[00:16] Meg: Welcome to desperately seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I'm Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City.

[00:26] Meg: Where we still live and where we podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines and.

[00:32] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:33] Meg: Have you sent your class note into Nightingale?

[00:36] Jessica: I'm gonna. I'm going to amaze you. It's a two part answer.

[00:41] Meg: Okay, why is that not amaze me?

[00:45] Jessica: Exactly. The first part is. No, second part, I put it on my calendar two days ahead. You're gonna like this. Send in class notes or Meg will kill you.

[00:58] Meg: I mean, look, we're all really busy. I know it's a very difficult thing to do. When I sent out the reminder, I'm by the way, listeners, if it's not obvious, I'm like the member of the class who's supposed to remind everyone to send in their class notes.

[01:13] Jessica: Again, not surprised.

[01:16] Meg: The alumni newsletter.

[01:19] Jessica: I didn't put it in my calendar. The date that it's due. I put it in two days ahead so that I would get it in on time.

[01:27] Meg: I know that it's two days ahead.

[01:29] Jessica: Yeah, that's right.

[01:30] Meg: Should I send out another reminder?

[01:32] Jessica: Yes, for sure.

[01:33] Meg: I did send mine in and I'll tell you, it took me exactly 10 minutes. It is just not a big deal.

[01:40] Jessica: It's like many, many things in our lives, it seems odious and overwhelming and then it takes five seconds.

[01:46] Meg: So, yeah. Hey, Nightingale people. Please send in your notes. Please, please, please, please.

[01:53] Jessica: Who sent it in already?

[01:54] Meg: Other than you, Amanda.

[01:57] Jessica: That's sweet.

[01:57] Meg: Yeah. I was like, thank you, you're the best.

[02:00] Jessica: She's like, I still got you, girl. And you're like, thank you. I'm crying. Someone. I promise I'll do it. I'm gonna write about the podcast.

[02:11] Meg: Excellent.

[02:11] Jessica: Okay, so there's a really important thing that's happening today, Meg. And as I was setting up our garage band to record today, I see all of the data from what we did prior. And you know what today is? What episode? 150.

[02:30] Meg: 150 fifty.

[02:33] Jessica: We have created one hundred and fifty episodes. Well, about to 150 episodes. Isn't that crazy?

[02:42] Meg: It's pretty crazy. It's pretty impressive.

[02:45] Jessica: I mean, remember when we were sitting in the freezing cold in a pod during COVID in the street and we were like, we should do something cause we're bored.

[02:57] Meg: Like, we're not bored anymore.

[02:58] Jessica: Not bored now, but it seems like it's you know, that whole Covid thing, like the time is so strange that it feels like, you know, it's very compressed or it was a hundred million years ago. So knowing that it's 150 actually provides more of a time marker. And I'm like, that's actually a really long time.

[03:20] Meg: That's a really long time. And it's a lot of information. I would venture to say we are experts. Expert adjacent.

[03:29] Jessica: No, no, we're not adjacent to anything. We are, I think we might be.

[03:32] Meg: Experts on this very niche thing.

[03:35] Jessica: Okay. Can I. Can I blow your mind with something? Sure. Having been in publishing for a very long time, I see people who publish a single book about a single topic and are then touted as experts. So with that in mind. Yeah, me, we're experts. All right. On with the show. Yay. On with the show.

[04:04] Meg: Would you like to talk a little bit about the rules for calling back in the 80s?

[04:13] Jessica: I'm just making sure I understand the question.

[04:15] Meg: Yeah.

[04:16] Jessica: On the telephone.

[04:17] Meg: On the telephone.

[04:18] Jessica: What are the rules for calling back or whatever?

[04:22] Meg: Like what time?

[04:24] Jessica: Ah, okay.

[04:25] Meg: How do you answer the phone? How do you get off the phone?

[04:28] Jessica: I think we should role play this. So we could start by doing. We are our age. We are calling someone's home.

[04:36] Meg: What did your mom think? What would your mom say? That's what I want. The look on your face right now. I wanna know what your mom would say to her.

