[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the '80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City where we still live.

[00:27] Meg: And where we podcast about New York City in the '80s. I do ripped from the headlines

[00:33] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: So last week we talked about Plato's Retreat. You know, it was interesting. After we recorded that episode, I was walking around doing my, you know, everyday life things, running into people and friends, and I would just say offhand, have you ever heard of Plato's Retreat? Just curious, you know, a lot of people have not.

[00:55] Jessica: I would imagine that it's not a well known thing outside of either certain circles or New York City.

[01:02] Meg: There you go. But this one New Yorker was like, nope, never. I mean, I think it was like, that's an age gap thing maybe.

[01:09] Jessica: How old was this person?

[01:11] Meg: She's in her 30s.

[01:12] Jessica: No way. No way that person would know. You've got to be 50s or older.

[01:18] Meg: Oh, I don't know about that because the other person is in their 30s, too.

[01:21] Jessica: Yeah, but that might be a fetish person. And speaking of fetish people, we got a wonderful little missive from BFF of the podcast Guy Richards Smit. What he sent to us made me laugh so hard that. And, you know, we asked if we could share this. He said yes. I said anonymously? He's like, go for it. I don't care if you use my name.

[01:48] Meg: He's a pretty incredible guy.

[01:50] Jessica: He's an amazing guy. All right. So he wrote to us. In 1989, I was working as a photo assistant for the fetish photographer Doris Kloster. One night she organized a sex party at Le Trapeze, which was sort of second generation Plato's Retreat. I had taken speed and was kind of freaking out because it wasn't my scene and went to sit with my feet in the pool and stare at my reflection in the huge mirror to calm myself. At one point, the dominatrix I was dating, long story, came up behind me and whispered in my ear, get your feet out of that ******* water. Later that night, I slipped on some oversized cushions in the orgy room and got the worst rug burn. Anyway, great episode. ladies Love, Guy. I slipped on some cushions in the orgy room and got rug burn. Like that. That's everything. And you know that like, for all of the hype from the Larry Levinson's of the World and the Al Goldstein's, that's probably what happened. More like, whoa, I'm slipping in this pool of lube. What?

[03:07] Meg: All right, so this doesn't. This story doesn't top that by any means, but it is also very amusing. This is from friend of the podcast, Michael. Different Michael from my very close friend Michael. Okay. Just a fun bit of hearsay, my parents knew a bartender at Plato's Retreat who claimed that Rudolph Giuliani used to come in there dressed in a full Mickey Mouse costume. This was before he was mayor, of course. Still loving the show. Apparently, Rudy was dressed that way so he wouldn't get recognized.

[03:41] Jessica: Yeah, that's the way not to get recognized.

[03:46] Meg: He's had a bad week.

[03:47] Jessica: Well, you know what? I was just thinking that because he is so completely messed up now, he has experience in the Mickey Mouse costume. Maybe he can be the Elmo in Times Square now.

[04:00] Meg: And he has a history of dressing up. Remember when he dressed up with Trump?

[04:03] Jessica: Oh, yes, yes. No, he loves getting dressed. I thought. When you said he was dressed up, I thought you were going to say he was in drag. But. But, you know, he has no money, and he cleaned up Times Square, so he says. So why doesn't he just become one of those costumed people who terrorize. What are they called? Tourists. Yes, tourists. Are you okay? No, I'm not okay. I'm profoundly not okay, and you know it. We don't. We don't have to get into it. But I'm not well, I mean well, but I'm not well.

[04:49] Meg: You are a lawyer. Used to be a lawyer. Are a lawyer?

[04:52] Jessica: I am still. I have not been disbarred yet. So I. But I'm not a practicing lawyer.

[04:58] Meg: Got it. Okay. That's what I meant to ask. And you mentioned once before that you went to Rikers Island.

[05:04] Jessica: Yes.

[05:04] Meg: Was that your only prison experience?

[05:08] Jessica: Yes.

[05:08] Meg: Do you have a prison experience?

[05:10] Jessica: That was it.

[05:10] Meg: Okay.

[05:11] Jessica: I'm glad to say that that was the extent of my personal involvement in being physically present.

[05:19] Meg: And that was part of law school that you had.

[05:21] Jessica: It was law school training. I was like, guess what? If you send people away, this is where they go.

[05:26] Meg: But you were never interested in criminal law.

[05:29] Jessica: Oh, God, no.

[05:30] Meg: Okay. Yeah. That would be a hard. I can't imagine you enjoying that at all.

[05:37] Jessica: Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[05:39] Meg: Are you having a flashback to, like, that semester in school?

[05:43] Jessica: Yes. And, you know. Yeah. It's not for me. It's. Yeah. No. I have so many feelings right now, I can't sort through them.

[05:52] Meg: I'm sorry, but no.

[05:53] Jessica: No.

[05:53] Meg: Criminal law might bring up some of those.

[05:55] Jessica: No. No, no. Criminal law was, was never for me. People who were really interested in was. It was a very big deal. And when I was in law school, it was when Barry Scheck, I believe it was Barry Scheck was starting the Innocence Project at Cardozo School of Law, which is where I went to school. So the whole criminal law thing was kind of like. It even felt like a club. And I was like, I don't want to be part. This is not a club. I want to, you know, join or. And I hope they won't have me as a member.

[06:27] Meg: My sources are Bad Dreams, an article by Anthony Haden-Guest, New York Times, New York Magazine. On May 31, 1980, 49 year old Buddy Jacobson was in custody at the Brooklyn House of Detention after being found guilty of the brutal murder of his ex-girlfriend, model Melanie Cain's new boyfriend, Jack Tupper. Following that? Jack Tupper killed by. So Buddy Jacobson killed Jack Tupper. Jack Tupper was Melanie Cain's new boyfriend.

