[00:17] Jessica: I am Meg, and I am Jessica, and Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City. We. Where we still live and where we

[00:28] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines, and

[00:32] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:35] Meg: So Jesse Jackson died this week.

[00:38] Jessica: Indeed he did.

[00:39] Meg: And we did do a story about Jesse Jackson when he wasn't having his best moment. And I felt bad about that this week because we got a little activity that was about that episode, and I was like, oh, sorry. But he. I mean, honestly, he did do it. Anyway, that's a callback. Check it out. But on the bright side, I was

[01:01] Jessica: saying, I love that you're like, he did do it. But anyway. But you were actually saying something before we began that I. I think was. You know, everyone knows this, but it's really refreshing to hear someone say it out loud. So I'm. I'm quoting you to you when you said, you know, when someone dies, it's so common for whoever is reporting it or whatever media is covering it to make that person into a saint. You sang like a little heavenly angel chorus to illustrate it, which I really think was fantastic. But you were saying that Joe Scarborough did a. Did some coverage where he was basically. Basically saying, interesting, complicated man. His behavior and actions, mixed bag. And, yeah, no, look, no one is perfect. And he did go through a few few episodes of his life where his version of imperfection was pretty stark, but the other things that he did with civil rights were really amazing. So they're opposite ends of the spectrum.

[02:08] Meg: And I was speaking to my mother about it today, and she reminded me of something that is very appropriate for our podcast. The fact that Jesse Jackson ran for president, increased the amount of black people who were voting and led to David Dinkins being elected mayor, among other things.

[02:30] Jessica: That is a really interesting perspective. That is fascinating. RIP RIP before we move on to our regularly scheduled programming, there's another person who we lost this week. James Van Der Beekee, famously Dawson of Dawson's Creek.

[02:48] Meg: So sad.

[02:49] Jessica: So sad. I was not a fan of the show, whatever I was. I bet you were.

[02:55] Meg: Very much so.

[02:56] Jessica: But. But what I was gonna say is that what was really affecting is that from the moment he got sick and, you know, this is all social media posting and stuff. I don't think I've ever seen a celebrity receive as much support and outpouring of love in my life as James received from his former castmates from, you know, Just other celebrities of his generation.

[03:25] Meg: He did some really wonderful work after Dawson's Creek. A lot of it very funny. Where he was basically making fun of himself. And it hit so. Right. Spot on. Yeah.

[03:41] Jessica: I heard someone actually interviewed say that he had an unbelievable knack for comic timing and that he really should have explored comic acting more because he was hilarious.

[03:53] Meg: He did. He did as an adult.

[03:56] Jessica: Well, yes. And the stuff with his family that was online a lot like singing and really heart wrenching. And I'll tell you something. Cause you know, I enjoy nothing more than social media posts that make me sob. Quick aside, are you aware of the little macaque monkey named, I think, Chung or Zheng, who. Whose mother died and the zookeepers gave him a stuffed orangutan and he carries it every place and he's tiny. And they put him in the enclosure with the other monkeys and they rejected him. They literally booted him away from them. Well, there's an update. And they finally have accepted him. I was sobbing, just so you know. So this is. This is an aside. Just sob. No, he. And so that little monkey is going to be just fine. Okay. But my point was I enjoy a good sob. So Alfonso Ribeiro posted a photo of him with James Van Der Beek at his bedside as he was dying. And the two of them holding each other. And this, like, tribute that he wrote to. And I was just sitting in my living room sobbing, sobbing. It was so. Ugh. So anyway, clearly a love.

[05:30] Meg: When did you learn how to swim?

[05:32] Jessica: You know what I love about you so much before I answered this question. So all that I can see of your face is like the bridge of your nose and your eyes over the pop screen on the mic. And whenever you do your engagement question, you lean in and squint at me. So I know it's gonna be a good one by how much you're squinching up your face. I have a good answer for you.

[05:55] Meg: Great.

[05:57] Jessica: So I learned how to swim when I was probably 7 or so. Because earlier in the summer, I'd been in France and was told. Because I couldn't swim. I was told to hold the hand of the little girl who's four years older than me from the family who we are with. And she slipped and fell into the canal and didn't let go of my hands.

[06:23] Meg: Oh, my God.

[06:23] Jessica: And pulled me into the canal with her. She could swim. I couldn't. Then she let go of my hand in the water and thank God some fishermen came and plucked me out of the canal. Near death. Near Death. So that summer, there I am. Picture it. Fort Lauderdale, 1977. I was visiting my Aunt Phyllis and Uncle Jerry. We were at the community pool and who's there but David Leichman from the Fleming School, my little friend who was my boyfriend by coincidence, total coincidence. And I allowed him to teach me how to swim, at least to like float. So that was my first experience, like getting more in control in, in the water. Sweet. Yeah, so that was the be. But you know, I, I, I had a brief stint on the swim team, which I think we've talked about on the podcast before. So I wound up being a strong, but admittedly slow swimmer.

[07:33] Meg: My sources are New York magazine. A very long article on the 4th of July 1984. On Rockaway beach, the 117th Street Lifeguard Shack was the hot spot for the wildest parties. The lifeguards used 50 gallon trash cans to mix what they call Bash vodka, rum, tequila and Hawaiian punch.

[08:03] Jessica: Well, that will send your kidneys into immediate failure.

