[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we.

[00:29] Meg: Podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines, and.

[00:34] Jessica: I do pop culture. So, Meg, a couple weeks ago, you presented five facts about New York. The more we know, the more we know. But in that case, it was the more you knew.

[00:48] Meg: Yes.

[00:49] Jessica: And you educated me. So turnaround is fair play. And today, I'm going to supply you with four. Five fun facts that are the more I know and the more you will know very shortly.

[01:01] Meg: I'm so excited.

[01:03] Jessica: Yay. So I tried to think of things that would be very you. Oh. Ooh.

[01:08] Meg: Taylor made.

[01:09] Jessica: Because as we've spoken about many times on this podcast, we really put our stories together with one another as our intended audience. Yes. Like what will amuse my friend? So, is Christmas time?

[01:23] Meg: Yeah.

[01:23] Jessica: Yeah. One of the things that I found this out a while ago because I think it was two Christmases ago. I was watching stuff on. On prime, and it was all of these British, like, Victorian era shorts. You know, they're like half an hour, you know, kind of like episodes that were ghost stories. Christmas ghost stories. And obviously, we all know about A Christmas Carol. And I found out that ghost stories are a very common part of Christmas in England and in the UK generally.

[01:59] Meg: I did not know that.

[02:00] Jessica: Well, you're gonna love. Why? Because they have never really, as we all know, sort of gotten rid of their pagan roots. And so it is in midwinter that the veil between the living and the dead is at its thinnest. I know you love a witchy, witchy, witchy poo little moment. I know you love the supernatural. I know you like this. So I figured this is for you.

[02:28] Meg: Ah, I cannot wait.

[02:31] Jessica: Do, do, do, do. Okay, so I have a little caveat, which is they're not all ghost stories, but we're gonna start with the ghost stories. Okay.

[02:45] Meg: Awesome. What a wonderful thing. And a wintry, wintry evening.

[02:49] Jessica: A wintry, wintry evening. And the other thing that I neglected to say about this pagan belief is that not only is it the thinnest veil on midwinter, but it is also when the spirits are allowed to roam.

[03:07] Meg: Who gives them authority?

[03:10] Jessica: The spirit world.

[03:12] Meg: Okay.

[03:13] Jessica: I don't know the laws of nature.

[03:16] Meg: Laws of nature. Okay, I like that.

[03:18] Jessica: Nature. These are all obviously New York stories, but they are not contemporary New York stories, because otherwise, you know, where's the good fun in the long dead? If it's a current story, then it's just sad. So we're gonna deal with the long dead.

[03:36] Meg: Okay.

[03:37] Jessica: And also, because you're a theater person, my first story brings in, I think, a few of your favorite. Oh, my God, How Sound of Music. A few of your favorite things. So the Palace Theater. Yes, still around in Times Square, hosted many, many different kinds of entertainments, as all of the theaters did in the theater district at the turn of the century, vaudeville and variety shows were very, very big. And at a variety show, you would have everything from comedy to acrobatics to song to girlie shows, you name it. At the Palace Theater during this time, acrobat Louis Vuitton Bosselina had a fall. He was an acrobat, part of the. The forecasting pearls. And he, unfortunately, in the midst of his aerial act, cast himself from the heavens to the earth, AKA the stage. He fell?

[04:48] Meg: No.

[04:48] Jessica: And he broke every bone in his body, literally.

[04:53] Meg: Oh, that's horrible.

[04:55] Jessica: And people believed that he was dead. When they came back to the theater a few years later and saw him performing, they were convinced he was a ghost. But he was not, and he lived until 1963.

[05:10] Meg: Huh.

[05:11] Jessica: Okay, so that's interesting. That's kind of spooky for people who didn't know, but after 1963, there were sightings of Louis Bosolina at the Palace Theater with great frequency.

[05:26] Meg: It's like he had nine lives or something.

[05:28] Jessica: Well, he had nine lives and then the afterlife. The story is that a stagehand walked into the theater and you know, you know what the ghost light is in the theater?

