Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

Jessica: And I'm Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we.

Meg: Podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines and.

Jessica: I do pop culture.

Meg: I mean, do we talk about Rob Reiner?

Jessica: Yeah, we do. We have to. I mean, you have to. There are too many things that have been completely devastating and weird and ignoring. It just seems weirder now.

Meg: This episode will drop after the new year. It will be our first episode in January, so we will probably, you know, back to the future or whatever, know a lot more about the situation. But right now, as we are sitting here, December, whatever it is, December 18th, it is.

Jessica: Yes, it is. Whoa.

Meg: Crazy town. And I knew that.

Jessica: Well, I'm. I'm impressed.

Meg: We know that it horribly tragic. Almost definitely the sun, just horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible.

Jessica: There are things that happen, like people, you know, toss around a lot of hyperbolic words when they're trying to describe something that's messed up. And one of them is unthinkable, but it usually is thinkable. This one is unthinkable, except by you. You kind of ID'd it. Tell me. Cause right before we started the cast, you surprised me by telling me what your reaction was.

Meg: When I heard that it was a 78 year old man and a 68 year old woman, I looked up their ages. Exactly their ages. So it must be them. So was it a murder suicide? Knowing them? No, probably not. So then it most definitely would be a family member due to the stabbing element.

Jessica: Well, and also when I said, you know, how do you know it's not a break in? And you, I think, quite wisely said, it's Brentwood.

Meg: Yeah. Gated.

Jessica: Yeah.

Meg: So it's personal. Something it was not, you know, someone walking down the street going, ooh, I think I'll rob that place and let me stab the people while I'm there.

Jessica: And you also said something that you and I have talked about, not on the podcast, a few times. You were talking about how boys or young men in our culture right now are adrift. And I was wondering if you had anything else that you wanted to say about that.

Meg: Ooh, we should talk about it more in depth. There's that man who wrote the book that everyone is reading right now, and I can't think of his name. Who have we even talked about on the podcast yet? I was talking about it at a party the other day who says, that the boys are all in crisis and really guess whose job it is to fix it?

Jessica: Who's.

Meg: The girls?

Jessica: Shut up.

Meg: Yeah, the boys are having. You know, they feel very lonely and unmanly, and it's our job to make them feel like men.

Jessica: Am I on?

Meg: Well, it's a perspective, but not my perspective, but a perspective.

Jessica: What is it? Andrew Tate's perspective. Like, what the ****? That's absolutely unacceptable.

Meg: He's not as bad as Andrew Tate. But then there's also the Andrew Tate's. Right. It's out there in the world.

Jessica: Well, their guidance is. Is leading them down an angry path. Although I do think, you know, and you and I talked about this already, that Nick Reiner, you know, you were like, yes, it's anger. It's this. It's also method. So, you know, the drugs are really at the root of this. Or maybe they're. Maybe they're the symptom. That's the thing about drugs. But it's. It is bizarre and unthinkable. And I was saying that when I got back from London Saturday night, I turned on my phone and gasped audibly because the first news that I saw was the shooting at Brown, where you went to school. And it just feels like a very, very grim and dark ending to 2025, which in some ways seems fitting. I don't know. How do you feel?

Meg: Yeah, lots of people are saying that right now, too. Let's. Let's move into 2026 and, you know, again, back to the Future. If you are listening to this right now, it is 2026, and I hope it's starting off very well for you. By the way, back to your idea or the thought about young men. I'm actually researching a story for next week that will drop next week that's about a young man, albeit in the 80s. But I think, yeah, there are a lot of parallels to what we're seeing right now.

Jessica: So a perennial problem, basically. Interesting. Well, it's a sad story, and I don't know, I'm glad that you suggested that we at least touch on it.

Meg: Rip Mom Rushell. My engagement question is, what is your fondest memory of Ed Koch?

Jessica: When we sang for him at Gracie Mansion in 1984. Was it.

Meg: I've got a picture of it.

Jessica: Yeah.

Meg: And we sang, I'm sure, something absurd.

Jessica: What did we sing? You know, I have a terrible memory. What did we sing? I'm amazed that I remember that we did it at all.

Meg: We sang New York, New York, if you can make it there.

Jessica: Well, that's a little on the nose.