[08:08] Meg: Hundreds of lifeguards drained 40 kegs, which equals 6,600 cans of beer. And while extreme, some version of that celebration and all the debauchery that went along with it was pretty standard whenever the beaches were open.

[08:30] Jessica: 40 barrels of bash. Yeah, that's nauseating.

[08:37] Meg: New York City beaches and public pools employ the largest lifeguard corps in the United states.

[08:46] Jessica: Really?

[08:47] Meg: Really. 1,374 guards protect 13.3 million annual visitors to 14 miles of beach and 53 outdoor pools from Coney island to the Bronx. Lifeguards are hired at the city level. And New York is the largest city because you might be wondering, what about la?

[09:14] Jessica: Yes, indeed I was.

[09:16] Meg: There are lots of cities along the coast of Los Angeles county by comparison.

[09:21] Jessica: Ah.

[09:24] Meg: Who is in charge of all these lifeguards?

[09:28] Jessica: I have no Idea who?

[09:29] Meg: From 1981 until 2025, it was one man. Peter Stein, New York's version of David Hasselhoff was a short, stout, hairy Jewish guy who started his rise to power when he got a Lifeguard job at 15 patrolling Manhattan beach in South Brooklyn. He hated being a lifeguard. He felt menial tasks like lining garbage cans were beneath him. But it was a decent city job that paid for college. After graduating he became a gym teacher and continued to lifeguard. He started training lifeguards as well. The job is dangerous and requires physical fitness and life saving skills. Like many first responders. But unlike police, EMTs and firefighters, the turnover is very high, 25% annually. Lifeguards are usually teenagers looking for part time work who move on to other jobs in their mid-20s. There are a few old timers who stick around as long as they can pass the annual fitness tests. Peter was one of these. At his lifeguard school on East 54th street, he trained wannabe guards to spot heat stroke, how to not be pulled under by a panicked drowning victim, and the sylvester method, which was used before CPR was standard. But Peter was never all that interested in the job of saving lives. He saw opportunity in the bureaucracy. He stuck it out in the job. And by 1981, when he was 36, he became the citywide lifeguard coordinator and the president of the lifeguard union. 508. There were two municipal employee unions associated with the lifeguards. Local 508 was for the supervisors. Local 461 was for the rank and file teenagers. As the man in charge of giving desirable assignments, Peter Stein was able to curry favor with the supervisors. The supervisors, in turn, kept the rank and file in line, ultimately creating a fiefdom for Stein. Peter Stein was now the boss and the guy you go to to complain about your boss. And beach life in the 80s was like a scene from the warriors. Lifeguards would dive into the water to dodge drive by shootings. Teenagers broke into public pools to party. Floating bodies in pools and body parts washed up on beaches were normal.

[12:22] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[12:25] Meg: Coney island guards partied hard and made t shirts with we drink, you sink. And New York waters are scary enough on their own. Coney island has dangerous whirlpools. Orchard beach has a steep drop off that catches swimmers off guard. Rainy days can cause unsanitary water flush.

[12:50] Jessica: You don't want to know just the words water flush. No, thank you.

[12:55] Meg: And the rip currents of Rockaway beach are notorious for sucking swimmers out to sea. In the 80s, a busy day on Rockaway beach would involve 40 staves. It also doesn't help that lots of New York kids aren't great swimmers. They haven't grown up with swimming as part of their daily life. So they underestimate nature and overestimate their abilities. All this chaos helped keep Peter Stein in power until last year.

[13:29] Jessica: No way.

[13:31] Meg: And all the power he accrued led, predictably to corruption. Hmm. Every year, lifeguards have to pass a timed swim test. To get a coveted beach post. You have to swim 440 yards in 6 minutes and 40 seconds for a pool, 5 minutes, 40 seconds. Periodically over the years, Stein was called out for extorting money from lifeguards by threatening to fail them on their swim test or passing cronies of his as long as they voted for him to stay head of the union.

[14:07] Jessica: Wait, so he's extorting money from teenagers?

[14:10] Meg: Yeah.

[14:11] Jessica: So what is this, like penny ante?

[14:13] Meg: Like 10 bucks a piece, actually.

[14:15] Jessica: Oh, no way.

[14:16] Meg: There are lots there.

[14:17] Jessica: But there are lots of them, yeah. Wow. Interesting.

[14:23] Meg: There were fat 50 year old lifeguards who had supposedly passed the swim test.

[14:29] Jessica: Stop it.

[14:30] Meg: People accuse Stein of giving prime lifeguard spots to his friends and sending Troublemakers to Beach 32nd street in Far Rockaway. What they called the 32 Skidoo.

[14:42] Jessica: Well, what happens on 32nd Street, Meg? This doesn't sound good.

[14:46] Meg: It's Siberia.

[14:48] Jessica: Oh, okay. I thought that was, like, where the actual warriors come out to play. It's like, I didn't know you guys were so into swimming. Okay, did you put the beer bottles down for a sec? Clink, clink. About to swim.

[15:03] Meg: After Two boys ages 12 and 14 disappeared under the waves and a disorganized, understaffed lifeguard crew failed to save them, Joe McManus started campaigning for Stein's spot as chief lifeguard. McManus saw the improvements in California beach surveillance, jet skis, physical regimens, and knew how New York could improve. But Stein felt threatened and sent McManus to Beach 32. See, once you're at Beach 32, nobody even knows you're around. It's like, oh, I haven't seen him for months. Where is he? Beach 32. Wow.