[07:04] Jessica: Right.

[07:05] Meg: The verdict was the culmination of the dark and deeply unhealthy relationship between Melanie and Buddy that developed and unraveled in Yorkville. Everything happens in Yorkville. In the late '70s. But more about that in a minute. On this Saturday morning, while awaiting sentencing, Buddy, who is 5 foot 7 inches and 150 pounds incidentally received a visitor at jail. A man who signed in as Michael Schwartz, a real estate lawyer. But really it was Tony DeRosa, a bartender who owed Buddy $300,000. Buddy was a Brooklyn born former horse trainer, the height, who had branched out into real estate and other entrepreneurial ventures, including founding a modeling agency with Melanie. He was a wealthy man with few scruples. He had sold a ski lodge in Vermont to Tony. But then Tony fell on hard times and couldn't make payments. So Buddy suggested Tony help him break out of jail.

[08:14] Jessica: This is the ultimate in, what is it, a deal, an offer you can't refuse. An offer you can't refuse.

[08:20] Meg: Buddy practiced signing the name Michael Schwartz, just like Tony signed it in case the jail made him sign out. And he gradually shaved off his distinctive mustache. And on May 31, Tony smuggled in a business suit. Buddy simply passed himself off as the fictitious Michael Schwartz, joking with the guard as she opened the front gate, "come on, baby, you're coming with me"

[08:44] Jessica: And left the other one in the prison.

[08:47] Meg: Yep.

[08:48] Jessica: Oh my God.

[08:50] Meg: His new girlfriend and his son, who were incidentally the same age in their early 20s.

[08:56] Jessica: That's a class act.

[08:57] Meg: Yeah. Were waiting in a getaway car down the block by the time he was sentenced to 25 years to life, Buddy was somewhere in Iowa on his way to California. Doesn't this sound like something that would happen in the '30s? This is in the '80s. What is happening here?

[09:14] Jessica: Yes, yes. And. And I really want to talk at some point about Tony's mental state to agree to this. Like, what exactly was it, like, life in prison or I'm going to find people on the outside to kill you in the next 10 minutes. Like. Like, what was the incentive to to actually sign yourself into prison?

[09:37] Meg: Well, this is what I know, that there, although it sounds so mobby, it wasn't actually connected to an organized mafia.

[09:47] Jessica: I don't think you need to be to find a hitman. You can find anyone to kill anybody.

[09:52] Meg: Fair enough.

[09:53] Jessica: I'm just saying. I don't know. I hear what he's saying. The story has not unfolded. I'm speculating.

[09:58] Meg: Yeah. Buddy's actual lawyer told the judge that Buddy had escaped to look for evidence that would clear him. Quote, this is actually from Buddy, "But the only reason I ran was to be free. I hadn't done anything. I was the same as those hostages in Iran."

[10:17] Jessica: Awesome.

[10:18] Meg: DeRosa got one to three years. I don't know what happened to him. So for helping break out, successfully helping Buddy break out of jail, he only got one to three years. So $300,000, one to three years. He might have just done the math.

[10:35] Jessica: Yes.

[10:36] Meg: You know.

[10:37] Jessica: Yes, yes.

[10:39] Meg: So how did Buddy get here? Let's tell the story of Buddy. He was born in Brooklyn, dropped out of high school, and became an incredibly successful horse trainer, having been brought into the business by his uncles. Oddly, he hated horses, but his horses won races. When he was suspended for violating state rules by buying and selling horses, he decided to branch out into real estate. So he's not a dummy. I mean, New York real estate, it's a good business to be in. He purchased that ski lodge in Vermont and a seven story apartment at 155 East 84th Street.

[11:20] Jessica: Did you say a seven story apartment?

[11:22] Meg: Apartment building.

[11:23] Jessica: Oh, building. Okay.

[11:24] Meg: Yeah. At 155 East 84th street between Lexington and 3rd. Can you picture it? I'm sure you can.

[11:33] Jessica: Yes, I can.

[11:34] Meg: A one bedroom in that apartment building. Now it's. It's condos. Now sells for $860,000. Buddy was a notorious womanizer. He could never go with the same girl more than once or twice. He lost interest. He would chase some girl, sending her flowers all the time. But if he heard that she was going with somebody else, he lost interest. He said, it's like digging up somebody's grave.

[12:00] Jessica: Ew.

[12:01] Meg: I know, but this friend. Friend who. Who. Who said that about Buddy? His point was really that Buddy wasn't a romantic. It was really about acquisition. And not only was he not. Sorry. Not only was he not a romantic, he also didn't have much of a libido. It wasn't about having sex.

[12:27] Jessica: It was owning. It was getting.

[12:30] Meg: Yeah, it was something about the horses, too. He didn't even really like horses. You know what I mean? There's something that's sort of about acquisitive.

[12:36] Jessica: He was an acquisitive little man.

[12:38] Meg: He was abandoned by his father, by the way. So maybe that has, you know, what every.

[12:43] Jessica: Everyone, everyone has a story. Cry me a river, Buddy. I don't care.

[12:49] Meg: Melanie Cain moved to New York from Norfolk, Virginia, in 1973 when she was 17. Can you imagine moving to New York City when you were 17? That's a hard one for me. I mean, New York alone. I mean, what do you do?

[13:07] Jessica: I think you have to be. I'm gonna say the dumbest thing. You have to be very highly motivated. And usually that motivation doesn't come from the best place.