Meg: It was very much on the nose. Do you remember his demeanor while we were singing?

Jessica: Sulking?

Meg: Yes.

Jessica: Completely disinterested. Like when my press people made me do this. Who are these schmucks in these outfits?

Meg: Get me out of here. We're like young girls singing to you. And he's not having a bad day for Ed that day.

Jessica: Yeah. And it's my favorite memory, obviously, because there's the personal element, but also it was sort of a seminal moment for me of like, no one cares. Whatever you're doing, no one cares.

Meg: I know, because Mrs. Roos had, like, you know, talked it up. Like, this is going to be such a big deal, girls. You're singing for the mayor. And then we got there and we were like, is he gonna hurt us?

Jessica: Yeah. He was, like, checking his watch, sharpening the ax, getting his vaudeville cane to get us off the stage. Yeah.

Meg: But I will definitely post that photo.

Jessica: Yeah. Because we're.

Meg: We're. We're standing kind of close to each other. And I are.

Jessica: Well, we in everything. Me.

Meg: Isn't that weird?

Jessica: We have been in it landed many years ago.

Meg: Someday we will want photographs of the two of us at this age standing.

Jessica: Close to each other. Future us. It was like Bill and Ted's, like, future us was there. Like, stand next to each other. Like, we're just press AIDS so we.

Meg: Can have Meg and Jessica next to each other. Trust me, all will be made.

Jessica: We want that high soprano and that low alto next to each other, because that makes sense. That's a perfect idea.

Meg: My sources are the gods of New York. This book I keep talking about by Jonathan Mahler, which has, and I think you will appreciate this. An index. Oh, yes.

Jessica: Oh, boy.

Meg: So.

Jessica: Ugh.

Meg: The joys of an index.

Jessica: You know, and just as a quick aside, if anyone listening has ever made an index, and I have been involved in making indices. That's right. I used the right word indices. It is one of the hardest jobs. It is grueling, and it pays 9 cents. So anyone who's an indexer, good on you.

Meg: Huge appreciation coming from here. And New York Times is my other source. On August 9, 1987, Mayor Ed Koch was on his way to the Sheridan Hotel on 53rd and 7th. He was speaking at a forum about AIDS and was really nervous that Larry Kramer would be there.

Jessica: Oh, no.

Meg: His nemesis, Larry Kramer, the playwright had formed the AIDS Coalition to unleash power. ACT up, which was and still is a political action group that aims to force the government, pharmaceutical and insurance industries and religious institutions to respond to the AIDS crisis. Their tactics were not subtle. And I will mention callbacks to a couple of our episodes. Episode 8, the Queen of Mean and Silence Equals death. And episode 15, Joe's Manic Monday and Ed Hides in Plain Sight. In addition to demonstrations and dramatic protests like die INS, the organization encouraged what they called ZAPs. ZAPs targeted specific individuals. They would bombard a person in power with postcards, letters, and lots and lots of faxes.

Jessica: Faxes, Faxes. Kind of love. Can I. Can I interrupt you for one second? What's a die in?

Meg: Oh, I thought we talked about this on the podcast. It's at a protest. Everybody pretends to be dead. So you're there with your signs one moment, and then everybody is just on the ground completely like, you know, simulating death. And it's a dramatic image. Indeed.

Jessica: I just wanted to make sure everyone could visualize that as part of the unsubtle yet alarming.

Meg: Thank you for that set of tactics for that follow up question.

Jessica: So they're zapping people with faxes. Postcards.

Meg: Yeah. Can you imagine being in an office or your home even if you were lucky enough to have a fax machine at home? Ooh la la. And just the papers come and come and come and come and you know. Do you remember the. Oh, yeah, faxes. It would drive you crazy.

Jessica: You'd have to leave.

Meg: Yeah. Or that.

Jessica: Or wait. This is crazy. Unplug it.

Meg: But then you're not getting faxes. That's like turning your phone off.

Jessica: I know. It's a tough. It's a dilemma.

Meg: Yeah. They picketed their home, distributed fact sheets, invaded their office, and made outraged and sometimes outrageous phone calls. That's a quote from their website. Outraged and sometimes outrageous phone calls. This is another quote. The more zappers who zap the zappy, the better the zap.

Jessica: All right, that's marketing.

