[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s.

[00:19] Jessica: I am Meg, and I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City.

[00:27] Meg: Where we still live and where we podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the Headlines, and.

[00:34] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:36] Meg: Jessica, you know my really good friend Michael.

[00:38] Jessica: Yes.

[00:39] Meg: This week I saw him at rehearsal.

[00:41] Jessica: Yes.

[00:42] Meg: And he said he listens to our podcast every week.

[00:46] Jessica: He's.

[00:46] Meg: He's completely up to date.

[00:47] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[00:48] Meg: And he said, it's so funny how you guys just sort of assume that your New York City experience was universal. He was like, I've. He's a musician. He had never heard of Rock Lobster ever in his life.

[01:03] Jessica: Is that really a New York thing, though?

[01:05] Meg: Apparently. And he grew up in Rochester, but.

[01:08] Jessica: I mean, like, they're from Georgia.

[01:11] Meg: I'm telling ya.

[01:12] Jessica: I. You know, maybe he just wasn't a New wave person. What did he listen to?

[01:18] Meg: I. I'm. He'd heard of the B52s, but he'd never heard that song.

[01:21] Jessica: I love that. That's so funny. Well, no, it's. Look, do we. Do we assume that ours is the only New York experience? No. We have Travis as our dear good friend. We know that our New York experience is.

[01:34] Meg: But he's from New York, too.

[01:36] Jessica: No, no. I thought he was saying, like, that we have this one perspective or that.

[01:41] Meg: We assume that whatever was happening with us was happening all over the place.

[01:46] Jessica: Oh, well, probably. No, we don't. We don't think that.

[01:51] Meg: Such a funny look on your face. In other words, like, I mean, if it wasn't happening to us, who.

[01:59] Jessica: I mean, if a tree falls in the forest, does Rock Lobster play? I don't know.

[02:17] Meg: You went to college.

[02:19] Jessica: Yes, I did.

[02:20] Meg: In the Midwest.

[02:22] Jessica: Yes, I did.

[02:23] Meg: Right.

[02:23] Jessica: Yes.

[02:24] Meg: I went to college in the Northeast, but then I went to graduate school in California, and that's when I was introduced to things that were just not New York at all.

[02:36] Jessica: Yeah. Guess what? The Midwest in the 80s, not New York.

[02:40] Meg: I'm curious when you had or if you had an experience with a Jacuzzi in the 80s.

[02:47] Jessica: I mean, that's such a weird, open question. But it's funny. Like, one thing occurred to me that I didn't even do this, but it struck me as, like, who does this at Kenyon? You know, winters were pretty beastly.

[03:05] Meg: Yeah.

[03:05] Jessica: And they did all kinds of things to make it less, you know, deeply depressing, and I forgot what it was. Or if it Was like associated with a frat or something. But they had a giant hot tub Jacuzzi, like a huge one right on middle path outside of like where the. One of the upper classmen, a small dormitory entrance was. And it was snowing. You know, there was snow every place. And so all of these people would sit in the Jacuzzi wearing, you know, hats and then come flying out and roll in the snow and then go get back in it.

[03:42] Meg: That sounds like fun if you're into.

[03:45] Jessica: That kind of thing.

[03:46] Meg: But that, that counts, I guess.

[03:48] Jessica: Yes.

[03:49] Meg: My sources are American Swing, which is a documentary. The Washington Post, New York Times, Village Voice, and Time magazine.

[04:01] Jessica: You didn't ask me if I'd been to a key party, though.

[04:05] Meg: No, I did not. Have you?

[04:08] Jessica: No, but I did go to a party at Kenyon freshman year. I didn't stay for the real shenanigans, but they did again, like it was so. It was Midwest, this tiny school. And what are you going to do? You're going to do drugs and have sex? And so they had naked cocktail. Like it was the artsy kids, naked cocktail parties. And everyone would get in, stripped down and then lock the door. So. Yeah, but that wasn't for me.

[04:36] Meg: Yeah, but you didn't do that. But others did.

[04:40] Jessica: Yeah, like I went to the pre party, but I was like, I'm not stripping down for you freaks. Forget it.

[04:46] Meg: On November 12, 1985, Philip Kurile, an undercover police officer with the public morals division, paid $45 and entered Plato's Retreat.

[05:00] Jessica: Oh, I just love Plato's Retreat. It's come up now like four times. I love it.

[05:06] Meg: Plato's Retreat was a swingers club for straight couples and bisexual women at in 1985, at least it was at 509 West 34th. A man approached Philip and offered him a blowjob for $10.