[13:17] Meg: Well, actually, she came from an incredibly supportive family.

[13:21] Jessica: Well, then she was a dummy.

[13:23] Meg: Hey, why do you say that?

[13:26] Jessica: I'm kidding.

[13:27] Meg: Okay. She joined the Eileen Ford Agency in July, right after she arrived.

[13:33] Jessica: Okay?

[13:34] Meg: She had assets. Jerry Ford said of her, quote, "she was a very pleasant kid, but naive. She had a bit of a weight problem. Good mouth, good teeth."

[13:49] Jessica: Ew. It was like a horse.

[13:51] Meg: Yep. What the actual ****? And that was Jerry Ford, who had nothing to do with horses, but described women that way.

[13:58] Jessica: Wait, Jerry Ford? Was it Eileen Ford's husband? Ew. Ew. Good teeth.

[14:07] Meg: In spite of all that, or because of it, she was on the cover of Seventeen in March 1974, and they ran a story. Meet Melanie Cain. Quote, "everything, this is in the article, "everything about Melanie is refreshing. She's the image of everything wholesome, like Kellogg's Corn Flakes.

[14:29] Jessica: So she's a horse and a corn flake, a horse and a breakfast cereal.

[14:33] Meg: I mean, let's not describe women that way.

[14:37] Jessica: Well, we've objectified her now in some really interesting ways.

[14:40] Meg: She moved into a model apartment at 155 East 84th Street. And that's how she met Buddy, because, of course, Buddy was like, I've got this apartment building. Let's put some models in it. Model apartment. She had been dating a male model, but Buddy managed to talk her out of that. He was a very convincing guy. Soon after her Seventeen cover, Buddy was able to convince Melanie to leave the Ford Agency and open up one with him called My Fair Lady. Melanie. Melanie.

[15:18] Jessica: Naive. We've covered the naive part.

[15:20] Meg: Their business model was that they would go to areas in the Midwest, pitch the agency to young girls, and obviously they've got Melanie Cain there, who was just on the cover of Seventeen. So, see, success story, right? Offer them contracts and plane tickets and put them up at Buddy's apartment building. And surprisingly, I mean, to me, at least, the agency didn't do horribly. They specialized in hands, legs and lingerie. Offbeat types, like girls who were too short. Again, it feels like horses, doesn't it? A little bit.

[15:59] Jessica: Well, you're commodifying in a really dehumanizing way. Pieces.

[16:09] Meg: Yeah, they're pieces, yeah. But really, it was Melanie's bookings that kept the agency afloat. So now Melanie's whole life was wrapped up in Buddy. They were dating, and he was incredibly possessive. Buddy had no friends and didn't see any reason for Melanie to have friends. He also forbade the models staying in his building to bring in friends. Quote, "Buddy Jacobson subscribed fully to the Hefner-esque myth that the superior man is denoted or created by a continuous sequence of swiftly executed copulations. But he carried things to an especially loveless limit." That is a quote from New York magazine.

[16:55] Jessica: Ew.

[16:57] Meg: Like I said, he didn't have much of a libido, but craved the control. Melanie once walked in on him in bed with a woman, and he told Melanie later, I've decided to forgive you.

[17:13] Jessica: Dear Melanie, here is an essay on red flags.

[17:18] Meg: Well, it's interesting because this article was written at the time, and it doesn't talk at all about coercion and, like, how people join cults and how they can get swept up into relationships.

[17:34] Jessica: Well, the power of isolating.

[17:36] Meg: Yeah, but there's so many of those elements in this story. I thought that was interesting for sure. This went on for five years. Then Jack Tupper moved into apartment 7C at 155 East 84th Street. Jack Tupper. He was 34, Irish, from Queens, 6 foot, 190 pounds.

[18:05] Jessica: So now Buddy is in trouble.

[18:09] Meg: And he was in the bar business. That's why he moved to Yorkville, because he wanted to be close to all of those bars that we've discussed.

[18:17] Jessica: Why would Buddy let him in the building? I thought it was only ladies.

[18:20] Meg: It's not only ladies. The model apartment was on the first floor, but he rented out to all kinds of people.

[18:27] Jessica: Ah, okay.

[18:29] Meg: But actually Buddy lived on the seventh floor. Buddy and Melanie lived in an apartment on the seventh floor. And then Jack Tepper got the apartment across the hall from them. Melanie and Jack met obviously in the apartment building. Oh, by the way, there was a pool in it. There's a friggin pool in this apartment building.

[18:50] Jessica: Another building with a pool.

[18:52] Meg: I feel like people have not told me about these apartment pools. And I am now discovering that this city has tons of apartment pools and I want one.

[19:01] Jessica: You know what, something came up. I learned that there was also a hotel called The Ansonia. So I was wondering if Plato's Retreat was in The Ansonia hotel or the apartment building.

[19:15] Meg: It was in the apartment building. Gotcha now. Okay, back to Melanie and Jack, who might have even met at the pool, who knows? But they started jogging together. They were both joggers.

[19:30] Jessica: Okay, well that's nice. I don't understand people who run. We've talked about this.

[19:35] Meg: I want the image in your head though, of the little shorts.

[19:37] Jessica: I've got tiny shorts, I've got terry cloth headbands and wristbands and knee socks. She might be in some spandex with like those. A high French cut leotard scenario. Bunchy socks, leg warmers. Yes, in there. I'm in there.

[19:55] Meg: Okay. Yeah. All right. I. I don't think that Buddy jogged. The article, I don't want to besmirch Buddy, but I, it didn't mention him jogging.

[20:10] Jessica: It doesn't sound like he would prioritize that kind of thing.