Meg: Ed Koch was at the top of Larry Kramer's zap list. As mayor, he had the power and resources to address the AIDS epidemic in New York, and frankly, the responsibility, as New York was the epicenter of the growing disease. But his response was flaccid at best. Early in his political career, Koch had been much more outspoken in his support of gay rights. In 1978, he signed an executive order, this is right after he became mayor, banning discrimination in hiring and housing on the basis of sexual preference. All right. But when AIDS began to surface, by 1981, he was very concerned with the city's budget and didn't seem to Want to know the extent of the extremely expensive health care crisis coming his way? Half the country's cases were in New York in 1983.

Jessica: Oh, my God.

Meg: But leaders of the grassroots AIDS movement couldn't get a meeting with Koch. Larry Kramer accosted Koch at The Odeon, yelling, 18 of my friends had died and you haven't given me an appointment. Larry had to be dragged away at the Odeon by five security guards.

Jessica: I like that it took five, because Larry Kramer's, he was a little guy.

Meg: So he was fighting mad, very angry. But by 1986, Larry Kramer had another card up his sleeve. He knew all about Richard Nathan. When Koch was running for mayor back in 1977, he was romantically involved with a health care consultant in his 30s who was working on his campaign, Richard Nathan. While Ed squired Bess Meyerson around town saying, wouldn't she make a great first lady? He was actually in a loving gay partnership. Richard enjoyed being courted by a powerful man 20 years older. The secret rendezvous and subtle glances when they were in public. He also assumed he would have a role in Koch's administration. But after Koch won, Koch not only broke up with Nathan, but encouraged him to leave New York.

Jessica: God, like really far away.

Meg: California, far.

Jessica: Jesus, what does encourage mean in this scenario?

Meg: Leave town, dude.

Jessica: Oh, like. Or there will be consequences that we won't speak of right now.

Meg: I mean, I don't know how threatening it got, but there's no place for you in New York anymore. In 1986, who should Richard Nathan run into at an AIDS fundraiser in la, but Larry Kramer.

Jessica: Well played, Larry.

Meg: At a follow up dinner, Richard told Larry all about his romantic relationship with Koch and that the transition team had a health care post ready for him in the new administration. But Koch said that wasn't a good idea and shuttled him out of the city. Now, all that aside, Richard was still fond of his ex and did not want to go public. He was woefully naive to think Larry Kramer would keep what he told him in confidence. Larry started passing out Richard's phone number and address to reporters and saying about Koch in interviews, we know he's gay. I personally know his ex boyfriends. He doxed him.

Jessica: He totally doxed him.

Meg: Now Koch and his new health commissioner, Dr. Stephen Joseph, were trying to move more aggressively against AIDS. But they kept running up against Koch's allies like the archdiocese and his police commissioner. Whatever he did in, you know, response to the AIDS crisis was not enough for Larry Kramer, who was hell bent on outing him and on August 9, 1987, Koch was trying to prepare himself for his next zap. Larry didn't show at that AIDS forum at the Sheridan, but as Koch drove away from the event, he told his driver to go straight to Lenox Hill Hospital. I think I'm having a stroke. And he was. His doctor would later tell the press that he suffered a, quote, tiny, trivial stroke neurologically equivalent to breaking his toe. His brain is healthy. He is healthy.

Jessica: Oh, my God. Oh my God.

Meg: One of his doctors said he had the brain of a 28 year old, for ****'* sake. In the meantime, Rudy Giuliani had been trying steadily to raise his profile as the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York since 1983. He had already gone after organized crime and Insider Trading. In 1987, he was interested in going after alleged corruption in Ed Koch's administration. I mean, no wonder Ed Koch had a stroke. While looking into Bess Meyerson's misdeeds. Callback Episode 41 Bessie Bessie and Rock's True Fairy oh my God. The SDNY spoke to Herb Rickman, Koch's aide. Herb knew everything. He had set up Koch on discreet dates in his Herbs Park Avenue apartment.

Jessica: No.