[15:46] Jessica: Yeah, I mean, it's bad, but there's something kind of hilarious about it. Like, and I have to admit, I'm having, like, this vision of what the New York version of Baywatch would be. And it's like, you know, they have the. They're running, but it would be running and, like, leaping over corpses and, like, watch out for that hypodermic. Keep going.

[16:08] Meg: Seriously. On Beach 32, when McManus tried for Union president, Stein made threats and promises throughout the five boroughs and created the rule that every anonymous vote had to be in an envelope with a signed name.

[16:25] Jessica: Wait, what? Every anonymous vote had to be.

[16:30] Meg: Every vote had to be put in an envelope, and you had to sign the envelope.

[16:34] Jessica: But that's not anonymous anymore, now, is it?

[16:36] Meg: No, it's not, Jessica.

[16:38] Jessica: So that's kind of ridiculous. Like, not even ridiculous.

[16:41] Meg: Like, well, interesting. Isn't it perplexing, because he's so worried that you're nonsensical.

[16:49] Jessica: No, not to him, obviously, but just anonymous votes will now not be. Anonymous is a better directive. There are no more anonymous votes, right?

[16:59] Meg: That's how you can threaten people, as we well know.

[17:03] Jessica: Yes,

[17:05] Meg: yes. How to make an election corrupt. I don't know. Make sure that absolutely everybody has to have an id A certain kind of ID that they show at the front. I mean, you know, have people police

[17:19] Jessica: it in and covering their faces with masks while they police it.

[17:26] Meg: Well, McManus barely got a vote, knowing he would win. Stein met McManus at the Union hall in Tribeca. So you're here. Why don't you go home and play with your gun? That's what stein said to McManus.

[17:43] Jessica: Play with your gun?

[17:45] Meg: Yes.

[17:45] Jessica: Oh.

[17:45] Meg: Oh.

[17:46] Jessica: Oh, God. Oh, God. Come on. That's so. That's just so childish.

[17:51] Meg: Well, it's. It's a little chilling as well.

[17:53] Jessica: Yes.

[17:55] Meg: As you can imagine, when you have someone at the head of an organization who cares only about power and not the actual purpose of the organization, a shit show ensues. Does it remind you of anything?

[18:11] Jessica: Uh, this is reminiscent of something. Hmm. I can't figure out what it is.

[18:17] Meg: Just making sure you're catching what I'm catching.

[18:19] Jessica: The current affairs vibe.

[18:22] Meg: All right. Public advocate Mark Green, who, by the

[18:26] Jessica: way, Mark Greene, lived in the very first building I lived in after graduating from College on East 88th Street.

[18:36] Meg: That's quite a fun fact.

[18:37] Jessica: I'm just giving you trivia. Okay.

[18:41] Meg: Public advocate Mark Green determined in 1994 that the lifeguard program was, and this is a quote, swimming in mismanagement, negligence, secrecy, favoritism, conflicts, and deception. Lifeguards dressed up torpedo buoys with jackets and hats to sit their shifts.

[19:06] Jessica: Stop it.

[19:07] Meg: There was widespread favoritism in hiring, including passing people who literally couldn't swim. A child had drowned in a wading pool while lifeguards played football nearby.

[19:23] Jessica: Oh.

[19:23] Meg: Out of the couple of hundred investigations I did as public advocate, few of any agencies were as secretive and uncooperative as the lifeguard unit.

[19:35] Jessica: A sea of corruption.

[19:37] Meg: Yes.

[19:37] Jessica: Swimming. Sorry. Go ahead.

[19:39] Meg: Yes. Stein and those in his inner circle profited, which I'm sure will not surprise you. Unsurprised, an audit in the 90s uncovered 1.5 million spent on town cars, 2 million on catering, 2.9 million for trips to Hawaii and Israel. $29,250 for jumbo shrimp at a lifeguard convention in Chicago.

[20:06] Jessica: Give me that number again.

[20:08] Meg: $29,250 for jumbo shrimp.

[20:12] Jessica: I don't know why that's. The fact that I know is going to be my. My takeaway from this entire story.

[20:19] Meg: And in the meantime, the rank and file Teenagers got the memoir. The alpha male vibe led to appalling instances of sexual harassment and hazing and assault, which I won't even get into because it is so disturbing. But wherever your imagination can go, trust me, that's what they were doing. Of course. Right? I mean, of course.

[20:50] Jessica: And still sounding familiar.

[20:53] Meg: Uh huh huh. What's more, the city's drowning fatality rate was three times the national average. So why was Peter Stein allowed to stay in power through six mayoral administrations? Adrian Benape. I think that's how you pronounce it. Mayor Bloomberg's head of the Parks Department said, quote, every summer was a countdown from when we opened to draining the pools to say nobody drowned. If it's 100 degrees, there's two scenarios. We send every cop in the city to keep people out of the water, and there's a riot or 15 people drown. For all his faults, Stein kept millions of people safe. Now, he didn't keep enough millions of people safe, but they were terrified because he'd been there for so long.

[21:55] Jessica: If they pulled one thread on the sweater, that everything would unravel and then God knows what would happen.

[22:00] Meg: Exactly. Like, you cannot keep people out of the water.