[04:44] Jessica: So we have to roleplay. Oh, okay. So we'll role play first. My mother's voice. Cause that's inimitable. Except by me, which is. It's evocative. Ring, ring. Hello?

[04:56] Meg: Hello, Mrs. Dorfman, this is Meg. I was wondering if Jessica was there.

[05:01] Jessica: Meg, it's 7:30. We're having dinner right now. I'll make sure that Jessica gets back to you when she's finished dinner and her homework. Okay? Honey?

[05:13] Meg: Yes. I'm so sorry. Thank you.

[05:16] Jessica: I'm really sorry.

[05:17] Meg: I'm really sorry.

[05:19] Jessica: Bye. Bye. That's okay.

[05:22] Meg: Yeah.

[05:22] Jessica: And she wouldn't have called you, honey. That was. That was. That was me breaking through.

[05:27] Meg: And what was too early to call.

[05:29] Jessica: Okay, so the rules were do not call in the morning, like super early. It's just rude. Like, leave us alone. Let us get our day started after school.

[05:40] Meg: I feel like I was told, like, on a weekend, never before 10.

[05:44] Jessica: Well, I'm. I'm going with. With weekday first because there could be like a homework crisis or something. And it was like, deal with it at school. Do not call me. And then at night, it was definitely not during dinner time. And the dinner time, you know, blackout for most people I think was between 7 and 8 for sure. But like if, if it's your friend and you know that they're like a, an 8:30 finishing up family, whatever. In my household, the minute that dinner was over there was an instant argument. I'm doing my homework and I'm on the phone with Ollie for like four hours. Get off the phone. And I didn't have a phone in my room.

[06:26] Meg: Right.

[06:26] Jessica: So it was. I used the phone in my parents' room and I would close the door and bar them from their own room.

[06:33] Meg: That's hysterical.

[06:34] Jessica: So and, and then the fight ensued. So by the time I was in college I had a phone in my room. But.

[06:41] Meg: And we were also told Never call after 9pm no.

[06:44] Jessica: God no. Rude as. I mean you had like a window if you were still on the phone at 9. That was a different thing.

[06:50] Meg: Absolutely.

[06:51] Jessica: But you do not. And, and on the weekends do not call before 10.

[06:55] Meg: Right.

[06:56] Jessica: And night was kind of a free for all. But like anything past 10:30 was just ridiculous.

[07:03] Meg: And isn't it interesting that we're talking about, I mean your family and my family were actually very different and yet we had the same basic rules. I feel like everybody had the same basic rules about phones.

[07:17] Jessica: Well, I think, I think to your point, number one. Yes. And number two, there were basic rules of etiquette across the board that everybody knew. Which I know is now seen as very old fashioned and whatever. But it was actually looking back on it as much as it was a pain in the ***, it made life easier.

[07:40] Meg: I agree.

[07:40] Jessica: You just knew you're not going to start a fight if you do this. You're not going to get your friend in trouble if you do that.

[07:47] Meg: You're not going to insult somebody.

[07:49] Jessica: Exactly.

[07:50] Meg: Accidentally.

[07:51] Jessica: Yeah. So. Exactly. Or make yourself look like a jackass.

[07:55] Meg: You won't find yourself in a very uncomfortable situation if you just do the things that everybody expects you to do when you, when they expect you to do them.

[08:05] Jessica: Self expression in terms of good manners was not encouraged. But it's good manners, so why would it be encouraged?

[08:15] Meg: Anyway, anyway, on with the story.

[08:17] Jessica: On with the show.

[08:18] Meg: I think you're gonna like this one.

[08:19] Jessica: Oh goody. Can't wait.

[08:22] Meg: My sources are New York Magazine and the New York Times. In February 1980, 46 year old Westchester sculptor Barbara Cohn booked a ticket to Los Angeles. She had an extra suitcase filled with charts and manila envelopes and diagrams. And as soon as she landed, she hightailed it to the offices of Los Angeles County Prosecutor Richard Nydorf. Without Barbara's help, Richard didn't stand a chance at a conviction and the trial was just a week away. But let's back up. Almost exactly two years earlier, Barbara, who again lives in Westchester, had placed an ad in the Westchester Reporter Dispatch. This is how that ad read. Housekeeper, two rooms and private bath for yourself. Can bring children or husband, tv, air conditioning, no pollution, no crime problems because we have a big dog to protect you. All this plus a weekly salary in exchange for taking care of house and older children who visit occasionally. Call and left the number. Does that not sound like a cushy job?