Meg: One of Giuliani's agents, Tony Lombardi, wanted to know more about Richard Nathan's twelve thousand eight hundred dollar health care consulting contract with the city from back in 1977. Now that's not a lot of money, people. No, but they're like, hmm, we know his name, we know the rumors, we know he was paid by the city. Maybe we can make some sort of corruption connection. And this guy Tony Lombardi, who was working for Giuliani, he wanted to know much, much, much, much, much, much more about Nathan's personal relationship with Koch. Was that contract actually hush money? Oh, girl. Now, Larry Kramer told Lombardi he believed it was. So Larry Kramer gets basically in bed with Giuliani of all people.

Jessica: You know, fighting dirty. Makes strange bedfellows, doesn't it?

Meg: He believed Larry Kramer believed that Koch had bribed Nathan to keep quiet about their relationship. Under threat of subpoena, Nathan returned from California to discuss his actually very legitimate contract. I mean, he was a healthcare consultant. That's what he did for a living. And he. So much so that he wanted to have a job doing it in Koch's administration because he had been part of the whole campaign. So it's not like he, you know, had to.

Jessica: But how marvelous. How marvelous to be able to question him on the record.

Meg: Yeah, but guess what? He held his tongue about Koch's sex life. So he answered all the questions about the contract, was clearly qualified for the what he was paid to do, but did not speak a word about what nobody could actually verify except for him and Koch. Koch was terrified that all would be revealed. But since the contract was kosher, Giuliani had to drop the investigation and Koch wasn't outed after all. During his campaign for re election in 1989, Koch proclaimed in a radio interview, it happens that I'm heterosexual. Act UP responded with the chant, AIDS cares. Ineffectual. Thanks to Koch, the heterosexual.

Jessica: Oh my God. Well, Larry was a writer.

Meg: Later in life and out of office, Koch tried to date Richard Nathan died of AIDS in 1996. Oh my God. When asked in 2009 about his relationship to Nathan, Koch said, **** Nathan was a fine guy. We were friends. He wanted to be a commissioner in my administration. I said, sorry, we're picking the best. He got mad and left town.

Jessica: What a ****.

Meg: When asked if he was gay, Kot shot back, are you married? When was the last time you committed oral sex on your spouse? Don't answer that. It's no one's business.

Jessica: Pithy.

Meg: Many believed he never came out publicly because he didn't want to give Larry Kramer the satisfaction. And Larry outlived him by seven years.

Jessica: That's a lot of cat fighting going on between those two. Oh my God.

Meg: Again. Gods of New York by Jonathan Mahler is chock full of awesome stories about these crazy people.

Jessica: Power, corrupt. I. You know it. What's so interesting is that the way. And what a great story. But like, what did. I'm just curious, is there anything in Gods of New York that describes what Koch finally did do for the AIDS crisis?

Meg: Yes, and also there's been a lot of talk about it lately and there was a lot of talk about it in that article that came out in the Times that you talked about in. What was it, episode 15. Ed hides in plain Sight. He did try to do some things and like I was saying, he got the. The people who. Who pushed back were people who supported him politically. So he was, he was in a. He was not. No excuses, but he was in a quite a bind. But he was so slow to do it. If he had had a str. One argument is if he had had a stronger response right from the get go. And maybe he didn't have a stronger response right from the get go because he was scared, of course, about being outed.

Jessica: I mean, that's the other thing.

Meg: When you said outed, he would lose all political capital entirely.

Jessica: Yeah. No, no, exactly. And then he's. He's nothing. The. We've talked about this on the podcast before, but it just strikes me again in this story how people who are younger than us nowadays do not understand the terror of being outed. The absolute fricking terror. And that it really was like a death sentence. You wouldn't be able to work again. Your. Your friends or allies or people who you thought were supporters. And I don't even mean, like public people. I mean just the average, like, teacher at a school. You are officially ostracized.

Meg: You're cooked.

Jessica: You're done. And so the idea of being outed as a public figure must have. Well, it's enough to give you a stroke, right?

Meg: And he learned that lesson very early on. I can't remember the name of the man. Basically how he became mayor in 1977 was he got the backing of this guy who had a lot of pull. And that guy said, I will back you unless you're gay, and you better swear up, down, sideways that you are not, otherwise I'm out. And he did. He swore up, down, and sideways that he was not gay. And then he had to make sure that he wasn't. Wasn't after that. And as you spoken about before on the podcast, he didn't have a relationship, a partnership with anyone after that. Nope. Richard Nathan was his last, and he was very lonely. And he said that his. He never publicly came out, but he did say that his biggest failure was not having a. A partner.