[22:03] Jessica: Now that is interesting to me. I think that it's the ultimate cop out of, well, we're going to keep a piece of shit in power because he happens to know the rules.

[22:15] Meg: So a shitty job is better than no one showing up at all. All Stein had to do was threaten a lifeguard strike on the 4th of July to keep the mayors in line.

[22:26] Jessica: He's a diabolical little man.

[22:29] Meg: One veteran lifeguard said, quote, everyone in the park's department hates the lifeguards because we get away with murder. It gets worse and worse every year. But in recent years, Peter Stein began to lose his grip a bit. He became paranoid and prone to rages. Homemade signs started showing up in Conley's, a lifeguard bar in Rockaway, saying, quote, what does your union do for you after it takes your dues? Let's make lifeguarding great again.

[23:09] Jessica: Stop it.

[23:10] Meg: Please. Remember, there is strength in unity.

[23:13] Jessica: Wait. Stop it.

[23:14] Meg: And in January 2025, Peter Stein quietly retired. At the age of 80, he was making $230,000 a year.

[23:26] Jessica: What a hateful little shit. Is he dead yet? Can we put him on the RIP list?

[23:32] Meg: He's not dead.

[23:34] Jessica: He walks among us, which is a tragedy.

[23:36] Meg: You know, I was telling my mom that I was doing this story, and we were kind of joking about how we didn't go to beaches in the 80s or the 90s or the 2000s? No, but many people do. I mean, especially now. It's so easy. It's so much more accessible. You just take the ferry over to Far Rockway. Fun, right?

[23:59] Jessica: I would never. I've been to New York City beaches. You could not pay me enough money to get me in the water. Like, never. This is another callback. What was it? Crimson Tide Was. Yes. After that whole situation and knowing about bodies and some other sinister flotsam and jetsam. Seriously, like, my entire vision of getting into the water and any New York beach is instant death. It's like you walk in and then you walk back out, and from, like, your kneecaps down, it's only bone. Like, the water has eaten away your flesh. You're done. You're done for.

[24:42] Meg: My mom was talking about how Sid Schwager, who she dated for a long time and was a great love of hers. He grew up in New York, and he used to be a lifeguard. He was still getting a pension.

[24:56] Jessica: Stop it right now.

[24:57] Meg: In his 80s.

[24:59] Jessica: You stop that right now.

[25:00] Meg: Strong union. The lifeguard union.

[25:03] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[25:05] Meg: I was like, mommy. Oh, my God. That's part of the problem.

[25:09] Jessica: Oh, my God. Like, 110%. That's nits.

[25:15] Meg: I know.

[25:16] Jessica: Wow. So I guess the big question is, should we become lifeguards? Maybe that'll be our wacky New York summer.

[25:24] Meg: No, this is not the year to become, like, Survivor.

[25:28] Jessica: You love Survivor. This seems like it's right up your. Up your alley.

[25:32] Meg: The thing that the mayors were fearing for all these years has now happened. Peter Stein is not in power anymore, and it's a hot mess out there. I think this summer is going to be really scary on the beaches. I'm just saying, like, I hope it will someday lead to a situation that is much safer, because that is the point. Save the lives and allow us to enjoy our beautiful city. But it's gonna be chaos.

[26:02] Jessica: Well, I'm hoping that there's been someone jockeying for position who's been, like, cooking up a plan all this time so that they're like, ha, ha. Stein's out of the way. Now I can, you know, implement my grand scheme.

[26:15] Meg: There are a bunch of those people that I read about who are like, thank goodness. Now we have an opportunity. But still, he left. What he left behind is, like, in tatters. For them to clean it all up and hire in time.

[26:29] Jessica: Yeah, he strikes me as the kind

[26:30] Meg: of guy who'd be like, rush right now.

[26:32] Jessica: You know, here's I'm leaving my job. Enjoy the office that I shit in for you to have to now.

[26:38] Meg: Exactly.

[26:38] Jessica: Experience.

[26:39] Meg: So this story made me think, obviously, about the current administration and, you know, the fish rots from the head and all that stuff. It also made me think about unions. Have you ever been a member of a union?

[26:53] Jessica: No.

[26:53] Meg: Okay. I'm a member of three unions, I guess, or two, really. And I love my unions. Thank God for unions. I am pro union without them, really. Trust me, the world would suck. But there's also so much opportunity for corruption, unfortunately. And for this, this awful, like, bullying and negotiations that ends up undermining the entire purpose of your job.

[27:25] Jessica: It sucks. Yes. There's someone close to me who, you know, he is in a union, and I've been, you know, my jaw has been hanging down as I've been listening to the ineffectual nature of the heads of the union and the general disorganization and, like, terrible communication within the union, bad messaging, like, just. Just appalling.

[27:51] Meg: But on the other hand, Amazon employees should be allowed to unionize. God damn it. Agreed.

[27:58] Jessica: My hatred for squinty Jeff Bezos and that pneumatically inflated Lauren Sanchez is so, so white hot that all I can do, Meg, is try to restrain myself and say, yes, yes, they should be allowed to unionize. It's.

[28:21] Meg: And to close this out. We're so political today.