[05:23] Jessica: It's a good price.

[05:25] Meg: Later, a woman offered more elaborate services for 25. Earlier that week, the city had shut down the Mine Shaft, the gay S and M bar in the Village. Under the new anti AIDS health code, which banned oral and anal sex between men, the 13 member New York State Health Council determined AIDS any establishment, and I'm putting that in quotes, that permitted, quote, high risk sexual activity, which they declared was anal sex and fellatio, would be shuttered. The emergency regulation would be in effect for 60 days. At first, only gay bath houses were targeted for closure. At that time, heterosexual activity was not considered risky. But there was a newly adopted anti discrimination law that said gay people could not be refused Employ housing or services. So Ed Koch directed inspectors to check out Plato's Retreat, just to be fair, but let's back up a few short years to 1977. Plato's retreat was the creation of Larry Levinson, the son of a kosher butcher in Brooklyn and a high school friend of Al Goldstein.

[06:44] Jessica: It all comes together. Do we make the meat market joke or no, you just say, okay, move on.

[06:51] Meg: I mean, can you imagine? They went to high school together, Al Goldstein and well, they had to go.

[06:55] Jessica: To high school somewhere.

[06:56] Meg: I mean, imagine being teachers in that.

[06:59] Jessica: High school that, that. Well, let's hope they weren't in the same classroom. But maybe they were like, they were friends, well behaved. They were really just got freaky later.

[07:09] Meg: Anyway, so when Larry was still a family man, he met a woman at a cocktail bar who introduced him to her husband and the swinging lifestyle. Now, swingers at the time described themselves as committed couples who had consensual recreational sex openly with other people. I do not know if it is a term that is used now or if it's changed its definition. So I'm being specific that this is the 1977 definition.

[07:39] Jessica: That is the. That is the way in which I've always understood it.

[07:43] Meg: Larry was smitten. His wife less so. So he got a divorce and opened his first swingers club in 1977 in the basement of the Kenmore Hotel on East 23rd street between Lexington and 3rd.

[07:58] Jessica: Are you kidding me?

[07:59] Meg: No, I'm not. Which I pass every single day on my way to the gym. Now, it is a single room occupancy hotel. I did a little bit of a deep dive on the former Kenmore Hotel. Fascinating history, but I don't have time to tell it right now. But I think I might do that for a future story. It's. I mean, it's just freaking wild.

[08:19] Jessica: I am so excited.

[08:21] Meg: That same year, apparently with an infusion of mob money, he moved Plato's Retreat to the basement of the Ansonia at 74th and Broadway, where the Continental Baths had had its heyday. Now, the Continental Baths, Continental Boughs was a gay bathhouse in the early 70s, late 60s that featured a young Bette Midler singing with Barry Manilow on piano. Other acts, Melissa Manchester, Ellen Green, the Manhattan Transfer, Waylon Flowers.

[08:53] Jessica: Oh, well, that's not a surprise.

[08:55] Meg: Nell Carter.

[08:57] Jessica: Aw.

[08:58] Meg: And it was this huge pool, but. And these are amazing acts, right? But the problem, the bath house slash cabaret club business model was its downfall because gay patrons stopped coming because they felt they were being gawked at by the people coming to hear the music. And the Continental baths closed in 1976, just in time for Plato's Retreat to swoop in. The rules for Plato's Retreat were it was a members only establishment, paid 25, no men unaccompanied by a female. No male on male. Sexual activity. Woman on woman was encouraged. Unaccompanied women got in free. No alcohol or drugs because they had no liquor license and no paid sexual services. But all of that was very hard to enforce. And quaaludes were a big deal at Plato's Retreat, so people were smuggling, so.

[09:57] Jessica: They were super mellow.

[09:59] Meg: There was a heated Olympic sized swimming pool, a steam sauna, 60 person Jacuzzi. Wait, a 60 person Jacuzzi?

[10:10] Jessica: I can't think of anything I would less like to be in than a simmering bowl of other people's ick.

[10:18] Meg: Oh, just hold on a second. There was a clothing optional disco floor.

[10:25] Jessica: Oh, that's not gonna look good.

[10:28] Meg: A free buffet featuring lasagna, meatballs, lo mein.

[10:34] Jessica: What?

[10:36] Meg: Apparently Larry was really into the buffet. He was just like, very proud of it. And some people were like, yeah, you can really, you know, get your money's.