[05:41] Meg: I do.

[05:41] Jessica: Would you like to describe what that is?

[05:43] Meg: It's a bulb on a stand.

[05:47] Jessica: You make it sound so magical. So what purpose does it serve?

[05:51] Meg: You know, I'm not entirely sure. Isn't that funny? I really actually don't know what the purpose of it is.

[05:57] Jessica: Well, while there are conflicting stories, one of them is that it's there to keep the ghosts away.

[06:04] Meg: Oh, wow.

[06:05] Jessica: It's to keep the theater out of total darkness. Well, that didn't work at the Palace Theater because the stagehand comes in and sees a man spinning in the air above the ghost light before screaming, falling, and disappearing.

[06:22] Meg: Oh, my God. So he saw a reenactment of the Non Fatal fall.

[06:28] Jessica: Exactly.

[06:30] Meg: Bizarre.

[06:31] Jessica: A year later, the same stagehand walked into the exact same scene, saw the exact same thing.

[06:39] Meg: The same stagehand?

[06:42] Jessica: Yes, but this time he says that he noticed what the man was wearing. Because I Guess the shock had worn off a little bit. Not for me. I would still be peeing in my pants. But he says the man was wearing an all white outfit. And I'm like, well, he was a ghost. Of course he was wearing an all white outfit. But we're not going to quibble. And this all white outfit looked like a circus outfit. He then started to do some research, and he uncovered the story of Louis Boslina's act that went wrong.

[07:13] Meg: Oh, so that he had known about it before.

[07:16] Jessica: He did not. He then researched it and was like, what the hell am I seeing here? And he recognized Louis Bosalina as the man who was spinning above the ghost light from the forecasting pearls, who flew through the air before falling 18ft onto the stage. However, after doing some research and then speaking to the other stagehands at the palace, it was discovered by him that the first time Louis Boslina was seen spinning above the ghost light, because this was not the first time, was the day that he died in 1963. Hmm.

[07:58] Meg: So that's three sightings.

[08:00] Jessica: Well, two sightings from this guy. And apparently he is the theater's ghost. This guy just didn't know. And a lot of the theaters in Times Square have ghosts, and there are ghost tours. And if you are interested in this kind of paranormal stuff, there are so many stories, and you get to go backstage with these tours and see where these things happened. I mean, this is so up your alley. And learn about the deaths and the ghosts of the theater, of the Broadway theater.

[08:33] Meg: Well, I mean, of course, you know, you've got a building that exists for hundreds of years. You've got to have some ghosts. It's interesting that it's an acrobat and that he keeps coming back. I guess my question would be why? What is unfinished?

[08:49] Jessica: Indeed, what is unfinished? Maybe he's so mad that he screwed up. Maybe he just keeps trying to get the trick right.

[08:58] Meg: And it is strange that he would fall and not die. And that's what he keeps reenacting the time that he didn't die.

[09:06] Jessica: Because think all that time that he had to, like, obsess over the fact that he didn't get it right. And he. He can't go back in time. But maybe as a ghost, he can be like this. I have eternity to get it right. Do, do, do, do. Now, Meg, you and I have gone to many a drinking establishment in this city. Do you have any standout favorites of.

[09:36] Meg: Bars in the city?

[09:38] Jessica: I mean, there's so many. How do you pick your Favorite.

[09:40] Meg: Oh, I love Dear Irving.

[09:46] Jessica: I assume that's on Irving Place.

[09:47] Meg: It is on Irving Place. You would love it. I don't think you and I have been there together. We have not. It's super cool. You go. It would be a great place to have an affair. It's very dark and it's art deco and you ring a little bell next to your table. And that's how they know to come and take your order, because otherwise they're just not going to bother you.

[10:12] Jessica: So that is perfect for a clandestine arrangement.

[10:16] Meg: Yeah, my friend Simon took me there for my birthday. Oh, how lovely. Sweet.