[09:44] Jessica: I would consider it now.

[09:46] Meg: Honestly.

[09:47] Jessica: Sounds delightful.

[09:49] Meg: I can bring my husband and children.

[09:53] Jessica: Good God.

[09:55] Meg: All right. Now, one of the reasons why it sounded so cushy was Barbara was kind of desperate. She lived with her husband Eric, who imported industrial fasteners. Do you know what an industrial fastener is?

[10:11] Jessica: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it's something that brings two things together and holds them and it's used in industry.

[10:19] Meg: Nuts and bolts is actually really. He is literally nuts and bolts.

[10:23] Jessica: Okay, all right.

[10:25] Meg: But he on his calling card, industrial fasteners.

[10:27] Jessica: That is really putting lipstick on a pig.

[10:32] Meg: They had grown children, so their children were no longer in the home and they lived in a 17 room Tudor mansion in Westchester. And she needed help fast. Barbara, who was the great granddaughter of Henry Goldman of Goldman Sachs, incidentally.

[10:51] Jessica: 17 rooms explained.

[10:54] Meg: was a sculptor with a packed schedule balancing gallery showings at Environment on East 60th in Manhattan and the classes she taught and of course, creating her wrought iron pieces in her basement studio. I googled her. Very accomplished. And their longtime housekeeper had recently retired.

[11:17] Jessica: Not good.

[11:19] Meg: The real obstacle was that it seemed like everyone in Westchester was in a similar boat. It was very difficult to find good help, so there was a bit of a scramble amongst her friends and neighbors. Good leads were kept close to the best. It was the Friday of Washington's birthday weekend because as you recall, it used to be called Washington's birthday weekend as opposed to President's Day.

[11:47] Jessica: Indeed, I do recall.

[11:48] Meg: And the phone had been ringing all day with people answering the ad, but not one was the right fit. And Barbara was very discouraged. She and Eric left for a party and returned at 9pm and just as they walked through the door, the phone rang. The woman on the other end said, I'm sorry to call you so late, but you've been out and I've been trying to get in touch with you. I'm calling about your ad for a housekeeper. Normally I would not call this late, but since you weren't answering earlier, I was pretty sure you wouldn't be asleep yet. Barbara was impressed, thoughtful not only with the caller's sense of propriety, but her confidence. And they arranged for an interview the next day. Barbara loved Ruthanne Miller in person even more. She was a tall, attractive black woman with dyed red hair who spoke in great detail about her previous jobs and even the cones 80 pound dog cuddled up next to her. And you know.

[12:56] Jessica: Oh yes, I do.

[12:57] Meg: When your dog, if your dog chooses somebody, you're fine.

[13:00] Jessica: You're in.

[13:01] Meg: Barbara offered Ruthanne $135 a week on the spot and she didn't want to waste time calling references. She trusted her gut and Ruthanne said she could start the very next day. And she arrived Sunday morning with a tote bag which she left in her room and went straight to work. She cleaning and making the Cohns lunch. Barbara was elated. And that night she and Eric headed out to a dinner party in Scarsdale where she gushed about her new amazing housekeeper. That's when Ruth Ann got down to the real work at hand.

[13:40] Jessica: She cleaned them out.

[13:41] Meg: She went straight to the Cohns' bedroom and Barbara's jewelry boxes. She loaded up on diamonds and opals and gold, including Barbara's Australian fire opal engagement ring. All told, $150,000 in jewels. Ruthanne then changed her clothes, left behind her sweater with the label cut out and her pants with the cuffs down. She called a cab for the train station and was at Grand Central by 7pm.

[14:21] Jessica: left behind her clothing, peculiar.