[20:14] Meg: So Melanie and Jack, they're jogging together. They start having dinner together, and soon she's smitten. But Buddy wasn't having it. He offered Jack $100,000 and his pick of the models to leave town.

[20:31] Jessica: Oh, back to horse trading.

[20:34] Meg: Yeah, you can have one of those girls. Jack turned him down. On Friday, August 4th, Jack and Melanie had dinner at Parma and discussed marriage.

[20:46] Jessica: Parma, which is still around.

[20:47] Meg: I know. First they had to find a new apartment. I mean, they kind of maybe should have done that earlier. Not to blame the victims, but they were still living at 155. On Sunday morning, August 6th, Melanie got up early, leaving Jack in bed. Now you realize she just moved across the hall. So she gets up, she leaves Jack in bed, and she goes and signs a lease on another apartment on 52nd Street. So they're doing it. When she got home, Jack's boots and jogging shoes were there, but no Jack. She'd heard that her friend and My Fair lady client 20 year old Cheryl Corey had fallen 17 floors to her death when the railing of her boyfriend's terrace broke at 900 E. 85th Street at East End.

[21:44] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[21:45] Meg: I know. The boyfriend was in critical condition but had survived the fall.

[21:50] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[21:51] Meg: Just a horrible, like she just. Unbelievable, right? Horrible day. So already this is incredibly upsetting and unsettling. And as the day wore on, Melanie became very concerned about Jack, who still hadn't surfaced. She went to Buddy's apartment and could see shadows moving under the door, but no one answered. And the elevator wasn't working and the rug in the hall was missing. And there was a red smear on the railing. After a fraught day of calling Jack's friends and clocking weird red flags, Melanie contacted the police at 8pm. Now, at 4pm earlier that afternoon, a couple driving in the Bronx noticed a couple of guys setting fire to a crate in an empty lot and driving off in a Cadillac. The license plate was 777 GHI. Very easy to remember. The responding fireman told a reporter later, quote, "the guy's legs were coming out of the bottom of this burnt box. One of the guys said, ah, gee, it looks like a mafia head. But somebody else said, no, what's the point of burning it? That's dumb. The head was all matted, but you could see the bullet holes, but you couldn't tell what color he was. Black or white or Puerto Rican. If they had just taken the body down to Baychester, two blocks away, nobody would have found it for weeks."

[23:28] Jessica: Yes. Seriously, if you're gonna. If you're gonna kill someone, you want to disguise the body. Amateur hour.

[23:34] Meg: Yeah. Fifteen minutes later, a patrol car was stuck in traffic on the Triborough Bridge and clocked the license plate of the car ahead of him.

[23:43] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[23:44] Meg: 777 GHI. The driver was Buddy Jacobson. With him was a male passenger in his 20s, an Italian construction worker who spoke no English. The trial was drawn out and sordid, Melanie testified against Buddy. He forgave her.

[24:05] Jessica: Oh, well.

[24:06] Meg: Saying she was dumb and hyperglycemic.

[24:10] Jessica: He said hyperglycemic.

[24:12] Meg: That is what he said. Dumb and hyperglycemic.

[24:15] Jessica: Oh, my God, I love it. That's like, I worked for these guys who were convinced that they were real geniuses. And one of them used to say that if something was in sync or working together, it was symbionic. It's one of my all time favorites.

[24:32] Meg: After failing to reach a verdict, there was one holdout who bought the defense's conspiracy theories that were so crazy, I'm not even gonna say what they are. Buddy was convicted. And six weeks later, Buddy was living on the lam in Manhattan Beach. It had been 40 days of freedom since his escape. His new girlfriend, remember the 20 year old, she returned to New York and had given herself up to authorities. And one day, Buddy roller skated down to the Criterion restaurant.

[25:04] Jessica: I. You're making this up.

[25:05] Meg: I am not. I am not. And it's Manhattan Beach. Come on, you can see it.

[25:10] Jessica: Oh my God.

[25:11] Meg: He roller skated down to the Criterion restaurant with $10 in quarters to call his son. He's on the payphone, plugging in quarter after quarter, not realizing that the police in New York were coaching his son to keep him on the line so they could track him. Twenty minutes in, one of six police officers armed with shotguns tapped Buddy on the shoulder. He was taken back to New York to serve his sentence in Attica Prison. He only got an additional one to seven years for escaping, which is what I mean. You might as well try to escape, right?

[25:54] Jessica: Seriously.

[25:55] Meg: But he died in 1989 at 58 of bone cancer. I read about this particular case. It was actually this book, Bad Dreams that Anthony Haden-Guest wrote an article in New York magazine and then ended up writing a book. And it's like a pulp paperback. It is one of the first books that I read that got me really into true crime.

[26:29] Jessica: Really?

[26:30] Meg: Yeah, I've read it like two or three times.

[26:31] Jessica: So it's just like a survey of different true crime stories?

[26:35] Meg: No, no, the whole book is about this case.

[26:38] Jessica: Really.

[26:38] Meg: And I think I read it when I was like 11 or 12.

[26:42] Jessica: Really?

[26:42] Meg: Yes, it's. I found it friggin fascinating. And I can. I have in my head I know exactly what Buddy looks like. Because, you know, in the middle of the paper they've got, in the insert, they've got all the photographs. They show the rug that he was rolled up in that was like lying apparently. I mean, you know, obviously I've shortened the story considerably, but there are all these details about when he was rolled up in the carpet that I. And the fact that it was just a few blocks away from my house. I thought that was like, oh, oh my God.

[27:15] Jessica: Well, I love that you've revealed the seminal moments.