[28:24] Jessica: Yeah, why not? I mean, look at the world we're living in at the moment. Speaking of. Wait, quick, quick, political aside, are you aware that the UN had a special council that I think in the last day, maybe it was even today, declared everything in the Epstein files crimes against humanity. And so they can. They are now going to be able to investigate. And little by little, you know, as European countries have been really going after political figures criminally, the administration's stranglehold on what's to be done seems to be eroding a bit. When I saw that it was crimes against humanity splashed across the news, I was like, oh, that's gonna be interesting.

[29:10] Meg: Good news. So, in closing, speaking about unions, I, like many, many, many people, have become a little addicted to, oh, I need it. I'll just get it from Amazon. No more. You've heard it here and I've been doing it now for a couple of weeks. It is not hard. You can get it somewhere else a hundred percent. So let's do that. No more Amazon.

[29:35] Jessica: Yeah, I really. I can't say rarely, infrequently, and when it's a last dish. So I will Join you.

[29:43] Meg: Cool. You know what?

[29:44] Jessica: I'm making a commitment, Meg. I will join you.

[29:56] Meg: We just took, like, half an hour off, Mike.

[30:00] Jessica: I think. I think it was more than that. And we covered so much ground.

[30:05] Meg: I guess a lot has happened in the last week.

[30:08] Jessica: I mean, should we just give, like, a quick recap of how much we were able to cover? We covered Nancy Guthrie. We covered many different facets where she

[30:17] Meg: is, by the way, and I believe she is still alive. Just to give some hope out there.

[30:22] Jessica: And I encourage you to call the tip line, as did your friend Kate,

[30:25] Meg: because I have a very good theory about what's going on here.

[30:28] Jessica: We covered many different aspects of Epstein and many different aspects of the Trump family. We made fun of how dumb the Trump boys, the Trump men, are. Which, by the way, is a quick side note, leads me to just quickly open the conversation to how much our friend Alejandra is absolutely mystified by Kimberly Guilfoyle's styling. I love it. Particularly her hair. Well, the face. The face is a nightmare. But the styling. But it's the hair. It's the hair and the miniskirts. And like, her, she just. So she sends me photos with some regularity and it's like, explain. And the other person, the one whose face she can't fathom and also can't get enough of is Lauren Sanchez.

[31:20] Meg: Interesting.

[31:20] Jessica: Yeah.

[31:21] Meg: What is happening to us in this world, I wonder, being taught what not to do.

[31:27] Jessica: Well, I was just gonna say, I wonder if there's a younger woman backlash at all against the extreme plastic ness

[31:39] Meg: because of these creatures. That would be great. Let's do that. Oh, natural. Yeah.

[31:45] Jessica: I mean, it's just so. Sorry, this is. My sophisticated answer is just so fucking weird. They're just so weird, you know, like, they're kind of. They're just gross and weird and then, oh, this is Ale's other obsession. She's like, this is the best. What does Lauren Sanchez look like when the makeup comes off and the lashes do like, it's got. And I was like, maybe it's like some bizarre scar filled, pockmarked scenario. Like, what could it be be? Like? It's like, what is being spackled over? Anyway, so that's. That's her obsession.

[32:28] Meg: But onto your story, which is my

[32:30] Jessica: story pales in comparison to any of the things we were talking about. I'm going to talk about something that it's a new aspect of, something that we have covered before, but it kicked off the 80s and was the death knell of the 70s, all in one shot. We're going to talk about the very last night of Studio 54.

[32:54] Meg: Okay.

[32:55] Jessica: Very last night. Did you ever see the movie Last Days of Disco, the Whit Stillman movie? The more that I was reading about this, I was like, wit, you didn't even make anything up. You just took the entire demise of studio wholesale and just turn that into a movie. So it felt sort of familiar and kind of nice. But I love. I love that movie. I really do. And I love what a total bitch Kate Beckinsale's character is and how she really gets it in the end. It's really quite delightful.

[33:31] Meg: I absolutely saw it. I remember the casting very well, obviously the styling very well, but I don't remember liking it very much. Well, it was, I think, the storytelling crisp.

[33:47] Jessica: I think it was this, his next film after Metropolitan. And I think it would have been very hard for anyone to follow up the debut that was, like, low budge and so on point, you know, with something that people would love. It was like a very sophomore outing, but I really, really enjoyed it. And I liked even just things that, like, don't even happen that much.

[34:16] Meg: Like, the.

[34:17] Jessica: The girls were living in a shithole, and they were getting, like. It felt. It felt like New York. Like, again, it was one of those, like, he got it right. Like, the way you move through the city, the way you live, what it's like to have a bitch roommate. Like, all of those things, because the Chloe Sevigny character. Yeah. Is the. Is the focal point. So it did. It felt very true. So.

[34:40] Meg: Well, tell me, because I literally cannot remember. I think I know something about the last days of Studio 54, but please, I shall.

[34:52] Jessica: So I was fascinated to find out the history of the building and that it started out as an opera house. And that at the time it was, like, roughly 1900. There were many, many opera houses in Midtown. So it was one of many.

[35:11] Meg: It's near Carnegie Hall.

[35:12] Jessica: Indeed. And it went through various iterations. It was a regular legit theater. And then CBS bought it, and it was where they filmed a ton of stuff, including what's My line? Password, the $64,000 question, I've got a Secret, and your favorite and mine, Captain Kangaroo.

[35:36] Meg: Shut.

[35:38] Jessica: I am shutting up.