Jessica: Partner. Very sad. Wow, that's a great story. So, Meg, you said something that made me laugh so hard before we started recording today. You reminded me that at one point I had made the bold and firm statement that I would never talk about rap on this podcast because I know nothing about it and no one wants to hear about it from me. Guess what? No way. But sort of tangentially. Okay, okay, okay. Because. Still not an expert in any remote.

Meg: Way, but, you know, we're students of the world. We're learning.

Jessica: Yes. You also, I think part of. Of growing into yourself is knowing where your aptitudes lie and where they don't.

Meg: But also not being limited, like, oh, that's not for you, so you're not supposed to know about that.

Jessica: Absolutely correct. You know, so I am going to talk about it, but from a little sideways entry point. So.

Meg: Lovely.

Jessica: So I'm going to give a shout out to someone who listens to our podcast, the lovely Andrea, who has always been a big fan. Hello, Andrea. I hope you are listening. And Andrea is the partner of another good friend, Jonathan. And Jonathan is a celebrated photographer of hip hop artists. And I've had the great and good fortune to work with on his book. So something funny happened. In the process of putting the book together, I wound up interviewing someone who is writing an introduction. A very and also very well known photographer who's also a portrait photographer, essentially named Michael Hall's band. Michael Hall's band and I share something which is our mothers were friends dating back to the 50s.

Meg: Crazy. Small world.

Jessica: Small world. And back in 2003, I was working at Palace Press, which is a. Was a hotbed of crazy. I was brought on to be a book packager. Wound up getting bamboozled into doing book production, which was sort of a good thing, even though it was a bait and switch. Cause I learned how to make all kinds of interesting fancy books and coffee table books. And at one point, a guy came in with this big glorious book about surfing. I heard his name in the background, someone behind me chatting, and I was like, michael Holmes, huh? My mom was. We were like, oh, my God. So 22 years later, I find out that Michael's writing the introduction for this book. So I called him up and I was like, so let's talk. So I interviewed him for three hours. He's a fascinating guy, and I recommend that people look into his photography. He sort. I see him as kind of the Cameron Crow of photography. You know, Cameron Crowe started following rock bands around and interviewing them from a very young age. And Michael had a very similar experience at 25. Basically right out of the gate, he went on tour with the Rolling Stones.

Meg: Huh.

Jessica: And then continued to photograph them. Whereas Jonathan is a rap guy, Michael is a rock guy. And in our discussion, he said to me, you know, I'm such a rock guy, that back in 1983, I was invited to this thing on the Staten Island Ferry that was a hip hop showcase extravaganza. And he's like. And I was so dumb. I had no idea. Maybe he didn't say dumb. I was so out of it that he's like, it wasn't my scene. I didn't get it. I didn't even know what I was looking at. But he's like, there were break dancers and rappers. And he was like this. He didn't use this word, but essentially what I gathered was, this is fakacta. And I was like, huh. So after I interviewed him, I couldn't shake.

Meg: What was this?

Jessica: Yeah. And I did my research and I did My research, and I couldn't find anything.

Meg: Oh, no.

Jessica: And I was like, I gotta change my search parameter. And I did find what it was. So I'm gonna talk about a. An artistic collective from New York City. It started in the very early 70s, pioneered interdisciplinary art, called. It's called the Kitchen. Are you familiar with the Kitchen?

Meg: I very much am, yeah.

Jessica: Okay, so we're going to talk about the Kitchen today and how they wound up getting Michael into a moment of. I don't think raps for me, but I was fascinated. I had no idea. And what I think is really interesting about this nonprofit is that very early on I said they pioneered interdisciplinary art. No one was doing that. And when we think, well, why is it important that different art forms blended, that they played well together? And you want to think about the 80s, let me introduce you to a little concept that we talk about a lot on this show, MTV Dance Music Video. And the Kitchen was very, very influential in bringing video into the world as an art form. Here we go. The Kitchen, which started in 1971 by Woody and Steina Vasulka, had always been a space, a physical space where experimental artists could share their ideas with one another. Among the artists who have been part of the Kitchen, which, by the way, I think is the best name. It's like we're cooking up something good. Laurie Anderson, Charles Atlas, the Beastie Boys, John Cage, Philip Glass, Bill T. Jones, Robert Mapplethorpe, Vernon Reed, the Urban Bush Women, the Talking Heads, Cindy Sherman, Robert Longo, and so many more. They started out on Worcester Street. They eventually moved to Broome. I like that you're just nodding and I'm like, am I boring you now? Is this. And in 1975, they opened the video viewing room where people could play their own videos and think about that. Videos. Like, what did it take to film a video? It's like you were carrying a refrigerator around on your back. In fact, I can reference our very first episode with ***** pioneers and good old Ugly George.