[10:23] Jessica: I assume that you did not have nefarious affair type behavior with him.

[10:29] Meg: No, no. He is just a very, very good friend who listens to the pod. Hello, Simon.

[10:34] Jessica: Hello, Simon. Good bar chooser.

[10:37] Meg: This is a very special place, Dear Irving.

[10:40] Jessica: Well, my real go to. If I have to, it's like, you know, wake me up in the middle of the night. What's your favorite is Bemelman's.

[10:47] Meg: Ah, of course.

[10:48] Jessica: But my second runner up is the bar that I'm going to talk to you about. And it has a fascinating history.

[10:55] Meg: Very excited.

[10:56] Jessica: And it is the Ear in.

[10:58] Meg: Oh, I love the Ear because there are all those theaters around there in Soho, and so we would always go to the Ear after a show.

[11:08] Jessica: It's a great place.

[11:09] Meg: It's a pirate place.

[11:11] Jessica: I knew obviously that it's been around since time began. And I knew that when it had originally opened that the Hudson river came all the way up to the bar. Ah, you didn't know that?

[11:24] Meg: I did not.

[11:25] Jessica: You know those big metal sort of giant pylons that are outside, those are to rig the ships up.

[11:33] Meg: So cool.

[11:34] Jessica: Yeah. So it was so.

[11:35] Meg: It's sort of like Venice. You could just.

[11:37] Jessica: If it was a merchant.

[11:38] Meg: Your boat up to the Ear end.

[11:40] Jessica: Yes, you could. I think it's more for like, like moderately sized merchant vessels, but there, that's how close it was to the water. And we've talked on this podcast many times about the. The changing shape of Manhattan. And so the landfill that now, you know, separates the Ear in from the Hudson is about two avenues worth. Get this. I was stunned. So the building was originally owned by James Brown. Now not kiss myself not that James Brown. Nay, nay. It was constructed in 1770. It was for James Brown, who was an African aide to George Washington. And in fact, in the famous painting of George Washington crossing the Delaware, James Brown is in the forepart of the ship rowing.

[12:37] Meg: And so you're saying he owned it.

[12:39] Jessica: He owned that building. So in 1770, that was built for him. He was an aide to Washington during the Revolutionary War, Obviously a free man with social standing. After the war, he had a lucrative career in tobacco, and it gave him enough money to have a townhouse in this fashionable part of the city. In fact, just down the street from where George Washington himself had his estate, Richmond Hill. And that Richmond Hill estate later housed John Adams and Aaron Burr.

[13:14] Meg: Where is Richmond Hill?

[13:15] Jessica: It's so. It's southeast. I don't know why this was in the description, but it caught my eye. It says southeast from the intersection of Varick and Charlton. Yeah, right. And which I didn't real. Like, I used to work in that building on Varick. And I was like, that's how close the ear was to where I was. Why wasn't I there every day?

[13:33] Meg: Oh, God. Yeah. I would say in the 90s, I was there two or three times a week.

[13:39] Jessica: Good on you. Well done.

[13:41] Meg: It's an interesting neighborhood, though.

[13:42] Jessica: It is, actually. That was also where a friend, like a childhood friend, but not a close friend, but a very close friend of another childhood friend, owned a restaurant called Lazou on 11th. Do you remember Lazou? That was like a very hip, happening place.

[13:58] Meg: And there's that club that they used in After Hours.

[14:01] Jessica: I love that. After, like, we cannot. I know. It's like. So the Hudson river, just to really bring this home, was 5ft from the entrance to this house.

[14:11] Meg: Wild. That would make me a little nervous.