[14:24] Meg: Mystery. Barbara was stunned when she and Eric returned at 9 and there was no sign of Ruthanne. She assumed Ruthanne must have had an emergency and had to leave. But she didn't even leave a note. It wasn't until Barbara went upstairs to undress that she realized she'd been cleaned out. It feels like I've been raped, she told Eric. The Rye police had bad news for her. The case was unsolvable. They didn't even bother to take fingerprints. Barbara got the sense they weren't very interested in this non violent crime.

[15:01] Jessica: It's unsolvable.

[15:03] Meg: Unsolvable.

[15:03] Jessica: How embarrassing for that police department. Sorry we can't do our jobs. Sorry, sorry.

[15:10] Meg: Barbara got the sense that the police were like, look, the Cohns are insured. They can afford it. We've got more important things to do. The jewels, who knows where they are now? It's what do you want? Us to do. Barbara saw it differently. She paid someone to take fingerprints and got her own lab tests. She called the police for progress reports regularly. The Rye chief of detectives called her a pain in the ***. But Detective Barry, who was assigned to the case, saw her as an asset. Barbara canceled her sculpture classes, put her art making on hold, and devoted all of her energy and Sarah Lawrence education to tracking down her jewelry. The police said there were reports of other victims of the Red Headed Bandit. But when Barbara interviewed them, she asked very detailed questions. Questions the police had not asked about the maid's appearance, her bra size, her facial structure, her physical bearing, her pattern of teeth. Remember, Barbara's a visual person.

[16:25] Jessica: Yes.

[16:26] Meg: So she's eliciting those details from other victims. And after a number of interviews, she was confident that. That there was more than one red headed thief.

[16:40] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[16:41] Meg: There were at least four of them. Now remember about leaving behind the sweater and the pants with the cuffs let down? That's so you wouldn't know what height.

[16:54] Jessica: Even though you've met them.

[16:55] Meg: Even though you've met them. Well, we're going to get to that, too. This was news to the police. It never even crossed their mind there was more than one. And they encouraged Barbara to keep up with her sleuthing. So Barbara hired an assistant to help.

[17:10] Jessica: We are now in full Murder She Wrote territory. Absolutely amazing.

[17:15] Meg: And she needed an assistant to help with the filing as she racked up 60 victims dating back to 1973. The band of jewelry thieves was particularly busy on the Upper east side in 1978. Detective Barry told Barbara that the only way to catch the thief was to catch her red handed. And that gave Barbara an idea. She set up a sting. She borrowed a home from a friend who was out of town, had her grown daughter pose as the homeowner. They even changed out the personal photos in the house. She got the neighbor's son to agree to hide in the bushes with a camera.

[17:57] Jessica: Fabulous.

[17:58] Meg: And she placed her ad. It took a little time, but she got a nibble. A woman from her club said her ad. So the woman, the woman at the club's ad for a maid had been answered by a red haired applicant. All right. Barbara was elated. Send her to me. But the woman balked. She thought Barbara was trying to steal this highly qualified maid from her.

[18:25] Jessica: What are they in a PG Woodhouse book? Like don't take Anatole, My Cook. How could you possibly rob me of such brilliance? These people. Okay.

[18:36] Meg: And that woman from the club, she was ready to hire the Redheaded maid. Even though Barbara told her that she's a crook, she thought she was not.

[18:46] Jessica: Telling the truth or it won't happen to me.

[18:49] Meg: But she couldn't get in touch with the woman's references. And so she was like, huh, Maybe Barbara is telling me the truth. And when she described her to Barbara, Barbara was like, that's Ruthanne Miller. That is the woman who took all my jewelry. It was so close, and yet no slipped through her fingers. Barbara tried calling people who placed the ads. So I see you placed an ad for a housekeeper. Has anyone responded who has red hair? One woman said she had just hired a red haired maid. But when the new maid heard her new boss talking in hushed tones on the phone, she made a run for it.

[19:37] Jessica: Again.

[19:38] Meg: So close. And then the red headed ring went silent.

[19:44] Jessica: They knew.

[19:45] Meg: They knew that Barbara was on their tail and they went underground. Nothing was heard from them for months. But Barbara used this time to compile data. She figured since September 1973, the ring had pulled 60 jobs totaling $2 million in gems. And then after months of silence, a former sculpture student of Barbara's living in Bel Air called her and said there was some sort of housekeeping burglary ring making waves out there.