Meg: He really was carrying a refrigerator on his back.

Jessica: Exactly.

Meg: All of his equipment.

Jessica: Yep. You're like a one man band. So people were making their own videos and screening them for each other and figuring out how video was going to be part of this interdisciplinary art space. And in the 80s, they initiated programs that became part of their touring program, which is going to take us to the Staten Island Ferry. But they recognized that what they were doing was so revolutionary that they brought their programs, their exhibits and their collective opportunities to cities throughout the country. They started a European tour in 1980, and they did a US tour in 1982. So I looked and I looked and I searched, and I found a flyer online that's so rare. It had been auctioned and was part of a. An auction. And over several years, anytime any paper ephemera from the kitchen came up, people were bidding on it. Big, big, big money. And I'll show you what this one looked like. Here you go.

Meg: Oh, my God. Exactly like the postcards that we used to make for Club Thumb. I mean, just. That's so standard. Yeah.

Jessica: Very, very plain. And we can put it on the. In the Instagram. Very, very plain. And I'm going to get back to it in one second because there's something written on it that I thought was also very interesting about New York art history. What happened in 1982 was they decided to do this American tour. They kicked it off in New York City on the Staten Island Ferry. That was the big event. And it was interdisciplinary. It was not just rap and breakdancing, which, by the way, I'm gonna talk to you about an article from the New York Times where it's so new, they keep. Every time they say breakdancing, break is in quotation marks. And I'm like, hmm, that seems reductionist. But anyway, they started a program called Estate Fresh. And Estate Fresh was pushing the fusion of jazz and rapid and all things that had to do with the rap universe, namely graffiti art.

Meg: Okay. Yeah.

Jessica: So music, dance, art. The Estate Fresh program actually brought together famed jazz artist Max Roach and Fab 5 Freddie. And Fab 5 Freddie, who. I'm going to explain a little bit about who he is and who he was at the time, was the embodiment of this coming together of all of these different art forms. And I didn't realize what a big deal Fab five Freddie was and what he was bringing together. I had originally heard about him through Blondie's song Rapture.

Meg: Right. And we talked about him on the podcast.

Jessica: Yes. But I did not internalize it. Okay. The Estate Fresh program had Max Roach performing on beatboxes, rhythm machines, and drum kits. Fab 5 Freddie wrapped and turntableist. DJ Spy performed Wheel of Steel Mixing. The artists were joined by, again, I love the terminology from back then, boogie dancers, breakers, and there were graffiti backdrops. It brought together the musical styles of the 50s and 60s with the 80s era of narrative musical styles from rap back to the Staten island fairy. So I was like, when I heard about this. Now this is another callback for us. We've talked about working Girl on this program so many times, it's like rivaling After Hours. It is like Madonna After Hours and Working Girl and Working Girl are like clearly the totems of our youth. Other artists who are on that ship of fools, Eric Boghossian. So Fab 5 Freddie brought dancer Lisa Fox, musician Julia Hayward, saxophonist Oliver Lake, and the Rocksteady Crew. So that was the breaking crew. The idea of doing it on the ferry was that they wanted to have the view of New York City as the backdrop to all of these art forms that were coming out of and shifting in New York at that time. So then I found the Times article about it, which sort of amused me where they. They say, Fab Five Freddie, a graffiti artist and rap singer. That's another thing. Like, even while I've been working on Jonathan's book, I've been asking, is it a song or a track?

Meg: Turns out it's both.

Jessica: And his street quote break dancers. The Staten Island Ferry ride was on June 1, and it cost, I felt, a whopping $20.

Meg: What?

Jessica: For a ticket? Because it was a fundraiser for their nonprofit. And if you were dumb enough not to get the $20 ticket, you had to pay 25 at the dock. So you had to be really into this. The boat.