[27:18] Meg: It really was. And Melanie Cain, who I did not recognize because obviously when she was on the cover of Seventeen, that was way too early for us to be reading it. I mean, I didn't read it until I was actually a teenager, but she's so beautiful. Oh my God. In that very particular, kind of '70s way.

[27:39] Jessica: We have to put a photo of her.

[27:41] Meg: Oh, we absolutely will. And if you're interested, she.

[27:45] Jessica: That was my next question.

[27:46] Meg: Got out of modeling.

[27:47] Jessica: Okay.

[27:50] Meg: And she doesn't seem to have any online social media presence. I kind of figure that she has changed her name. But yeah, she, she got out of the modeling biz.

[28:03] Jessica: What Kelda's asked. Well, that is a gruesome and yet kind of funny story. The character of Buddy Jacobson is. He's hapless in a way. Like, he's an awful, awful person.

[28:20] Meg: Wait till you see a picture of him.

[28:22] Jessica: Oh, is he another one who's wearing like a terrible rug? And like, he just.

[28:26] Meg: It's the mustache.

[28:28] Jessica: Okay.

[28:30] Meg: And the fact that he is just extraordinarily short.

[28:33] Jessica: He's a little man with a big mustache. He's all mustache. 25 pounds of that 150 is mustache. Well, it takes all kinds, I guess. But like, you know, it's. He, he, he just doesn't do anything right. And then he roller skates to his doom.

[28:52] Meg: I mean, he actually did. I, I'll push back on that a little bit. He did some things right. He escaped from jail. That's not easy to do.

[29:02] Jessica: Yes.

[29:04] Meg: And his business model, I mean, it wasn't a bad one actually. Like with the modeling agency and the real estate. And he was good at horse training. He was like. He actually had innate skills and he had good instincts, but he was a ****** human being. I guess the hapless part's the bummer for Buddy.

[29:22] Jessica: Yeah, the bummer for Buddy is that he just couldn't stick with what he was good at. He couldn't. Like he was, he was, he was.

[29:31] Meg: A restless soul and he couldn't. Because he was a ****** human being. Even though he had good ideas, he kept getting in his own way because of his own demons.

[29:43] Jessica: Yes. There are a lot of self sabotagers we all know.

[29:47] Meg: And then he goes and kills like Jack Tupper, who I didn't talk that much about, but he seemed like a basically decent guy. Just wanted to, you know, open a bar.

[29:54] Jessica: And hang out with this pretty girlfriend.

[29:57] Meg: Very, very pretty girlfriend.

[29:59] Jessica: Yeah, well.

[30:01] Meg: Oh, Jack, it's the roller skates for me.

[30:14] Jessica: I was talking to my friend Kim.

[30:16] Meg: Yes.

[30:17] Jessica: Last night. And she. We were talking about the Taylor Swift movie, the Eras movie. And we were talking about how astonishing it is, like what the production value of that tour is/was. And that for three hours Taylor Swift is in nonstop motion while singing. And she told me that the way that Taylor Swift trained to do that was she would sing all three hours of the concert while running on a treadmill.

[30:49] Meg: Oh, that's fascinating.

[30:50] Jessica: Yes. I thought, oh, that's. That's amazing.

[30:52] Meg: I mean, she's not much of a dancer.

[30:53] Jessica: That was what Kim said. She's not really a dancer. She's sort of really awkward and. But she. She moves around and skips around, so good for her. And then she said, quite a stark contrast to Madonna's recent tour, where Madonna had the audience wait for three hours before she came out. So you could have had the entire Taylor Swift concert before Madonna decided to come out on stage.

[31:28] Meg: I know a number of people who went to that Madonna concert at Barclays Center and said it was worth every single minute of waiting, that it was an extraordinary experience.

[31:41] Jessica: I would expect no less from Madge. Queen Madge, for sure. Heart. Well. And that's how I homed in on what I wanted to talk about today, because we talk about Madge in ways that, you know, really reflect how long she's been around. Right. And she's sort of taken for granted, I think.

[32:05] Meg: I don't think she gets the adoration she deserves.

[32:08] Jessica: I agree. And I was thinking about one of her iconic performances, and then I was like, wait a minute. Was that at the first MTV Music Awards?

[32:21] Meg: Is it Like a Virgin?

[32:22] Jessica: Yes. And then I thought, you know what? That's something that we can talk about on the show today, which is the MTV Music Awards, always in New York City. Like, we've, we talk about MTV a lot, but there's some things that I learned about MTV and that first awards show and why it was more important than we ever could imagine.

[32:47] Meg: Tell me.

[32:48] Jessica: So, first thing is, MTV did not launch in New York and LA until 1983. There's all of the lore about how The Buggles was the first video and they launched it and all of that.

[33:01] Meg: Do you want to talk about what that means?

[33:03] Jessica: Oh, I'm sorry.

[33:03] Meg: Video Killed the Radio Star.

[33:06] Jessica: Correct. So the song Video Killed the Radio Star was the first video that they aired. And the, the opening was the moon man landing with the MTV flag. And it wasn't I want my MTV. It was, Ladies and Gentlemen, Rock and Roll.

[33:25] Meg: Okay.

[33:25] Jessica: Which I thought was kind of awesome. And that moment took place in the Midwest and in tiny, tiny markets because they were testing it. Oh. Exactly. So I realized that I have a Mandela Effect memory, because I was not 11, obviously, when I first saw this, I was 13. And it was.

[33:48] Meg: Yeah, that clocks for me. I do remember where I was when I saw it, which I've spoken about on the podcast before.

[33:54] Jessica: Me too.