[10:46] Jessica: Worth loading up on lasagna before you get.

[10:49] Meg: And other people were like, that's disgusting.

[10:52] Jessica: Yeah, that. That doesn't. It seems both unhygienic and just too heavy for the activities on. On deck.

[11:01] Meg: A labyrinth of thinly walled private rooms. A backgammon lounge.

[11:09] Jessica: Random.

[11:09] Meg: I mean, backgammon, quaaludes, Bill Cosby. All part of the whole scene. Not that Bill Cosby went to. But Bill Cosby talks about. Talks a lot about how the 70s were about backgammon and quaaludes.

[11:22] Jessica: Really?

[11:23] Meg: Yes, but I don't think that he ever went to Plato's Retreat. Otherwise I feel like I would have come across that fact. And the mattress room.

[11:32] Jessica: I just barfed again.

[11:34] Meg: The mattress room was especially intimidating. According to those who lived to tell the tale, it was just a writhing pile of naked bodies. Now, celebrities and porn stars and wall street types would visit, but really the bread and butter was bridge and tunnel.

[11:54] Jessica: Isn't that always the case?

[11:56] Meg: Quote kinky types from the suburbs, dry cleaners and their wives, or fat men in toupees with their heavily made up girlfriends. That's a quote from the Sky's the Limit by Stephen Gaines. One woman. And buckle your seatbelts for this. I should have this. This is actually a trigger.

[12:14] Jessica: Lean back. All right.

[12:16] Meg: One woman described swimming naked in the pool while men lined both sides Ejaculating over her like fountains.

[12:28] Jessica: Into the pool.

[12:29] Meg: Yes.

[12:30] Jessica: I can't. No. There's not enough chlorine in the world to make that not the worst thing.

[12:41] Meg: I mean, what? To make extra money, Larry opened the club for kid parties during the day. When are they cleaning this place?

[12:50] Jessica: What?

[12:51] Meg: When?

[12:52] Jessica: What?

[12:53] Meg: They clean what?

[12:55] Jessica: Like pool party. And the pool is just so awful. Oh, my God. Oh my God.

[13:02] Meg: Were there no Germaphones in the late 70s?

[13:07] Jessica: What? Did the parents know?

[13:10] Meg: Of course they did. It's a big sign that says Plato's Retreat.

[13:14] Jessica: That's only for the most. I mean, that's for parents who were having a laugh. Like, they had to have been just like, this is so dumb.

[13:23] Meg: Did they touch anything?

[13:25] Jessica: Did they wrap their children in Saran Wrap?

[13:30] Meg: For a while it worked well and everyone was happy. There were more women than men. And if the woman said no, that was respected. This is from a Times magazine article. Quote, the guy who wrote the article went to Plato's Retreat and just wrote an article about what he witnessed there. A tough looking woman stands at the liquor Less bar wearing only a flowered blouse and high heels. A bartender whispers, oh, she's got the.

[13:58] Jessica: Winnie the Pooh outfit on.

[14:00] Meg: It's so true. Also, I've seen the videos. There was no landscaping happening.

[14:06] Jessica: Oh, it's the seven. No, this is. That's the era of Big Bush. Let's say it. Okay.

[14:12] Meg: A bartender whispers to her, tell him to ask me himself. She snaps. I don't deal through intermediaries. She has been married for 15 years and swinging for 13. Now she is jaded. She will only settle for, quote, a man with hunger in his eyes and. No.

[14:30] Jessica: Oh, like the Eric Carman song, Hungry Eyes. Isn't that like. Wasn't that the Dirty Dancing.

[14:37] Meg: Oh, hungry eyes.

[14:38] Jessica: Yeah, sorry. I'm sorry. My tone was not recognizable and no.

[14:43] Meg: Hungry eyed man had happened by for three nights. So she strolls off to proposition a woman. Close quote. The article goes on to say, quote. Oddly enough, there is less sexual electricity in the air than at a Rotary Club party. All the trappings of the normal sexual dance talk, gestures and clothing are stripped away as unessential and emotions are under tight control as a result. The proceedings are amiable but flat. Close quote. The mat man of the mattress room is quoted as saying, we never have any troubles here. These are good people. I'm more of a shepherd looking after my flock.

[15:26] Jessica: Oh, that's so sweet.

[15:27] Meg: His main role was to make sure that the male female ratio stayed intact. Couples did not have to stay together in the mattress room. But if a man leaves to go to the bathroom, he has two minutes to return or. Or his girlfriend will be ejected. Interesting. And exchanging phone numbers is the cardinal sin of swinging because it can lead to emotional attachments. Now, as long as the rules were followed, life was good. Larry and Al once had a contest for who could ejaculate more in 24 hours.