[35:39] Meg: Are you sure?

[35:41] Jessica: I'm a hundred percent positive.

[35:43] Meg: I didn't know he was in New

[35:45] Jessica: York with that haircut. It seemed improbable. I was leaning in from Idaho or from, like, outer space. Yes. Oh, my God. So they moved into that building in 1956, and after two decades they moved out in 1976 and put the building up for sale. And Studio 54 in 1977 opened its doors in that space. So I was like, huh? And that studio for CBS was called Studio 52. At first it was going to be called Studio 52. And someone eventually was like, Dummies, you're on 54th Street. You might want to call it Studio 54. Because Ian Schrager and Steve Rubell had had another. You know, they had restaurants and clubs in the outer boroughs. And one of them, someone had suggested just use the. The street name. And it was lands down something. And that's what they called it. So I guess they needed a reminder that, you know, using your actual location in the name of the club helps people to find it. So you can then make them stand outside. Outside a rope. So anyway, that is how Steve Rebel and Ian Schrager wound up in Studio 54. And I didn't realize it. Do you know that the heyday of studio that people are still obsessed with lasted 30 months?

[37:15] Meg: Yes, I do know that.

[37:16] Jessica: I still find that absolutely stunning. It really is.

[37:21] Meg: I mean, so many iconic institutions open and close in this city and don't make a mark like that. And the fact that they managed to do something so historical in 30 months is crazy.

[37:36] Jessica: No, it's completely bananas.

[37:39] Meg: I think the right thing at the right time. Yeah.

[37:41] Jessica: And the idea that they made this democracy where all of the, you know, names, the biggest names of the time wanted to be, but they were also letting in normal people. So they were like, if you got into Studio, fabulous people, right? Yes.

[38:01] Meg: Who nobody knew the name of, except

[38:03] Jessica: that they looked fabulous, that they were interesting.

[38:07] Meg: Yes.

[38:08] Jessica: Gen teresting. Yes. If you were bridge and tunnel, the likelihood that you were getting in was zero.

[38:14] Meg: Absolutely zero.

[38:16] Jessica: But you did have the opportunity, if you got in as a normal person, to dance the night away with Liza with a Z. Because the stars felt safe. In fact, they felt so safe, a lot of shenanigans went on. And we're going to talk about that for a second.

[38:32] Meg: Lots of people had photographs of it.

[38:33] Jessica: Yes, they did. No one seemed to care about that, which was really interesting.

[38:38] Meg: It is interesting.

[38:39] Jessica: Such a photographed club and while they're

[38:43] Meg: getting trashed and doing drugs and dancing away, nobody was careful.

[38:48] Jessica: No, not at all. So is that the sign of another time? Is that the 70s, like, it didn't occur to them yet that, like, now people would be.

[38:58] Meg: Well, and in fact, they do pose. They want to be photographed. I don't know if they did@studio54. Want to be photographed? I think they were just.

[39:08] Jessica: They were just there. Yeah. In 1978. So one year after opening, federal officials began investigations into the club. And they. Their investigation was, where'd you get the money to open the club? And it was determined that there were some mob ties, so they were getting mob money or other criminal. Criminally associated funds to open it. And then it was determined that they were, or it was alleged that they were continuing, you know, their original investors to launder money through the club. And I love, by the way, in 1978, the idea of a disco was still so new that the New York Times calls it a discotheque. Spelled D I S C O T H E, accent grave. Ooh, Q U E. So still very France.

[40:06] Meg: Yeah, yeah. Because I think you have talked about this on the podcast. Discothecas were in Europe.

[40:15] Jessica: Indeed.

[40:16] Meg: So before they came over here.

[40:18] Jessica: Yes. On December 14th, members of the IRS and the DEA flooded into unannounced, into Studio 54 and started grabbing all of the files that they could out of the place. They were just getting every bit of information they could. Now, who is the lawyer? Who's our most.

[40:42] Meg: Roy Cohn, of course.

[40:43] Jessica: So Roy Cohn, who we've talked about, said that all of the money laundering and also the charges about cocaine moving through the club were, quote, definitely a setup. But officials of the strike force unit of the U.S. attorney's office showed up and found an illegal cache of 300 quaalude pills. Oops. That's a lot of Quaaludes, people in a basement safe. And of course, Schrager and Rubell were like, that's not our Quaaludes in our safe. We have no idea how they got there.

[41:17] Meg: Do you find it at all interesting that their office was in the actual club?

[41:24] Jessica: I think.

[41:25] Meg: I mean, I guess that's the way it works in the Sopranos. So I guess that's normal to have like the office for the.

[41:32] Jessica: I think you'd want to watch what's going on. And as the bar, the money from the bar, it's all cash. Like, don't. Like it's the seventies. There's no cards. There are charge cards, but it's not.

[41:44] Meg: So you don't want somebody gathering up a hundred thousand dollars and walking to.

[41:50] Jessica: No, I would imagine it's more like a casino. Like they're watching the floor and they are making sure that everything comes upstairs and then goes down to the Quaalude safe. The government agents also said there were five ounces of Cocaine, which became three ounces, which became two ounces. And Roy Cohn was like, how could anyone believe. How could anyone believe them? Their credibility is zero. And I was like, that sounds a lot like someone who's orange. Who we all know and hate. Bad. It's bad. Sad. No. Not credible.