[33:55] Meg: But it was in the summer. It was in Atlanta, Georgia. It was at midnight. It was at my grandmother's because I would stay up very late. Really? Because of MTV.

[34:05] Jessica: Samesies.

[34:06] Meg: Yeah.

[34:06] Jessica: I mean, it tested well enough for them to be like, okay, let's now try it in New York and LA. But the original concept was basically that it would be FM radio, but visually.

[34:19] Meg: Yeah. And great concept.

[34:21] Jessica: Well, they had a lot of problems, which was there wasn't any material to air. Certainly not American acts. The only acts that were making videos prior to 1981, for the most part, were British bands and British individuals like David Bowie. People who were sort of on the art scene or bands who were coming out of as so many did, the English, everyone was in art school, so their buddies were experimenting with doing video. And that's how these.

[34:56] Meg: And also, I mean, I would.

[34:58] Jessica: First wave of videos came out.

[34:59] Meg: The fact that The Beatles had those concert movies influenced.

[35:06] Jessica: Well, it was more that they were, these were artists and who later became very big directors who were experimenting with a medium that didn't exist before they were pioneering it. So maybe you're right. I don't know. That's. That's how they described it.

[35:20] Meg: I'm just thinking of Yellow Submarine. And yes, Help. I mean, that, that all predates the '80s.

[35:26] Jessica: I'm sure it helped get it. So anyway, so that's what they had, and this was what really fascinated me, is that their business model. You're talking about Buddy's business model. Think of how poorly this would go over today. The MTV business model was that they went to all of the record companies and said, we think that you should invest money, your own money, in making videos for your acts. For a platform that is completely untested.

[36:03] Meg: Yeah, that's a hard sell.

[36:04] Jessica: Yeah. But we're telling you, this is the future of music. And after the first two years of testing in those markets, the American labels started to do it. So by the time they launched in 1983, there was, in the larger markets, there was a little more of a mix. However, they were doing very badly, nonetheless, they were not making money and they were losing money.

[36:34] Meg: The record companies were?

[36:36] Jessica: No, I'm sorry, MTV.

[36:37] Meg: Okay.

[36:38] Jessica: And they had to do something to make a splash. They had to do something that would make people pay attention.

[36:46] Meg: Yeah.

[36:47] Jessica: So in 1984, they had the, in the summertime, they had the very first MTV Video Music Awards. And that show was actually what saved MTV and what made it all take off. Now let's talk about the awards show for a second. The only thing that anybody remembered was not who won. Who won? Bizarrely, The Cars for their weird animated video for You Might Think.

[37:23] Meg: Okay.

[37:23] Jessica: They won best video. They always did very cool videos. They did. But you know what didn't win Best Video? Thriller.

[37:31] Meg: Wow.

[37:32] Jessica: Yeah. Was it too long? Well, here's why. No. The first awards, the people who were the judges and they did this because they wanted the record labels to get involved were studio executives or record label executives. So for whatever reason, The Cars won that.

[37:53] Meg: Are you saying that it was political?

[37:55] Jessica: Yes. And they didn't want to reward Michael Jackson.

[37:58] Meg: Michael Jackson.

[37:59] Jessica: He still got three Moon Men awards. Don't worry about Michael Jackson. He did just fine.

[38:06] Meg: Didn't he moonwalk on the Video Music Awards?

[38:09] Jessica: Not that. He wasn't there. The person who accepted his awards was Diana Ross. And I looked at some photos from back then and. And MTV had some of these photos posted and hilariously mislabeled Diana Ross as La Toya Jackson. Oh, yes.

[38:30] Meg: My God. That is so bad.

[38:32] Jessica: It is so bad.

[38:34] Meg: Wait, wait, where is it mislabeled?

[38:36] Jessica: On MTV's own website. Currently? Yes.

[38:40] Meg: No.

[38:41] Jessica: Yes. I'm like, what intern did that? I don't know. God.

[38:47] Meg: Blasphemy.

[38:48] Jessica: Very bad. Interestingly, the number one act to take away the most awards, which I think was five, was Herbie Hancock for Rockit.

[39:01] Meg: Okay.

[39:01] Jessica: Do you remember that video?

[39:03] Meg: Yeah, kinda. So I mean, Herbie Hancock, that's a blast from the past.

[39:08] Jessica: Well, major jazz musician, like huge legend.

[39:12] Meg: I just have not thought of him for many, many years.

[39:14] Jessica: Well, indeed, by the way he was already like middle aged when that came out. So he's like. I don't. I think he's still alive, but he's quite old. Anyway, he won. The other big nominees were Cyndi Lauper. Yay. Billy Idol. And ZZ Top won.

[39:36] Meg: Okay. Spreading the wealth.

[39:37] Jessica: And there's a moment where the camera pans over the audience and everyone is wearing a fake ZZ Top wig, which is not wig. Excuse me, beard. Which is kind of hilarious.

[39:48] Meg: When you said ZZ Top wig, I was picturing the beard on the top of their heads.

[39:55] Jessica: Yes, that's pretty much what you should have thought.

[39:58] Meg: Very strange thing you just did to my brain.

[40:00] Jessica: Yes. I am so sorry.

[40:01] Meg: It's okay.

[40:02] Jessica: You know what was even more interesting just as a flash from the time is who the presenters were. Dan Aykroyd and Bette Midler.

[40:13] Meg: Okay. So they wanted to bring in comedians.

[40:15] Jessica: They were both at the top of their careers. Ghostbusters had just come out, and she had her first number one album and was in a bunch of comedic films. So they were it.