[20:22] Jessica: Amazing.

[20:23] Meg: So Barbara got the NYPD to contact the LAPD and forward sketches and predictions as to what their next move would be. And they were right. The ringleader, Carol Lee Jenkins, was getting sloppy and leaving a paper trail of phone calls and pawned jewelry. Barbara was able to help the different police departments consolidate their evidence and eventually arrest Carol Lee Jenkins in her Florida home. When she was extradited to LA, one of the first questions people had for her was, why the red hair? It turns out I have an idea why.

[21:09] Jessica: Yep. All that white people would see was a black woman with red hair.

[21:15] Meg: They would.

[21:15] Jessica: And they would be blinded to anything else because it was so unusual.

[21:19] Meg: Exactly. Exactly.

[21:20] Jessica: Yep. It's kind of genius.

[21:22] Meg: It is genius. For the most part, white people think black people all look the same, but they will take note of a strong, identifiable feature like red hair. If everyone in the ring has red hair, then the police will think there is only one perpetrator. And the odds of connecting the correct red head with a particular burglary are pretty slim. So you might bring in the wrong redhead, and then that redhead has an alibi. But they didn't need to when they caught the leader. Carol Lee Jenkins was sentenced to nine years, but Ruthanne Miller was never caught. And Barbara spent five figures on her passion project.

[22:14] Jessica: So when she had her charts and everything in her suitcase. Going to LA, that was her going with the evidence that she had compiled. That was her data. Right. Oh, and she went to Sarah Lawrence. You say, I like her. I know I like her.

[22:29] Meg: And I love that she made it so public that even one of her former students who lived on the other coast was like, wait a second. I think my sculpting teacher is like really into jewelry burglars. I should probably give her a call about this. I mean, she had enough contacts that they were all sort of working as assistants. I don't know, there's something about the fact that she knew a lot of people well.

[22:57] Jessica: Yeah. And they liked her enough to want to help her. Like that's, you know, that's a big part of it. It's like, oh, that ******* who lives on 72nd Street. She can stew in her own juices. There's a lot of that. That's quite likely not just on the Upper east side, but generally. But for so many people to want to help. Either she was incredibly well liked and. Or the thrill of we're going to catch the maid stealing our **** was so exciting that it was irresistible. I love it. I love Barbara. Yes, I love Barbara. Does she walk amongst us?

[23:38] Meg: She does, yeah.

[23:39] Jessica: Oh, yeah.

[23:40] Meg: I'll post about her sculptures.

[23:42] Jessica: Outstanding. Do your kids or did they go clubbing?

[23:58] Meg: My kids, did they go clubbing? No, I. Correct.

[24:03] Jessica: Oh, please.

[24:03] Meg: Alice does at school. And what clubs in Providence she goes to.

[24:08] Jessica: Really? And how would you compare those clubs to our. Our experience?

[24:14] Meg: I mean, I don't know because I. I've never been to the clubs in Providence, but from what I hear her talk about, she goes out dancing and. Yeah, there's a lot of like Gen X gay men who keep an eye out on her for her and her friends.

[24:30] Jessica: Oh, that's good.

[24:32] Meg: I know.

[24:33] Jessica: Well, I was with our very, very good mutual friend from Nightingale and her son and his girlfriend and they were so excited because they got into a club. Now these are 18, 19 year old kids and they were describing what it was like for them and I was like, why are you so excited? Like, I had that moment of like, why are you so excited to pay so much money for a stupid club? Like, I went full old lady, but I was listening to them and they were so stoked and they were like, well, there's this one place called Paul's and there's another place called Palace. And you get into Palace, but it's really hard to get into Paul's. Paul's Is, like, impossible. And we got in.

[25:23] Meg: Is it because they're underage or because there's a long line?

[25:28] Jessica: Because it has, from what they described, a similar vibe to our 80s clubbing. There's someone on the door. And if you don't look. Right.

[25:39] Meg: Velvet rope.

[25:39] Jessica: Yes, exactly. In fact, I think literally velvet rope. I looked up what this club was, and I was like, what the hell, Paul? Cause of course, when I hear Paul's and then I hear Palace. Do you remember Paul's Palace? The burger place that was on, like, 7th street, not far from where you were?

