like it's not quite a play and it's stage play and it's not quite a movie. So it doesn't really do well.

[52:22] Meg: Translating plays into film not always very difficult.

[52:26] Jessica: So the opportunity for the material to rise up into public consciousness three years after it debuts kind of fizzles. But then Showtime does a staged version in 1982. And who plays the 21 year old Scott Baio.

[52:47] Meg: Did he do okay?

[52:48] Jessica: Maga Bro. He was fine. Danny Aiello was back as the father. He was not in the film. But it's really dark.

[52:56] Meg: Was it staged to be filmed or was it a stage show that they

[53:01] Jessica: then filmed, staged to be filmed? So they sidestepped what the movie did and they were like, this is a play, but we're gonna film it and have close ups of it.

[53:10] Meg: But we're gonna choose Scott Baio rather than a theater actor.

[53:13] Jessica: Exactly.

[53:14] Meg: For obvious reasons.

[53:15] Jessica: Indeed. You know, for those who don't know or don't remember, when he was that age, he couldn't have been cuter.

[53:22] Meg: Teen Beat.

[53:23] Jessica: Teen Beat. He was adorable. So cute and so very appealing.

[53:30] Meg: But in working class.

[53:31] Jessica: Working class, all that stuff, the way that this thing was done, it struck me so strongly that the. The joyous insanity of it was not what they were really leaning into. And the scene where he actually hooks up with the brother is so dark and so fraught.

[53:57] Meg: Reagan era.

[53:59] Jessica: And it's done almost like a morality play.

[54:03] Meg: Psa.

[54:04] Jessica: Yes. Even though this will lead to despair. And it's not that the script was changed, it was the staging and the acting. Wow. And so I was really struck by this that, like this hilarious thing that I thought was part of the firmament of. I loved it. Right. Was. Was that. But it. It didn't survive. So this is, I guess, my second installment in why do plays do better or worse when they are redone? What. What was glossed over and ignored in 1977 and maybe even inserted as like an Easter egg into the plot became a focal point and a gloom and

[54:45] Meg: doom cautionary tale indeed. Thank you, Reagan.

[54:49] Jessica: So, anyway, happy birthday. Gemini is the film. The play is Gemini. See if you can find it online. As I did with Scott Baio, who's really acting hard. He's really bringing his B game.

[55:05] Meg: Turning to drama post Happy Days.

[55:07] Jessica: Exactly.

[55:18] Meg: Well, there's the obvious tie in that. We both talked about theatre.

[55:22] Jessica: Theatre, yes. Acting.

[55:26] Meg: How difficult it is to do theater. Theatre is very difficult, and it's very difficult to do well. I'm just saying it is.

[55:33] Jessica: And even when it's well reviewed, sometimes it cannot stand. That was really it standing the test of time, I guess. And what's interesting to me about the two different plays that we're talking about is that yours was about looking back, and this was about something that was probably happening at the time for the playwright, because the main character turns 21. The playwright was only seven years older, so he was probably 25 when he started writing it. Or younger and gay. Interesting. Time of life is also a theme.

[56:05] Meg: So we are taking next week off.

[56:08] Jessica: Indeed we are.

[56:08] Meg: A little spring break, and when we come back, we're going to have some fun news. So stay tuned.

[56:17] Jessica: Things in the works in the background. Yes, stay tuned.