[40:27] Meg: Okay, like movie stars. They wanted movie stars. Yes, they got.

[40:30] Jessica: And they got Joe Piscopo and Eddie Murphy to do a lot of the iving out the awards. So all of this is nice, right? However, they're going to have Madonna come out as a you know, they're. They have a whole bunch of different people performing, but, you know, she's like, the break. And she had been nominated for Borderline. Did not win. So. Okay, out comes the wedding cake. She rises out of it. If you're listening and you've never seen this, please, please get on YouTube and watch the video. Now, I always thought that the whole performance was choreographed to be the way that it was. No, she lost her shoe. So she dives after her shoe, loses the other one, and is like, well, I'm on the ground now, so I'm going to roll around and that's what I'm going to do. And by mistake, the first wardrobe malfunction of MTV, she flashes her underpants to the audience, and it's caught obviously.

[41:33] Meg: I will say that I did not know that detail. I did know that it was improvised in some way. I didn't know that it was a wardrobe malfunction. And. And when you watch it, too, you can tell that the cameraman doesn't know what to do because she's so low down on the ground. And that's not what he was. That's not what he was expecting. So the whole thing is weird and awkward and very vulnerable and kind of scary. You're like, what's about to happen?

[42:00] Jessica: Which is exactly why it works. What is she doing? Yes.

[42:05] Meg: What are we about to see?

[42:07] Jessica: The buzz that that created was so enormous that not only did the awards show save MTV, but Madonna did.

[42:18] Meg: Oh, of course. God bless Madonna.

[42:21] Jessica: And everyone realized that that show was the opportunity to outshine the Grammys because anything could happen. And that's what they encouraged and did for a very long time, until, like, some weird **** with Marilyn Manson or God knows what happened. But that was. That was the whole idea. And you can see video from that first broadcast where, you know, David Lee Roth is out of his mind, like, everyone's on drugs. You can. Like, everyone is flying because they don't.

[42:51] Meg: They probably don't even know if it's where it's going to be broadcast. Like, who's going to watch this?

[42:56] Jessica: There are no rules they're like, they're probably begged to show up, right? So you have all of these people who are being plied with huge amounts of and oh, and not only alcohol. Dan Aykroyd is smoking and drinking while presenting the show. There's just a lit cigarette going and you can tell he's out of his gourd, completely **** cuckoo. And then just for more New York fun.

[43:22] Meg: It was in New York, right?

[43:23] Jessica: Of course. Everything was in New York. It was a Radio City Music Hall. That's what I thought, what I found out. Now when I think about MTV and I think some of our listeners who might be a bit younger than we are, think of mtv, they think of the Times Square location. Because Total Request Live had all of the kids like, you know, in Times Square looking up and, you know, with signs and trying to get on camera out the window. But no, their first location was on 57th Street off 7th Avenue. So the after party was at the Hard Rock Cafe. And the Hard Rock Cafe, I may have said this on this podcast before, but it was one of the first places I went that was like a grown up place.

[44:08] Meg: Yeah, we've talked about it. Because they served you. Well, I didn't get served.

[44:11] Jessica: I didn't know our friend got served, but I saw it.

[44:15] Meg: Did I tell you I saw. I think I did. On this podcast. I saw Diana Ross with one of her children on her shoulder. I was like, oh, she's so fabulous.

[44:25] Jessica: That's so sweet.

[44:26] Meg: I kind of love that place. It was. Yeah, it was a place where you could go to pretend to be grown up.

[44:31] Jessica: Yes, exactly. You could cosplay grown up there. And what was so funny. And again, I. Forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but the girl I was with always looked much older than we were. And some businessmen were trying to like, ply her with drinks and even she got freaked out and we were like, ooh, this is not for us. But you know, burgers and fries and that was fun. But that was like a place where we actually would go.

[44:59] Meg: And now I think just tourists go there. It's actually in Times Square now.

[45:03] Jessica: But are you ready for who now owns it?

[45:06] Meg: Okay. Am I?

[45:07] Jessica: I want to get it right because otherwise it will be bad for me if. If I get it wrong. But you will never believe it in a million years.

[45:15] Meg: Bad for you because.

[45:16] Jessica: Well, you'll see. So although it started in Mayfair in 1971. Mayfair? In London. Got it. And expanded all across the United States at this time, all Hard Rock Cafes are owned by the Seminole Tribe of Florida. They own and operate all units except the Sioux City, Tulsa, Biloxi and Vancouver properties.

[45:44] Meg: Including the one in Times Square?

[45:47] Jessica: Yes. What? Yes. How did that happen? Casino owners. They own casinos. And so they expanded and bought the entire US almost entire US Hard Rock Cafe Corporation.

[46:02] Meg: Goodness.

[46:03] Jessica: Isn't that wild?

[46:05] Meg: That's so unexpected and odd.

[46:10] Jessica: Yes. Quite a journey. So there was one after party at.

[46:15] Meg: The one on 57th Street.

[46:17] Jessica: Right. Which is no longer there. It's now in Times Square. And the other one was at Tavern on the Green. And they show some photos from the Tavern, and it's like.

[46:24] Meg: Which is also a horrible touristy place now.

[46:27] Jessica: Yes. Like, who would go there? I don't know.

[46:29] Meg: Well, honestly, Joe and I had dinner there not too, too long ago. And I was sitting there, I was like, I can't be here. This is awful. Yeah, it was. It was a bad food, bad vibe. The whole thing made me. Maybe because I also remembered what it used to be a little bit that I was like, do you want to put me in the worst mood of my life? That means that we have to stay here. I was a horrible person that evening. Like, thank God he forgave me.