Meg: Limited capacity.

Jessica: Indeed. The boat left the Battery park ferry slip at 8:30. Again. What starts at 8:30 these days?

Meg: Right.

Jessica: I was kind of like, oh, we did go out late, like, remember getting dressed to go out at like 11.

Meg: Yeah. Also, shows tend to start at 8, I guess.

Jessica: Yeah. I don't. That's. That's typical. I feel like everything starts at 7 now.

Meg: I would love it if things start at 5, but that is not my life.

Jessica: And the Times article says it would leave the Battery park ferry slip at 8:30. Putter around new York Harbor. Again, very infantilizing. Very, very diminishing. Putter until 10:30. Return to discharge the seasick and pick up late comers.

Meg: At 10:30, discharge the seasick and pick up late comers. I love that. That's built into the event planning.

Jessica: Well, yes, but also, like the person who wrote this, John Rockwell, was really kind of a.

Meg: Does anyone get seasick on the Staten island ferry?

Jessica: Because I get seas. I get seasick on every. Do you know that I. Did I ever tell you that when I went to. Oh, God. I was in San Francisco back in the Palace Press days. What's the. You know, you take the ferry to. What's the, like, really nice Alcatraz. They felt like Alcatraz. It was not. Anyway, it's like a really short jaunt to like this really posh, nice place to have lunch. Threw up all over the ferry. Yes. I was not having a good time. But this kickoff, that's rougher though.

Meg: That's the Pacific.

Jessica: Thank you so much. I actually. I do feel better about myself. I've been carrying that shame for a very long time.

Meg: Talking about the East River.

Jessica: It's true. Yeah, you're. You're absolutely right. Thank you. Okay. And the way that John Rockwell describes this is, you know, the ferry is the start of this tour. It says it's going to strike out towards Washington in a caravan of one bus normally rented to rock bands. The last one who used the bus was Motorhead. And I was like, that's again, interesting bedfellows. An 18 passenger van that sounds like hell on wheels and one equipment van. And they were going to Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee, Iowa City, Detroit and Toronto. There were video installations on the deck. And, you know, Michael was there and totally unimpressed. This invitation that I found, scrolled on it in red marker is 12 noon. WBAI, Shelter, Skelta.

Meg: And I was like, that was a radio station.

Jessica: Yes, it was.

Meg: And I was like, it's an alternative radio station.

Jessica: Yes, it was. So I was interviewed on it, really, for what?

Meg: In the early 90s.

Jessica: But WBAI, just for those who do not know. Yes. Progressive radio station starting in the 50s and then really got to be counterculture in the 60s, bringing a lot of folk artists onto the show. And art forms of all kinds were showcased. They were into progressive anarchy. It seems like they would be kind of perfect to be part of this. So Fab 5 Freddie, who turns out was behind a lot of this. He was the guy who brought this together and was very much part of the kitchen. And you're about to say something about him.

Meg: He was one of the ones who was like, we gotta get all the different kinds of art forms together because they're all influencing each other.

Jessica: Yes.

Meg: And he also brought it downtown. Yes, to the clubs.

Jessica: The clubs. So. But what was fascinating to me about him is that he was legit part of all of these different scenes that accepted his presence and welcomed it. I don't mean like accepted him, but like they were interested in bringing this interdisciplinary form into whatever they were doing. P S. His real name is Fred Braithwaite from Bed Stuy, and he's considered the. One of the architects of the street art movement. So, you know subways, like in the movies, you see subway cars going by from the 70s and 80s. Where the whole car is one image. That's him. Ooh. That's one of the things that he did. He's a visual artist, a filmmaker, a hip hop pioneer, street art pioneer, and part of the no wave art scene that we've talked about quite a bit on the podcast. So while he was going to emerging hip hop parties uptown, he was also hanging out at the Mud Club and other no wave scenes. So he was in downtown 81. He brought Jean Michel Basquiat into that film. Totally amazing guy. In April 1981, he co curated a graffiti show called Beyond Words at the Mud Club with Keith Haring and Kenny Scharf. So what an amazing and interesting guy. There's so many other things about him, but on August 11, 2017, he even appeared as an animated character in a Google doodle. You know, like on the Google homepage. Like, they have a little.