[14:13] Jessica: But new piers were built, the landfill came in, and it facilitated the constant shipping traffic that was just building the city. From 1770 on, you know, the trade was just booming and booming. So his house got farther and farther away from the water. When he died, the building started its slow creep into being a source of entertainment and booze. And to your point, yes, there were pirates, because anyone who was coming in off the water, anyone would go to this drinking establishment. So you had every kind of person imaginable, the kind of people who would hang out on the waterfront. That is, in the mid-1800s, Thomas Cook, the owner of the building at that time, sold beer and whiskey out of it to more and more sailors. By the turn of the century, it became a restaurant. And a dining room was constructed where the backyard and the outhouses were. So if you go there now, you were in the toilet.

[15:15] Meg: That's wild.

[15:16] Jessica: Prohibition never slowed them down. They just became a speakeasy. Interestingly, even though it was a lady free clubhouse for men, it was still upstairs A brothel. It was also a boarding house and to your point, a smuggler's den. And so now it is. There's so much ephemera in there that it is a museum, basically. It is so cool to New York and that time period. Yes. You were going to say something.

[15:48] Meg: No, just the inside of that place is very cool and they're very low ceilings and there's just lots of like. Mercantile. Is that the right word? Yeah, ephemera. Very cool.

[15:59] Jessica: And by the way, it never the place during all that time. It never had a name. It didn't need to. It was the spot. It had a green door. And so sometimes people called it the green door, but you didn't even have to call it anything. But in the 1970s, when it was purchased by Martin Sheridan and Richard Ripley Haman, they called it the Ear in to get around the landmark commission because they couldn't turn it into a bar. Whatever was going on with the landmark commission at the time, it couldn't be a bar. So they got a bar sign and blacked out the loops of the B, which is why you now see it as it is. That's the same sign since the 70s. That's why it reads as ear in weird. Indeed. Back to the ghosts. Who are the ghosts? There are friendly ghosts, which is good because we don't want pirate ghosts that are going to terrorize people. Apparently this guy now, his name is Mickey the Ghost. Yes. Okay.

[17:05] Meg: Mickey the Ghost.

[17:06] Jessica: Mickey the Ghost. He has been waiting for 200 years for. For his clipper to arrive. Now, how do we know that? Apparently the people who have worked at the Ear in for decades and decades are all very familiar with him and a few other ghosts that hang around the Ear. So I think that now that it is winter and we are around the thinning of the veil, maybe you and I need to go back to the Ear and go together and hang out.

[17:37] Meg: And we can ask about Misty, you.

[17:39] Jessica: Know, what's the word I'm looking for? You know, like, it makes like a click, click, click, click, click noise if it gets near a ghost, you know, in the movies.

[17:45] Meg: Yeah, I want that.

[17:47] Jessica: I want a. I want a Ghostbuster thingy.

[17:49] Meg: Geiger counter.

[17:51] Jessica: Okay.

[17:52] Meg: Did I make that up?

[17:54] Jessica: That's a thing. I don't know if it's the thing.

[17:57] Meg: Yes, I think they would have it in Silkwood.

[18:00] Jessica: Well, that's. Yeah, that's not good. No, that's not good. No one wants to be radioactive.

[18:05] Meg: Cher was on Saturday Night Live this week.

[18:07] Jessica: I did. I saw the Promo where she smacked Bowen Yang in the face and told him to get a snap out of it. And that. That really entertained me.

[18:14] Meg: She performed on Saturday Night Live, and it was amazing. She was incredible. She's 80 years old. And now her song, her Christmas song. She's got a Christmas album. I cannot get it out of my head.

[18:25] Jessica: She's 80.

[18:26] Meg: She is 80 years old.

[18:28] Jessica: Get a look at her.

[18:29] Meg: And the reason why I'm talking about Cher is that she was in the movie Silkwood. So this is just a tangent, but yes, go share.

[18:36] Jessica: Damn, she looks fucking amazing.

[18:39] Meg: She does look amazing. Oh, my God. And Jessica, her backup dancers, having so much fun. And it just made me like, I want to take a class. I wonder if there's a class in background dancing.

[18:50] Jessica: Oh, my God. If there is, we're going. Do you think, like, Broadway Steps or whatever has that.