[16:04] Jessica: I read about this. So there is a book written by. Now I have to find out who wrote it. It was lent to me by. By you. What was it? You. You. You had a crazy book about you. You gave it to me, and you were like, you're gonna love this. It's about totally messed up New York. And it was written by a guy who was, like, working for the New York press or something, and he did all of these, like, seamy underbellies of New York stories. And one of I. And I think that this was him. That was his article. Yes. Yes.

[16:38] Meg: All right.

[16:39] Jessica: I. Mm.

[16:41] Meg: Do you remember who won?

[16:43] Jessica: Larry.

[16:43] Meg: Larry won 15 times in 24 hours.

[16:46] Jessica: I mean, the fact that he was still alive. You know what it was? The lasagna. He was fortified. That's why he wanted that hot buffet so very badly.

[17:00] Meg: But 1980 ruined everything. Upper west side neighbors were getting grumpy about the single guys lined up outside trying to pick up women so they could get in. And Larry's girlfriend, Mary, who was his business partner and public female face of Plato's Retreat, was less committed to the swinger rules as Larry and had an emotional relationship with their limo driver. That slut. Well, no, she just wanted love. Really is the opposite.

[17:32] Jessica: I was kidding.

[17:33] Meg: The limo driver ended up beating Larry to a pulp. And then the neighbors association paid Larry $1 million to leave the Ansonia and to relocate to 509 W 34th St. Now, the new cavernous space, which is now a parking garage, did not have the same ambiance. Larry was sent away for tax evasion in 1981, and by the time he got back in 1984, the rules were not being followed. Sex workers had infiltrated and brought with them a harder, scarier vibe. They started having singles nights that would start with male strippers to get the women in the mood. Then they would let in a bunch of horny guys and mix in prostitutes and cocaine.

[18:27] Jessica: That's just. No, it's just so unhappy.

[18:30] Meg: Well, right. And. And originally, when it was at the Ansonia, people actually described it as wholesome.

[18:36] Jessica: Right. Rotary Club.

[18:37] Meg: And this was down and dirty. And then there was aids. Many people were spooked and stayed home. The ones who continued to have group sex were more hardcore and self destructive, which affected the mood of the place considerably. Larry insisted that the intense amount of chlorine on the premises killed off the AIDS virus.

[19:03] Jessica: Oh, Larry.

[19:04] Meg: But it was a hard sell. There was definitely anal sex and fellatio going down on November 12th.

[19:11] Jessica: Going down, 1985.

[19:13] Meg: But that's not what shut them down. It was the prostitution, which was a much easier charge to prove. Plato's Retreat reopened briefly in December, with Larry pledging all profits would go to AIDS research, but was shut down permanently on New Year's Eve 1985. Larry fell on hard times, living in a basement apartment in Queens and driving a cab before dying at 62 in 1999 after quadruple bypass heart surgery. So much for those meatballs.

[19:46] Jessica: I was just going to say La Salt. Yeah.

[19:50] Meg: Back in the good old days, Larry told a reporter for the Washington Post, you go to singles bars and what do you get. All that bullshit. How rich the guy is, what he can do for you. Ever met a married man at a singles bar? Nah, of course not. Everyone says he's single. You go home with him, can't wait to get rid of him. Right. But here, here at Plato's, it's refreshing. No bullshit, no telephone numbers, exchange after a sexual affair, he takes her back to the bar. You don't have to listen to all that crap. You ask the guy, who are you with? He tells you, he says, I'm here with my wife. To me that's solid. That's refreshing. No bullshit.

[20:33] Jessica: He's not wrong.

[20:36] Meg: I. It was a special time, I guess. Well, it's. It's hard. I. I do not see the appeal at all. But I. In the documentary, I saw a lot of interviews with women who were just like, it was fantastic. I loved it.

[20:58] Jessica: Well, there's. I mean, it was an early peeling back of sexual. I wouldn't say mores, but rules for women in the way. And it's interesting that it all started with bath houses, because men being given free reign, gay, straight or otherwise, to simply want sex and want it in an uncomplicated way that's from the dawn of time. I think that the appeal for certain women must have been that they were playing by the same rules.

[21:30] Meg: Yeah. And that it was empowering.

[21:31] Jessica: Right.