[25:57] Meg: Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[25:58] Jessica: So all through law school, I would order burgers from Paul's palace and wonder why I was getting really chunky. They very good. So I was like, you know what? I'm going to look this up. What is this? Paul's? And to my infinite amusement, it's this guy who is essentially cosplaying, being an 80s door guy. And he was a door guy in the 90s. He's an Italian guy, 6 5, wearing a white fur coat to almost to the ground. Silver hair all slicked back. And his name is Fabrizio Brienza.

[26:36] Meg: What neighborhood are we in?

[26:38] Jessica: You know, I was so unimpressed with what I was reading that I didn't even look to see where Paul's is. It's called Paul's Casablanca.

[26:45] Meg: Okay, so we'll look it up.

[26:46] Jessica: So this guy, it's he, you know, he's doing the door thing. He's our age. He's 55. And he was a big thing in the 90s, particularly in Miami. That explains the white coat.

[26:58] Meg: I know. I was like, that doesn't really sound very 80s, but, you know, whatever.

[27:02] Jessica: No 90s. He worked at a whole bunch of clubs. Club Liquid, which is a Miami thing, not a bouncer. And in this art, they're explaining what a door person is. And I was like, yeah, not a bouncer. Okay. Simply the door. Someone called him a door God and a hunk of Italian bread who wears rosary beads under his Dolce suit. And I was like, that's so specific. Okay. But the kids were incredibly excited. And then they describe in this article from the New York Times, which is a profile of this fella how the kids try to get in. He says the crowd generally is a collection of gays, straights, a lot of finance bros, a lot of skaters. The billionaire, the tech bro, the hot girl, the not so hot girl. But she's the daughter of somebody big, rude. So rude. And so I was like, okay, so this is what the kids are desperate to get into. And it seems very manufactured. So I decided I'm going to do a little look at the door guys. Who were the real door guys and why were they there? And why was the door scene what it was? So, in brief, what I learned is that the guys who were on the door at these clubs starting in the late 70s, these were the boys who were coming from Canada, from the breadbasket of the United States, closeted, the ones who got beaten up in school. The fairies, as they were referred to. Guys who did not fit in. And they eventually found their way to New York. And the club world at the time was even more misfity from what I read, than what we've ever talked about, definitely. While there was lots of drugs and all of that going on, these were kids who were really desperate to find a place. And the only people who were taking them in were either artists or musicians, other gay guys, a lot of performance art in the Bowery. That's where they were all coming to congregate. And because the club scene was the only place where they could go out and do something and not be beaten up. Let's do a cross reference to Paradise Garage, right? Their community created the door. And the community was about, this is the one place where we can tell you to **** off.

[29:35] Meg: okay.

[29:38] Jessica: And I thought that was pretty fascinating. And at the time, who knows if these very, very young kids were even fully conscious of the social flip that they were doing, but that is what was happening. At the same time in London, Leigh Bowery was doing his outrageous performance art and, you know, makeup and getting completely dressed up. So the costumes, that was where that all started to come from. So the outrageousness of the doorperson being 8ft tall, drag queen in platforms that were, as the kids now say, legit 12 inches. And the higher the hair, the closer to God. All of that was beyond drag. It was performance art going on at the door. Because that's where they were living, Literally living amongst performance artists. But it was also the first time they could experiment with, well, who am I? What is this going to be? And the whole door scene, all of the different door people, 98% guys, I think Diane Brill was on the door at one point. They supported each other. And they would go from club to club, sort of like if you remember Dirty Dancing, the boys, the waiters would go from hotel to hotel in the Catskills. It was the same thing with the door boys. So there were a couple of them who I found out about, who I've never heard of before. Which I'm sure anyone who knows the scene, who is listening to this would be like, how dare you not know them? That's absolutely disgusting. But there are three, but two in particular who I thought were really, really interesting. And there are articles that I'll refer to about these people where they're kind of nice oral histories where a couple of other young guys who were coming to New York and trying to find themselves were getting tucked under the wings of club owners or the door people or other gay guys who were spotting them and saying, I'll help you stay safe. So I'm going to introduce you to two people.