[18:58] Meg: See, it's very specific. I want to be the background dancer for, like, Cher. Cher. This is a very niche thing.

[19:06] Jessica: Okay, well, look, you and I have gotten in over our many years together. We've gotten up to some ridiculous capers together. I'm all in on being trained to be a backup dancer. If you want to be like, I'm here to move for Cher.

[19:21] Meg: I know. I'm clay. Mold me.

[19:25] Jessica: I'm sure she'd be grateful. You have done a lot of good work getting me to warm to pigeons.

[19:40] Meg: Yes. You love them. Really good work.

[19:43] Jessica: I've come to truly appreciate them. I don't want them near me in real life, but in. In photos, in videos. Like, the concept of the pigeon is really. I'm warming to it. And I've also had to admit that, you know, some of my relationship tendencies. I'm a bit of a pigeon, and I've. I've embraced this. I. I don't want to be approached too fervently, you know, like, if you go up to a pigeon, it's like, ah. Like flies away. It's like, ah, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off. But if you just, like, hang out, you're like, I have some bird seed. The pigeon will be like, oh, hey, how you doing? Can I. Can I see the seed that you have?

[20:25] Meg: So you think of yourself as a patient.

[20:27] Jessica: I just don't like a lot of, like, sudden moves and too much, too much in your face. Like, you know, I want to hang out with, like, let me come to you.

[20:37] Meg: Okay.

[20:38] Jessica: Okay. So it's an I look. These are big. These are big revelations about myself that I've been having lately. And I'm. I'M going out on a limb and sharing it with the group. Okay.

[20:48] Meg: Indeed.

[20:49] Jessica: So part of why I've gotten very interested in pigeons. And in fact, there's a T shirt that I really want to get. It's a, like, it looks sort of vintagey. It's a big silk screen of a pigeon, and underneath it says, it's all coo You.

[21:04] Meg: This is such a turnaround. I. I just would never have thought this of you.

[21:08] Jessica: I'm saying, look, you. You laid the groundwork. I know that my turnaround was swift.

[21:14] Meg: But, yeah, I feel like it was not that long ago. I feel like we started. I started sending you pigeon friendly material like maybe three months ago.

[21:24] Jessica: I'm saying that you did good work. Don't underestimate your powers of influence.

[21:32] Meg: I feel like I need to put that on my achievement list for the year.

[21:35] Jessica: Put it on your LinkedIn, for God's sakes. Convince Jessica to deal with pigeons. To that end, I was in my living room, which has a very large window. I'm on a high floor, so you can see the tops of other buildings. My friend says to me, look at that. Look at that bird. And I'm like, it's just a pigeon. What are you so excited about? And he's like, look again. And I'm like, huh? And I realize the scale is off. And I'm like, that's a very big pigeon. That's like the size of. It's like 2ft tall. There's no pit. So it was a falcon with pigeon markings. And I was like, that's just crazy. And what did a pigeon and a falcon get up to? Like, was there some weird cross breeding? Go. Nonetheless, it was a falcon. Easily visible. Yes, easily visible. Sitting on the railing of my right. Across the way neighbor's apartment. So I got this good look at this gigantic bird.

[22:43] Meg: That's wild.

[22:44] Jessica: Yes.

[22:45] Meg: Isn't there a famous falcon?

[22:47] Jessica: He died. Flaco. Flaco. Yeah. Flacco.

[22:50] Meg: Are we sure he died?

[22:51] Jessica: Oh, yes. There was a whole thing about it. Yeah. People were outraged. They were looking to blame. I think he died of all that. I don't know. But he gone. Okay. But here's.

[23:02] Meg: I thought there's a new one.

[23:03] Jessica: Well, there are falcons all over.

[23:05] Meg: I didn't know that.

[23:06] Jessica: I think he was just sort of, like, weirdly domesticated because he perched on the facade of a building on fifth Avenue. So people got very attached to him to that point. And I know that your mom is a bird watcher, so here's a little factoid that I Found out. Did you know that in Central park, and we were talking about Central park and falcons and pigeons. There are 275 species of birds in Central park alone.