[21:32] Meg: But then you sort of dig just a slightly deeper and the homophobia of it is unsettling.

[21:41] Jessica: This is gonna sound ridiculous. When was it ever easy to be gay? Right.

[21:47] Meg: I'm Just saying that. I think that it, in fact, was incredibly patriarchal. The setup at Plato's Retreat, even though it didn't seem that way surface.

[21:57] Jessica: Well, of course, it was created by Larry Levinson and his headspace.

[22:02] Meg: Right.

[22:03] Jessica: And. Yeah, I mean, it was for him.

[22:06] Meg: It was for him.

[22:08] Jessica: That's it. And so was it clever? And was. Was it a byproduct for a certain kind of woman who would want to explore her liberation in that way? Sure. Was it also for women who wanted to please their men? Right, right. Like, what are the motivations, you know.

[22:28] Meg: What ended up happening with Mary? Nothing good. No one ever knew her last name, which I think is very interesting. And when she and Larry did break up, she ended up working on the street as a prostitute. And then she disappeared. You know, nobody knows what happened after that. But not a happy ending.

[22:48] Jessica: Unsurprising, I think that.

[22:50] Meg: But she went on all those shows. She sat next to him, you know, on Donahue and all those shows, going like, yes, I love it too. It is wonderful for me, she was the female face used, you know, he used her.

[23:05] Jessica: Right. And that's the thing.

[23:06] Meg: And couldn't have given a crap what she wanted long term.

[23:09] Jessica: I wonder, is it that he didn't give a crap or that it didn't even occur to him to give a crap?

[23:14] Meg: I don't know.

[23:15] Jessica: Right. I think that's even a more frightening question. Rather than making a nasty decision, not knowing you have a decision. Well, Larry Levinson and his pool of jizz sounds really, really unappetizing and of a moment.

[23:31] Meg: Seriously. I mean, now think about it. Now we walk around with, like, Purell, like, puerile fiends.

[23:40] Jessica: What I also love is that. And I love also that he must have gotten the idea of doing the children's parties because of the Roxy Roller Rink. Right. And so. Oh, well, they can do it. And it's a gay club. But then, no. No one was jizzing in a pool for children to roll in, Larry. No. It's so gross. It's like, I actually have, like, a little gag reflex.

[24:08] Meg: And it wasn't like, okay, a lot of this is pre. A lot of the story is pre aids.

[24:13] Jessica: I. That would be a great, great name for the club, Larry Levinson's jizz pool.

[24:19] Meg: But there were other sexually transmitted diseases. It wasn't like people were. We've talked about it on the show.

[24:25] Jessica: It's the tragedy of herpes.

[24:27] Meg: I know.

[24:28] Jessica: The tragedy of chlamydia.

[24:30] Meg: So, like crabs. I mean, it's.

[24:33] Jessica: What. What don't You. You can. Yeah.

[24:35] Meg: They knew that they. They knew it was gross. They knew it was gross.

[24:39] Jessica: And I'm sure that for them it was. No, not for some reason. That was. Absolutely. Because then it's their big male gross. Think about it for. I'm even getting a better picture now. It's this big sweaty, hairy male gross playground where you. Okay, I'm gonna be Larry Levinson for a minute. So you got naked chicks walking around and you got some meatballs and then you got. You know, you don't have to actually chat someone up. You could just wave your dick at them.

[25:08] Meg: And now you don't have to have a conversation. You don't have to.

[25:12] Jessica: You don't have to do anything. You just to show up, be like, meatball. And then miraculously, some. Some foolish woman would be like, that's a pretty good looking meatball, Larry Levinson. I need to get up in that. Or maybe I'd like some lo mein. Sign me up. But it's. It. The whole thing is geared to be the easiest lay for the grossest men. It seems like it's like incel. Paradise. Incels didn't exist at the time because of Plato's. Plato's Retreat. All you had to do is to convince some hooker to go with you. Right. Pretend you're my girlfriend.

[26:02] Meg: Oh, that. Yeah, that totally happened.

[26:04] Jessica: And you get a free meal. That's it. That's it. Any woman who was there, if it was really on her own steam, I feel pretty certain that at least five years later she would be having a what was I thinking? Kind of moment.

[26:22] Meg: Well, they interview a few of them in this documentary, which is really good. And they swear it was like it was the best thing that ever happened.

[26:28] Jessica: Well, they don't want to turn back now. They certainly look foolish. I don't know. How can we possibly understand sexuality of the late 70s.