[32:01] Meg: Lovely.

[32:03] Jessica: So one of the most famous people at the time on the door was Aleph Ashline or Ashline. He was at Hurrah, Danceteria, the Continental. Worked at every wild nightlife place that you could imagine. He was originally from Santa Barbara, but he made New York his home. How did he get the job? He said force of personality. He had spiky hair. He had the look, it was white spiky hair. And whatever he was doing fashion wise at the time, he just amped it up. He knew to perform. He also knew that the people who he wanted to get jobs from had a predilection for blonde boys. So he got into his gear and became fast friends with the people who started Danceteria. Hurrah, which is a club that we have never really talked about before and I didn't know anything about, was his real launch. So Hurrah was a nightclub at 36 W. 62nd St. Only from 1976 until 1981. And it was bizarre that it was there because it featured punk, new wave, no wave and industrial music.

[33:14] Meg: 36 East 62nd.

[33:17] Jessica: West 62nd West.

[33:19] Meg: Okay, West 62nd, that makes more sense.

[33:21] Jessica: And the in house DJ among them was Anita Sarko. So this was definitely like a breeding ground for interesting things to come. There's this another guy and the stories around him kill me. His name was Derek Neen and his velvet rope. Now we're getting into the land of the bitchy queen and his velvet rope. The best way that I think it can be described is the exchange between him and some teenagers who are trying to get in. Are you straight? Derek asks a preppy looking man who has shown up with a slender blonde. No, I have a husband, but he's in Budapest, the man replies. Derek emits a stagey Bronx cheer. Budapest? That was no husband. If you have to pay for it, he's not a real husband. Later a Russian girl with a heavy accent arrives with two men, but no id. Daddy's girl is printed across her T shirt in gold letters. But I'm 27, she insists. So where's Daddy? Derek asks. Daddy's in Istanbul. He sells airplanes. Sounds like Russian mafia to me. What do you do for a living? I'm studying liberal arts. What, you're still in School at 27? Sounds more like the nude school. That strip joint out in Brighton Beach? Get out of here. He hailed from a small city in British Columbia called Kamloops, which is a Native American word and tribe, and he migrated to New York for rock and roll. He had a few other bon mots that had me on the floor. Two girls try to get in. Tonight is only for the boys, but I might let you in if you can come up with a good defense, he says, wearing a fox like smile. We came all the way from Long island, they plead. Long Island. Do you have your visas with you? Stunned by this humorous sting of Manhattan jingoism, the girls fall silent. Derek dives directly into interrogation mode. Did you know it was gay night? What other clubs do you go to? Why did you come here? My mom thinks I'm gay, one girl blurts out. All right. Will you make out with another girl if I let you? Derek asks pointedly. The girl grimaces. Derek sends them packing. When another group of girls show up and are identified as Canadians, Derek subjects them to a pop quiz concerning their country's history as it is also his own. Who is the first prime minister of Canada? Who is the head of the Metis. When the girls answer correctly, he waves them in.

[35:57] Meg: Oh, that's nice.

[35:59] Jessica: I like to keep things interesting for people who are waiting near the front of the line because they want to see things like that. It's show business. Which also brings us to Kenny Kenny, who was the king of show business. And we'll get a photo of him. But Kenny Kenny was one of the people who brought full drag and club kid wear to the door. And that's really what I remember. I'm sure you as well, that it was pure cabaret theater insanity and mean. Like the meanest cabaret you've ever seen in your life.

[36:31] Meg: So basically what you're saying is it's not just about who they're letting in. It's not just the gatekeeper. It's reading people in front of other people because that's funny and entertaining.

[36:44] Jessica: Indeed, right? Yes. And even immortalized in, I think it was in Saturday Night Fever when they try to go to Manhattan and they don't get into the club.

[36:53] Meg: You know, I've never seen that movie.

[36:54] Jessica: Oh, no, I always forget that.

[36:56] Meg: I'm so sorry.