[23:33] Meg: That's wonderful. Yes, I'm sure she does know that.

[23:37] Jessica: Out of approximately 800 known North American bird species, 275 show up in the park. And there are up to 100 species a day easily seen in the park during spring migration.

[23:55] Meg: That's wonderful.

[23:56] Jessica: Indeed. Not a ghost real. Unless they're ghost pigeons. I don't know how I'd feel about ghost. How do we feel about a ghost pigeon?

[24:06] Meg: I don't know.

[24:07] Jessica: At least they won't poop on you.

[24:09] Meg: Or it's even scarier.

[24:12] Jessica: Poop. Ecto poop. Oh, my God. If you hang out or have ever hung out on St. Mark's Place, you know that there is a particular building that was used for the COVID of Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti.

[24:37] Meg: You would have to know something about Led Zeppelin, which I do not, but I will take your word for it. What building is it?

[24:44] Jessica: You'll know it immediately when you see a photograph of it without it being the COVID Anyway, so there are a couple of places around the city that are known as being locations for famous album covers. True. And I was thinking about that partly because I was watching a video in my YouTube rabbit hole yesterday night. It was from 1969. I think it was the first time that Led Zeppelin was on TV and Robert Plant was introducing everybody and they. I, I couldn't believe he was 20. Like, you look at these guys and you're like, you had a lot of balls. You had nerve. Like, damn. So I was thinking about Led Zeppelin. I was thinking about that album. I was like, you know what? There's another album cover that people are obsessed with. It's been reproduced in movies. Even if it's not about this particular artist. It's such an iconic photo. So I'm just going to let you know where the COVID of the Free Wheeling Bob Dylan album was shot.

[25:47] Meg: I knew you were going to say the Bob Dylan album.

[25:51] Jessica: Is it because you're psychic?

[25:53] Meg: You're talking about like Soho, Cobblestone Street. Right.

[25:57] Jessica: Actually in Greenwich Village, it was West. It's west fourth Street. It's right near west fourth, which is where he lived. It is actually Jones street near West 4th. So that beautiful shot which was replicated in Vanilla sky, if you recall that. And of course reproduced again in the recent Bob Dylan. These biopics, I've started to just be kind of like, okay, so we're gonna watch you cosplay someone for two hours. And, like, you're doing a great job with the cosplay, but can I watch a documentary about this instead? And we're done. The photographer is Don Hunstein. It's Bob Dylan with his girlfriend of the time, Susie Rotolo, who is very private. And they didn't last because she was like, you were a rock star, and I can't deal with this. So off she went. It was taken in 1963, the same year that Mr. Belasco plummet. No, he didn't plummet to his death. That he died and then reappeared, plummeting to his death again and again at the Palace Theater. So 1963. Big year on this podcast today. 1963 on a snowy, wet day. And that candid shot and why people love it so much and why they're so obsessed, is that most album covers prior to this one were all really carefully done studio shots or artwork. This was the first candid shot that was used as the COVID of an album. Snapshot Jones and Westforth. So one of the things that you love more than anything is murder. Yeah, you love murder. And you've talked about a whole lot of murders on this podcast, I have to say. Like, Moita. There's a whole lot of moitas on this podcast. And what I thought you might like to know about this is another fun fact. We know what the very first recorded murder in New York City was. Now, it's not the first murder ever, but it's the first murder that we have the whole trial. We have the transcript, we have the case, we have the newspaper, everything. Everything. This was the first murder. And do you know which one it was? Because it's the sort of thing I think you might know.

[28:37] Meg: I'm just thinking of Sanford White. But no, that was a very famous case.

[28:42] Jessica: That was like, 1902 or something like.

[28:45] Meg: So we're going way back.

[28:46] Jessica: We're going way back. Okay, so the murder took place in 1799, and the murder victim was Elma Sands. Her real name was Guillelma or Guillma. She was found in what is currently known as soho at the bottom of a well.