[26:38] Meg: Exactly my point exactly.

[26:40] Jessica: And thank God we can't. In a very short time, you'll see what our tie in is.

[26:57] Meg: I'm very excited about that.

[27:00] Jessica: So I began our journey today by doing my favorite thing, which is what happened on this day in. So I chose 1982. And I don't know why I did it. Just felt like the right year.

[27:14] Meg: Okay.

[27:15] Jessica: I don't know why I was feeling early.

[27:18] Meg: All right.

[27:19] Jessica: Okay. We were about to enter 8th grade together. My first year knowing you. Maybe that's why. Maybe that's why it felt just so right. So I'm scrolling through the newspaper and I'm looking like, what? What's going on. There's all kinds of weird information. And like, I didn't know this, that the New York school system had to desegregate teachers. Isn't that interesting? Because, right. White teachers were in Manhattan primarily, and teachers who were not white were in the outer boroughs. So they were actually busing teachers. So there's like a whole flap over that. And as I kept going and I'm always like, oh, what's in arts section and what's in metro section? What caught my eye was that there's an article by Pulitzer prize winning, but by no means at that time, author Anna Quindlen. And it had the very oblique title about New York. And I was like, huh, where are we gonna go with this? So I'm gonna do a little reading. Okay. Okay. And this also made me think of our friend Travis. The dark sedan went down the street in the Greenpoint section of Brooklyn, then backed up and went down the street again. The car had red and white Indiana plates. So did all the other cars parked on the street. The people who live in the neighborhood sat on the stoops. A young man in a sweatshirt with an easy ambling walk came down the street after the car had backed up for the second time. That's the murderer, Detective John Lafferty of the New York City Police Department said quietly. I hope we get a good confession from him today. They were making a movie in Greenpoint, and Detective Lafferty, a rangy man with straw colored hair, wants the same ginger shade as his eyebrows, was helping them. The television movie is tentatively called Track down, and Detective Lafferty is the technical consultant.

[29:13] Meg: Okay.

[29:14] Jessica: One of its stars is a former New York City police officer. One of its producers, Sonny Grosso, is a former city detective who helped crack the French Connection case.

[29:26] Meg: Fascinating.

[29:28] Jessica: The movie is about the police search for a young man who murdered a teacher he met in a bar on New Year's Day. Detective Lafferty knows something about that. On January 3, 1973, he was a detective with the 4th District Homicide Squad. The phone rang a report of a woman stabbed to death in a studio apartment on 72nd street west of Broadway. Who's up? Detective Lafferty said, looking around his office. He was. And so he began to investigate the murder of Roseanne Quinn. Do you know who Roseanne Quinn was?

[30:01] Meg: No, I don't.

[30:03] Jessica: We sealed off all the entrances to the building, Detective Lafferty recalled as he watched the sedan approach a gray two story building. In a scene meant to show the moment when New York City detectives finally tracked the killer to his brother's home in Indianapolis. There was no way he could have gotten out of there. Even if he could have, I'd have jumped off the roof to get the guy. Our tie in today is looking for Mr. Goodbar. Oh, so in 1973, totally. Roseanne Quinn, schoolteacher for deaf kids. Like, could it be more perfect for TV or movie? I think not. She is murdered in her home by someone ostensibly who she picked up from a bar.

[30:49] Meg: Right.

[30:50] Jessica: And so I did a little bit of a dive into the Mr. Goodbar book and then the movie that was based on the book.

[30:59] Meg: Okay, let me just. The story that you started with about the filming in Greenpoint is not the.

[31:05] Jessica: Filming of Looking for Mr. Goodbar, the film which was 1977.

[31:09] Meg: Okay.

[31:10] Jessica: In 1973, it's just Lafferty. Ms. Quinn was murdered. 75. The book Looking for Mr. Goodbar came out. 77. The movie with Diane Keaton came out in 1982. They are filming another movie about the murder of Roseanne Quinlan. And Lafferty is the technical consultant because he was actually the cop on the job.

[31:38] Meg: Got it.

[31:39] Jessica: And that's what Anna Quindlen is describing is what it is to be on set for this film that's about something that happened in New York nine years earlier.

[31:50] Meg: Got it.

[31:50] Jessica: What I thought was really fascinating because, of course, then I went back and I looked at the original murder and then the Diane Keaton movie and what was so shocking to me, and we were just talking about sexual mores and, like, what's okay for women and, you know, what's female behavior socially and what's male behavior. And so the way that this whole thing was portrayed was really that it was her fault and that she was risky behavior. That's the. That's the phrase that she was doing drugs, she was picking up men in bars. She was doing P.S. what everybody else did. It wasn't unique. It wasn't special. She was just the kind of person who. That wasn't supposed to happen to. She was white. She was a schoolteacher for deaf kids.