[42:22] Meg: Yes. The orange person, his mentor was Rory Cohn.

[42:26] Jessica: Exactly. Ian Schrager. By the way, do you know how old these two were at the end of studio?

[42:33] Meg: Let me guess. 28, 31 and 32. Okay.

[42:38] Jessica: Steve Rubell was 32 and Ian Schrager was 31 years old. Like, what was I doing with myself when I was in my 30s? Like, these guys had built a whole, like, restaurant empire already. And Steve Rubell went to Syracuse. Like, it wasn't like he went to Cornell. Like, his OBGYN brother, who was an art collector and doing very well for himself, he went to and did terribly at Syracuse, but was there to play tennis.

[43:07] Meg: Maybe.

[43:08] Jessica: Maybe I don't. But he played tennis. He was. And interestingly tiny. Steve Rubell, who was five. Five. His brother was six. Two.

[43:17] Meg: Weird.

[43:18] Jessica: Very strange, right?

[43:20] Meg: I'm sorry. I don't know if that happens in nature.

[43:23] Jessica: I. I'm just saying that I'm thinking, like, why would you be so motivated to do. Oh, you were short. Oh, okay. Ian Schrager said that he was very touched by everyone who came up to him to provide support, and particularly Bianca Jagger and Halston, of course. Like, it's like, you can't talk about the seventies without being like. And Halston was there, like, oh, Jesus, where was Ann Halston? And he said, you know, the whole thing, the raid, it's all out of the movies. Tell me, why should an individual who works hard and is successful like me be so stupid as to have cocaine around? It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't. And he. He looked forlornly at his empty file drawers and said, they took everything. Even my personal checkbook, telephone books, records of who's booked what parties. I don't even know which Christmas parties are going to be here. So this is. This article came out 10 days before Christmas.

[44:20] Meg: I'm actually stressed out for him, which is ridiculous because this happened a long time ago. But I. I feel for him in this moment.

[44:27] Jessica: Well, I think it's hilarious that he's like, the government took my files and my phone book. Boat is a big deal. Yeah. What cheek. Yeah, it's called. Yeah, we're gonna find out everyone else who buyed fucking coke from you, you fucking cokey McCokester. What are you talking about? Quaalude guy? 300 quaaludes. I have. He's clutching the pearls. I have no idea why they would ever take my personal belongings. Please give me a break. So cut to February 2, 1980. Everything is now over for these two. All the drugs, all the money, and particularly, as we know, the tax evasion. It was the tax evasion and the non tax paying where they finally got the very Capone devil's advocate.

[45:23] Meg: How are you supposed to pay taxes on money that you're not declaring? And how can you declare said money if it is earned illegally?

[45:33] Jessica: I think that's exactly the IRS's argument.

[45:36] Meg: I'm just saying if you are somebody like, I mean, how am I supposed to pay taxes on something that I'm not supposed to tell you that I made in the first?

[45:45] Jessica: Well, I think that that that's what Rubell and Schrager were saying when they said, you know what? We're going to do a plea deal. We're going to, we're going to plea out of this. And it's how they got three and a half years sentenced and parole after a third of their sentence. So no big deal. But what they decided to do, as would only be correct for Studio 54, was February. The night of February 2nd into the morning of February 3rd, 1980. They had a party. They had the party lit trelle to end all parties. And they called it the end of modern day Gamora. This is how they titled their party. Their closing party guests included Diana Ross, Sylvester Stallone, Jack Nicholson, Richard Gere and his pets. Stop. Ryan o', Neal, Reggie Jackson, Mariel Hemingway.

[46:46] Meg: Reggie Jackson.

[46:47] Jessica: Yeah, Reggie Jackson in the 70s. Are you kidding me?

[46:50] Meg: No, no. We're in 1980. Yes. Okay.

[46:52] Jessica: Diana Ross sang for Steve Rubell and he got up with her and sang in the DJ booth. They were playing Michael Jackson, don't stop till you get enough. They were, they were leaning into their own mythology very hard. What I love about it, and there's just really one detail that for me is like, God, I love con men sometimes because they're so like, when you find them out, it's like, guys, you had me. Okay, good, good Con. This is from the Daily News, which can be relied upon. And by the way, my sources are the New York Times, a website called Tasty Turntable. But here's the Daily News. Diana Ross sang, but it wasn't the blues. Richard Gere, Andy Warhol, Lorna Luft, by the way, Lorna Luft, a name that the Young people have no knowledge of. I think we're gonna have to do like a whole Lorna Luft special. Let's do it. Excellent.

[47:50] Meg: The Carlisle.

[47:52] Jessica: Lorna Luft. David Brenner. Love Reggie.

[47:56] Meg: Oh, my God. The Incredible Hulk.