[29:09] Meg: Oh, I do know about her.

[29:12] Jessica: Her boyfriend, Levi Weeks, was accused of the murder. Yes. The trial featured his defense attorneys. Ready for it? Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr.

[29:27] Meg: Oh, that's exciting.

[29:28] Jessica: Yes. And it was the first US Murder trial with full transcripts, making it a legal precedent.

[29:35] Meg: Very cool. I think she was pregnant. That's my memory. Is that they thought that he killed her because she was pregnant.

[29:41] Jessica: And it would make sense because he could afford this really high profile defense team. So maybe she needed to not be pregnant because he had a life where she did not belong.

[29:54] Meg: Yeah, exactly.

[29:55] Jessica: So anyway, the murder took place in 1799 and the trial took place in 1800. Yes. You're making a gesture of, huh?

[30:03] Meg: I think you can visit the well.

[30:05] Jessica: The spot where the well is. There's a plaque on the ground where the well was. So it was known as the Manhattan well murder case. And the well at the time was in Lispinard's Meadow, which is current day soho. He was the only suspect. I've already described several times why it was so notable. And his defense team, unbelievably notable.

[30:31] Meg: Superstars.

[30:31] Jessica: Superstar. And Henry Brockholst Livingston was. The other, was the third attorney. They successfully argued that the evidence would not hold up. It was circumstantial. There was nothing that tied him directly to the murder or to the body. And anyone in Lisbenard's Meadow could have been responsible for the crime. Levi Weeks was acquitted, but pretty bad publicity for Levi Weeks. Okay, and so he fled town afterwards.

[31:07] Meg: Where'd he go?

[31:08] Jessica: I do not know. But he left New York entirely. Could you imagine after that being your trial, being like, no, no, I'm gonna hang out at the Ear Inn. It sounds like a great idea. Public opinion was always against him and it remained against him even though Hamilton and Burr won the case. And for anyone who wants to know about it, there is a book that was written about it called the Girl from Greenwich Street. Got very good reviews. And it is based on the true story, using the transcripts to write the tale. It's a novel, but there you go. You love current murder. I love old murder. I think I've spoken on the podcast about the case of Helen Jewett. Another really fascinating murder that was. I think it was mid 19th century, maybe 1830s. I can't remember if she was a prostitute or was accused of being a prostitute, but she was savagely murdered in a Jack the Ripper kind of style.

[32:13] Meg: This is coming back to me.

[32:14] Jessica: And the.

[32:15] Meg: She was found by the river, right? Yes, yes.

[32:19] Jessica: And of the Easter. And the case was. I believe the case was never solved. There were. There's a variety of suspects. Her stature in the community made it fascinating to people, but it was also like, you know, she's not a priority person. But there are fabulous books about it. In fact, there's one on the bookshelf right behind you. But Helen Jewett, the murder and the Mystery of Helen Jewett is another one that's really worth looking into.

[32:46] Meg: Do. Is it my imagination or were your stories all kind of winter themed or was I just like had winter on the brain. So I just pictured myself going to the ear in in winter and Helen Jewett's body being cold outside. I don't know.

[33:10] Jessica: I think that you very cinematically placed them. The Bob Dylan thing is winter because they're in slush.

[33:20] Meg: There you go.

[33:20] Jessica: But what I was really talking about that I think made you feel that it was winter was that I said these are the reason that Christmas ghost stories are a thing in England that, you know, the veil is thin at that time. So maybe the spookiness just sort of got you into the winter mindset.

[33:38] Meg: Thank you for story time. I like this.

[33:42] Jessica: Well, I hoped it was also five interesting facts. It wasn't factoids, but it was five interesting tales that I think could, you know, be really fun for you or others to research more. They're all rabbit hole stories.

[33:58] Meg: That's what I love is just. It's the beginning of a larger thing that people can research.

[34:05] Jessica: Absolutely.