[36:57] Jessica: But, yes, it was theater of both the absurd and the cruel. And who better to read you than a drag queen? I mean, isn't that their entire raison d' etre? I think so. But the person who I was really touched by, this person who definitely I had never heard of, and I don't think that he is a name that people remember. His name was Howie Montaug, but he completely redid himself. He was, you know, from Long island in the 1950s. He came to the city and he looked like Nick. Not as cute as Nick, but he had that super thin, dark, curly hair, that look. And he knew he had to make a name for himself because he was lost. He had no idea. He wound up getting a loft in the Bowery, which he filled with all of the club people who you could ever name. It's where they all. That's the cauldron where they all came from.

[38:02] Meg: I have heard of this person. I've seen pictures of that apartment. I'm pretty sure.

[38:09] Jessica: And he was famous. He started his own cabaret act because on this podcast, all roads lead to Madonna. He was the person who gave her her very first opportunity to perform at his cabaret. So all of those people and the new wave people and the arts people, he was the mother hen. Even though he was as young as they were, he dressed impeccably. He predated Tom. Oh, God. What's the name of that designer who does, like the little suits with the shorts? Tom Brown. He wore shorts with suits. He was adorable and weird. Friends with Michael Musto. He was just the it kid. But what was so fascinating to me about him is that as with all of the things that we talk about in club life in New York City, and again, why I feel like this Italian guy who's now getting all of this press and who the kids saw the night before last, I feel kind of like. So what is that? All of these door people were so young and so desperate to make something of themselves and see and be seen, and. And they knew as early as 1981 that they were dying. And so as that whole club world and nightlife world progressed through the 80s, one of the things that we would never have been aware of was that all of those guys who set the tone and who made the party what it was, one by one, were gone. And so I was. You know, I was thinking about it with this Italian guy, Fabrizio I was like, who the **** are you? And like, you're not fun, like you're. There is no more of that theater on the street. It was street theater. That's really what it was. Howie also got very sick, but Howie did something that I've never heard of anyone else doing or at least having it be talked about. From the minute that he got his Karposi sarcoma scars, he was like, I am not going out like everybody else. I am not going to suffer. I do not want to do this. And in his loft, he gathered around himself every friend and every person who had ever made their way through that loft. They gathered around him in bed. They put on his favorite episode of the Simpsons and he checked out with a handful of barbiturates with his friends by his side. And so it's grim, but also not. I thought that it was kind of beautiful in this very self determinative way.

[40:59] Meg: And I'm glad he wasn't alone.

[41:01] Jessica: Oh God, no. I mean, and again, not alone. If he had been in the hospital and gone that route, he would have been isolated.

[41:08] Meg: Absolutely.

[41:09] Jessica: He would have had nothing. So this whole conversation that I began with these kids very recently about, oh my God, the door person and I, I was thinking silently, you don't know. And very much in keeping with my contribution from our last episode with, well, if you're not from New York, how could you know that Donald Trump was the absolute garbage shitbird that he was and is. How would you know about this? But then I found out that I didn't know and that it was this incredible network of artists. They were artists, they were creative people who found their way to express themselves through street theater. Really what it was, and it was so short lasted because they were so short lasted.

[42:01] Meg: Well, thank you for sharing. That's a really beautiful story.

[42:14] Jessica: All right. I'm so excited, Meg, that you have the tie in today.

[42:18] Meg: Don't judge a book by its cover.

[42:20] Jessica: Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[42:21] Meg: So we have the red haired maids that everybody was think they were thinking that they were something that they weren't. And they used that clever ladies that they were in order to take advantage of those people, which is actually, I mean, I'm. It makes me a little bit pro maid, but ultimately I'm pro Barbara, obviously.

[42:41] Jessica: Obviously.

[42:42] Meg: And then these doormen, door guys who were presenting this sort of sassy Persona in order to entertain people and I'm sure intimidate people, obviously. Yeah.

[42:57] Jessica: Get theirs back for high school.

[42:58] Meg: But really they were sweet, lovely kids who were just coming to the city trying to make it and had a lot of struggles of their own.

[43:07] Jessica: Indeed. Nicely said. Hmm.

[43:10] Meg: Happy 150th.

[43:12] Jessica: Happy 150. I'm so proud of us. Yay.