[46:59] Jessica: Well, that a bad restaurant experience will do that. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I fully. I've had fits at restaurants as well. Frequently my fits have to do with, like, I am not going to be seated there. You must now change this.

[47:14] Meg: I've been witness to a number of those.

[47:15] Jessica: Honestly. And it's like, I've been around long enough to know why you're seating me here. Like, no, no, no, no, no. You're 21 and you think you're being clever. Wrong again.

[47:31] Meg: All right, so back to Tavern on the Green in the '80s.

[47:33] Jessica: In 1984. And so I think that some of the older people went to the, like, Diana Ross/La Toya Jackson was at Tavern on the Green, whereas Anthony Michael Hall and Robert Downey Jr. were at Hard Rock Cafe. There's a great photo of them in a car. Now, I don't know if they're pulling up in this 1950s car or it was a feature of the restaurant, I can't remember. But they're wedged into the backseat of a car with David Lee Roth and his then girlfriend, Sonia Braga. Wow. Now, let me just have a little moment. Because of my experiences with some people who have spent a lot of time in the concert production world and took a lot of these bands on the road, it is undisputed that David Lee Roth is as gay as the breeze. Oh, and that there was no way that he was ever dating anybody who was a lady. So Sonia Braga was his assigned date for this, which I thought was kind of fabulous. And she looks very amused, and he just looks whacked out of his mind. So I just love that foursome in the backseat. And Anthony Michael Hall is wearing the outfit that Jon Cryer does as Ducky.

[49:04] Meg: Oh, no, he's not ironically.

[49:07] Jessica: No, it is practically identical. I was like, oh, for the love of God, I love it so. And another person who is at Tavern on the Green is Richard Belzer of SVU fame and almost at first glance, unrecognizable because he is not a gray hair on his head. But have I told you my favorite Richard Belzer story?

[49:31] Meg: I'm not sure.

[49:31] Jessica: Richard Belzer had a little poodle that he loved. He loved, like, we love our dogs. And that poodle went every place with him to restaurants as well. And I was at some publishing business lunch with a publicist, a very well known publicist who was a real, like, loud, theatrical type of guy. And he, like, he knew Richard. It was the restaurant Michaels, and he sort of knew Richard Belzer, but he wanted to, like, make a connection. So the dog was sitting in a chair next to Richard Belzer and whoever he was eating with. And the guy I was with convinced the waiter to bring a martini over to the dog. Cute. Yes. It was not liquor. It was water. But so the dog, the dog got his little moment, and Belzer actually, like, paid attention to the publicist. And I was like, if you want to get anyone's attention, go for the dog.

[50:31] Meg: Yes. Love on the pets.

[50:32] Jessica: Love on the pets. So very New York. The birth of MTV saved by Madonna. And the other thing that really struck me as very funny is lately, you know, we all do. We spend time walking up and down Madison Avenue and we see the clothing and whatever. And I was remembering how scandalous Madonna's outfit was. Was. And you know, she was wearing a lace see through bustier with this big wedding kind of skirt. And it was like, oh, my God, it's so see through. Have you noticed that every wedding dress, like, any of these shows that you watch, like, say yes to the dress or whatever, Every wedding dress has a sheer bustier top. It is the thing, these corset tops, they make Madonnas look so modest. And I was just like, oh, my God, another moment of go, Madge, go. So bringing it full circle. I'm glad that her audience didn't care that she was three hours late because she's Madge. I love her so much. I can't think of a tie in.

[52:00] Meg: I. Neither can I. I was hoping that maybe. I mean, not that I would hope that Madonna had been arrested for anything, but if she had broken out of jail, we would have some kind of.

[52:08] Jessica: She broke out of the jail of what was expected of women.

[52:11] Meg: There you go.

[52:13] Jessica: Yeah.

[52:13] Meg: All right. That's. I think. I think that's.

[52:16] Jessica: And Robert Downey Jr. did go to jail.

[52:18] Meg: Indeed.

[52:19] Jessica: So that's our tenuous connection.

[52:23] Meg: The day that this episode drops is the day of my show, which is a really big deal for me. And I feel like. I mean, we haven't really talked about it on the podcast at all, but because the podcast is becoming kind of like a journal, the fact that it never came up, I felt like was odd.

[52:41] Jessica: You think the podcast is like a journal? That's so fascinating.

[52:44] Meg: A little bit. I mean, it's gonna be. We're gonna have this forever.

[52:48] Jessica: True. It's a record of whatever our brains were doing at the time.

[52:52] Meg: And if I don't ever mention that my one woman show happened on December 19, 2023, I think that would be remiss.

[53:01] Jessica: A strange omission.

[53:03] Meg: But yes, it's been a lot of work and I'm excited, but I'm also nervous. But I'm also very proud of myself.

[53:10] Jessica: I think you should be. You've put im.

[53:11] Meg: An enormous amount of work.

[53:14] Jessica: And it's been an evolution that is quite remarkable. So I'm excited to see it. But are we. I think that after that, that show has, has happened. We're gonna take our Christmas break, we're gonna. Or our winter break.

[53:31] Meg: We're gonna take two weeks off. Well deserved. Have some holiday, have some rest, have some reboot and. And we will be back in January.

[53:43] Jessica: Yay. I think that, yeah, every time that this time of year rolls around, it's sort of like. I know that I feel like I'm functioning on fumes. And as I said to you earlier, this is a very stressful time of year. And I know that it is for probably most people, but it is not the happiest time of the year for me. I don't dig it. So I'm kind of excited to, to have that reboot and that rest and come back, you know, bigger, badder, louder, crazier in 2024.