[32:48] Meg: Right.

[32:49] Jessica: It made for a great. A great story.

[32:51] Meg: Who did kill her? Like, who? Was there anything interesting about the guy?

[32:55] Jessica: No, he was just a pickup.

[32:58] Meg: But anything more about why he did that?

[33:02] Jessica: Because he was a murderer.

[33:04] Meg: But had he done something like that before? Did he have a violent background?

[33:08] Jessica: Let us read on.

[33:09] Meg: Okay.

[33:09] Jessica: It will be 10 long years next month since Detective Lafferty caught the Roseanne Quinn case on his first day back from vacation. But he still remembers every bit of it. The murder of the 28 year old teacher of deaf children was a big story in New York City. It exposed the sad underside of the holidays. So that's why this is a topical story as well, of the holidays and of the life led by young men and women alone on their own. It was important because in some ways it was typical. Roseanne Quinn met a man in a bar. She brought him home. Only the ending was different from the thousand other nights in a thousand other bars. She was murdered. Five months later in jail, her murderer killed himself. Mr. Grosso was one of dozens of detectives who canvassed the streets around Roseanne Quinn's building for information about her life or death. I always wanted to do a movie about this, said Mr. Grosso, whose projects in television and movies since he left the force have revolved around police work. It's a chance to highlight what good detective work is. Steve Kalura, who plays a detective in the film, was a police officer from 68 to 75. I was an actor and Sonny talked me into joining the department. He said, he said to me, I want to show you what the real acting is. He took me up to Harlem and made an undercover drug buy. Mr. Kalura was one of the undercover officers assigned to pick up street information on the Quinn murder. So what I also thought was really interesting is that 10 years have gone by. So the book and the movie, the original ones were about the woman, right? And about, look what happens when you make bad decisions. This movie ten years later is a procedural and it's how did we catch him? It was about the crime and not how she made moral mistakes.

[35:04] Meg: Okay.

[35:05] Jessica: So I thought that was very interesting. It's kind of like, how does this, how does our look at these kinds of crimes? And we look at a lot of them on this show, right? Like every person who's been made into soup and fed to homeless people or have body parts on the headboard.

[35:22] Meg: But it also makes sense because certainly in the late 70s and early 80s, people became very interested in policemen's stories and experiences. Indeed, that became quite the genre 10 years ago.

[35:37] Jessica: It was important for John Lafferty, son of Irish parents from the Bronx, to find the killer, Roseanne Quinn. Today, it is important to him that the story be told right. George Siegel is playing a detective who's loosely modeled on Detective Lafferty. George Siegel, who ruled the early 80s and 70s. If you don't know who he is, we're going to have to have a photo of him. Like to say ubiquitous is to not even cover It. There are all those important little touches in the movie, like the fact that the killer ordered a 7 and 7 in a bar and mispronounced Chablis, leading detectives to suspect that he might have been from out of town.

[36:14] Meg: Ooh, right, because New Yorkers know how to say Chablis.

[36:17] Jessica: I wonder what he did say, like Shablis. Right, but that would mean that he had a reading vocabulary of it. That's interesting. Maybe he was reading a sign.

[36:26] Meg: Yeah, he was reading something off the menu. I'll have the chaplet.

[36:29] Jessica: Oh, the chablet. Yes, of course. I just imagine him bellying up to the bar and announcing chablets for all.

[36:37] Meg: So, wait, and he lived where? Indianapolis.

[36:40] Jessica: Indianapolis.

[36:41] Meg: And they tracked him there?

[36:42] Jessica: Yes. Lafferty said, this is like a mirror, but don't make me sound showbiz. I'm on vacation. I'm going back to my real job as soon as this is over. Over. Detective Lafferty has enjoyed the temporary work. A precinct house was constructed on a pier in the Hudson river for the production. And Detective Lafferty says it's even nicer than the one where he now works.

[37:02] Meg: I bet.

[37:03] Jessica: He says he never saw looking for Mr. Goodbar, the movie said to have been inspired by Ms. Quinn's life. And he says that one reason he decided to work on this movie is because it focuses on the police investigation, not the victim's life. Even at this point, I'm very concerned about the family, he said. I know how my mother would feel if she had to have all this stuff dug up again. The last thing I want is to hurt the family.