[47:57] Jessica: No, not. That's David Banner and that's the character's name. Jesus Christ. David Brenner is a comedian. Oh, of course. Oh, my God. And more than 2,000 people showed up to cheer on Ian Schrager and Steve Rubell for their last hoo ha. Seldom, if ever have two convicted felons been given such a send off. An unsuspecting visitor might have thought the Dynamic Duo were going on a world cruise instead of to prison for skimming profits and evading taxes. But at 2am yesterday, no one was thinking about prison bars. As the throng cheered, Rubell strolled in on the arms of good buddies Liza Minnelli, her husband Mark Guerrero, and designer Halston. Halston, go home, Halston. You must be exhausted. How many times can you show up at Studio 54 to provide support? Well, you know what? Halston really liked a lot of cocaine. So I think that Halston, like we. If we could just replace the name Halston with cocaine. His good friend Cocaine showed up in a turtleneck as. As he did Diana Ross, climbed into the disco booth and sang. Rubell said to the crowd, I'll be happy if you all keep coming to Studio 54 while I'm away. The place really went to pieces when Rubell said, the drinks are on the house. Now, the best part that I love the most is that after the club closed that night and the feds went in, they started literally tearing the place apart, taking hammers to the walls. What's here? Well, they were right, because in the walls of Studio 50. Oh, how could anyone say this about clutching? Well, you know, we're not involved in anything. Wrong in the walls. Giant stashes of money and the cocaines. Oh, my God, I had no idea.

[49:58] Meg: Yes, in the walls. That's Edgar Allan Poe stuff.

[50:02] Jessica: Or like, as we both really enjoy, like little burrowing rats. They're like little critters. They're like, ooh, I'm going squirrel it away inside this tree.

[50:11] Meg: It's totally cask of amontillad.

[50:13] Jessica: Yes, it is. Or the telltale heart the cocaine was beating in the floor.

[50:18] Meg: Yeah, there you go.

[50:19] Jessica: The cocaines. Okay, here are the things that I love about this little tale. They had so much self awareness. They're like, okay, it's the last days of Gamora. We know who we are. But God forbid you say that we are that thing. But we're still gonna call it Gamora. How dare you say that we are Lucian Dissipated. It's Gamora. I love that Halston would go to the opening of an envelope and shows up constantly. And I love. I just love that Studio 54 was known so much for being the hotbed for every illicit substance that you could possibly find. That part of what the busboys earned was what they could find in the couches.

[51:04] Meg: Oh, interesting.

[51:06] Jessica: When everyone went home. Yes. So the amount of drugs, the poppers, the cocaine, the weed, whatever that they were pulling out of there was epic. So if that's just in the couch, when someone leaves, they're like, us, never again. It smacks of Roy Cohn. And I kind of. I just love the audacity. And I hadn't realized how briefly the real studio was around. And I was like, well, it makes sense. If you're going to throw the best party on earth, who can afford that? Oh, only people who are skimming money and not paying their taxes, apparently. You know, we talk about Giuliani taking away dancing in the city. And I was just watching a movie that I actually recommend, and of course, I was like, I really like this movie. Why do I like this movie so much? And at the end, I was like, oh, it's directed by Darren Aronofsky. Oh, it's his movie, Caught Stealing. Oh. And it takes place in 1998. It's out now on streaming. And in the opening scene, they're in a bar and some people are dancing. And the bartender's like, you can't do that in here, Giuliani. They're like, God damn it. There's no place to have fun. That happened to us. Yes.

[52:24] Meg: In the 90s.

[52:25] Jessica: It did. So stark contrast to we're gonna party so hard. Cause there's cocaine in the walls and quaaludes in the basement.

[52:44] Meg: My parents went to Studio 54.

[52:46] Jessica: Did they now?

[52:47] Meg: They did. And my father tells this story over and over and over. If you believed him, you would think that they were regulars. But really, it was one night. And I know what my mother was wearing. Do you wanna hear what she was wearing?

[53:04] Jessica: Of course I wanna hear what she was wearing.

[53:05] Meg: By the way, I wore the same exact outfit when I was in Threepenny Opera at the Collegiate School.

[53:12] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[53:13] Meg: It was a black slinky dress that was pretty frigging gorgeous, I gotta say. But it was basically negligee and this fluffy purple boa.

[53:25] Jessica: Oh, my oh, my.

[53:27] Meg: So that's what my mother wore.

[53:29] Jessica: And they got in and then what happened?

[53:32] Meg: Good going, Bevy. That's kind of my father's whole thing is I. We went to Studio 54 and we got in and that's kind of all I know.

[53:43] Jessica: And.

[53:44] Meg: But he says it. The details of that.

[53:46] Jessica: Okay, good. Well, good for her that she got in. She's, you know, hot.

[53:51] Meg: Yeah. She got him into Studio 54.

[53:53] Jessica: Well, good. Good on Bebby. So I think I know what our tie in is.

[54:01] Meg: Awesome.

[54:02] Jessica: In your story, what happened on 54th Street.

[54:06] Meg: Yes. In Manhattan, on 54th Street, Peter Stein taught lifeguard classes.

[54:13] Jessica: There you go.

[54:14] Meg: So when you said office building, right. How are you going to learn?

[54:19] Jessica: Not useful.

[54:20] Meg: Whatever.

[54:20] Jessica: But when you said that, I was like. I was so excited. I was like, we have a tie in. We've been stumped so many times. So, yes, that's our 54th street as our tie in today.

[54:32] Meg: It is an interesting street in this city. It's got its own. I don't know, It's. It's a crazy little place.

[54:38] Jessica: Funny enough, my dear friend David from Fleming grew up right near there. And their apartment looked out onto 54th Street. They were right near. I guess they were right near Carnegie Hall. His mom was a. Mom was an opera teacher, a singing teacher.

[54:58] Meg: There you go.

[54:59] Jessica: And opera district. There you go. 54th Street. Ta da.