Meg: Oh, yeah, okay.

Jessica: He was a cartoon. Observing the 44th anniversary of DJ Kool Herc's pioneering use of the hip hop break. Back to Staten Island Ferry really quickly. So all of these amazing things happened in 1982. And the kitchen, they were geniuses. They were like, if we just keep throwing everybody into the same space and having other people come and look at it, it will influence the culture. Yes, it did. Now, the Staten Island Ferry, because this is kind of a little bit of a stroll through my personal history today. So in 2003, I was newly divorced. Picture it, Upper east side. I am told by my good friend Nina to go on a date with this guy. She's like, he's not your type, but he'll make you laugh so hard. I go on the date. I did indeed laugh at the end of the date. I said, dude, you and me, it's not going to happen. You're not coming home with, like, forget it. But I would really love to stay friends. We did until he disappeared. And then I found out that he was fired from his job, which was a very. And had a huge, like, career nightmare because he was a commissioner in charge of the Staten island ferry when it crashed in 2003, October 15th.

Meg: Oh, my God.

Jessica: Killing 11 people and injuring many more. And the pilot had been over medicated, and that was why all of that happened. So I never saw him again. That was the end. And I saw it in the newspaper. The pier ripped into the boat's side, causing significant damage and casualties. And it led to major safety enhancements, including surveillance cameras and wheelhouses and rules for two pilots during docking. I've been carrying that Staten island ferry adjacent, story 11 people.

Meg: That's awful.

Jessica: Do you remember when that happened?

Meg: I mean, so not. I don't. I have to say no.

Jessica: Yeah, it was so freaking weird.

Meg: I mean, I feel like I know about it, but I don't remember it happening.

Jessica: So, yeah. Staten Island Fairy, not always your friend. Okay, so really quickly, here's what I learned. DJ Kool Herc. Here's how hip hop started. I don't know if we've talked about this on the show because you know that I have really major problems. What I didn't.

Meg: No.

Jessica: Was that the reason they started the first party was so that his sister could get clothing for her back to school wardrobe.

Meg: Oh, I love that. Yes.

Jessica: For high school. How cool is that? Yay. Okay, that's it.

Meg: The callback is to episode 124, hip hop happening and Sophisticated Lady.

Jessica: But aren't you glad that I didn't tell the whole story all over again? I actually gave a fact that had not been covered before.

Meg: I'm so excited about that.

Jessica: Are you proud of me? Like, no.

Meg: It's the perfect thing. Now people can go and listen to an addendum to the story that you just told.

Jessica: Indeed. Amazing. It all links now.

Meg: I'm excited to listen to it again because. Oh, I meant to tell you this.

Jessica: What?

Meg: I was nervous that I was telling this Ed Koch story, and you've told so many amazing Ed Koch stories that I was like, am I going to be repeating or, you know, is it. Am I just saying what Jessica has already said? So I went back and listened to your episodes about Ed Koch. It is all additive.

Jessica: I'm so delighted.

Meg: I know. And those are great episodes.

Jessica: I find him to be one of the most fascinating characters in New York history. I really do. Like, what an unlikely person to just, like, hold the city in the palm of his hand for such a long time. Wacky.

Meg: Seriously. So what is our tie in?

Jessica: Okay.

Meg: Staten Island Fairy, Ed Koch.

Jessica: It's a toughie. It's Larry Kramer. Larry Kramer. It's outing.

Meg: Aids.

Jessica: I mean, unfortunately, AIDS can be the connection in so many different stories that we do because it was, you know, this was the epicenter. But, you know, ooh, we could just say that.

Meg: I mean, it's so weak, but, like, epicenter. Epicenter of hip hop, epicenter of aids. Is that bad?

Jessica: Is that bad? No, but I love that you're going edgy. Like, it's really kind of great. I love it. Even more high concept. Like, maybe it's like. I was gonna say, like, bringing things together. But that's ******* weak. I don't know. I don't know. Have we finally stumped ourselves? Maybe. This is a call to action for our listeners.

Meg: Tell us, what's the tie in?

Jessica: What's our tie? What are we missing? It's gotta be something.

Meg: Happy New Year, everybody.

Jessica: Happy New year.

Meg: Let's make 2026 better.

Jessica: God, yes. Fight the power.