[37:27] Meg: Interesting.

[37:28] Jessica: So, yeah, I thought it was really interesting. And so for me, this little moment, this finding, this little article brought a lot of things together. Anna Quindlen, at the beginning of her career, she had been working for the Post, graduated up to the New York Times. A woman writing about the murder of another woman 10 years earlier. And she's in a power position because she's writing the story. So that's kind of interesting. And then, as I said, like, they'll look back on how women's fate was treated in reality and in pop culture.

[38:03] Meg: Right. And then there's sexual liberation.

[38:04] Jessica: Exactly. And that sexual liberation or experimentation, exploration, Exploration, Larry Levinson, will inevitably lead to disaster.

[38:17] Meg: No, I mean, in one case, Ask.

[38:21] Jessica: Mary no Name Fair.

[38:23] Meg: But there were lots of women. I'm just, you know, there were lots of women interviewed.

[38:26] Jessica: No, I'm not saying that I agree with it. Obviously, you know, it was just. It was just a Snapshot of, like, what happened in 10 years? Like, how. What's the difference in looking at a crime in 10 years? And to have it through the lens of a liberated woman who was not the age of the woman who was killed. She's a bit younger. And the police officer who saw it all and that his response at this time in his life is, leave the family out of it.

[38:58] Meg: Right.

[38:59] Jessica: That the lurid part of the story was no longer appealing.

[39:02] Meg: I mean, the implication is that he felt like it had been sensationalized and blamed the victim.

[39:09] Jessica: So clearly we don't need to work too hard on a tie in today.

[39:23] Meg: So our tie in is women's sexual liberation exploration. Exploration with a lot of questions and consequences.

[39:34] Jessica: I mean, it's so interesting. The other thing that I really enjoy examining is that. But sometimes, you know, you have to read these stories a few times because you have to cut through the bias.

[39:47] Meg: Oh, yeah.

[39:48] Jessica: And you have to kind of be a detective yourself when you read these newspaper stories because you're like, okay, how can I strip everything away and find the facts?

[39:58] Meg: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you remember our first story was Connie Crispel. And oh, my God, that man, the man who wrote that article about her, it was dripping with condemnation. And I was like, hold on a second. She seems to be doing pretty well by my estimation. Fuck off, Judgy judgeson.

[40:20] Jessica: Jerry the judge Judgeson.

[40:22] Meg: And that. And he was. I can't remember his name now, but that reporter was very well respected. But for him to be the storyteller, it just puts this particular stamp on it.

[40:34] Jessica: Yeah. I mean, condemnation and in a way, how else would he think of it? Right? Because that's how he was programmed.

[40:40] Meg: Right.

[40:41] Jessica: You know, and it's. And it's. It's appalling and galling to have to admit, like, oh, well, you know, that hideous bias that we bump up against now. You know, it wasn't that that person was particularly horrible or narrow minded. It was. It's so much in the water. Larry Levinson's water. No. Oh, my God. I think everyone who's ever done anything nasty to a woman should be forced to soak in the Larry Levinson pool with their mouth open. Yeah.

[41:16] Meg: Oh, God. Now, okay, here's an interesting question. So many pools in New York. All these bath houses, all these apartments that had pools in the basement.

[41:27] Jessica: That's.

[41:28] Meg: That's crazy.

[41:28] Jessica: That's luxury, baby. That's living high on the hog.

[41:32] Meg: Yeah. I wonder what's up with the Ansonia pool now. Well, the other thing ever gonna Go in it.

[41:37] Jessica: Who knows? I mean, what struck me as interesting that was that it was the Ansonia, right? Which is like a really nice building.

[41:43] Meg: Incredibly so.

[41:44] Jessica: Like, what the hell? It's like saying, well, in the basement of the Dakota, there was a wild leather club, you know, with big, fat.

[41:53] Meg: Hairy men in there.

[41:55] Jessica: And secretary. I can't get over the food. Okay, I'm just gonna be honest with you. That's the detail. The pool of jizz and the. And the lasagna. I will never, ever get over it. That's the thing. And that's how I know who Larry Levinson was. It says everything. It's like, I know what he looks like. I know what his focus is. I know what he's like to talk to. I know.

[42:18] Meg: How were their napkins?

[42:20] Jessica: Ew.

[42:20] Meg: Were they wiping their hands off?

[42:22] Jessica: Were their napkins.

[42:24] Meg: Sweaty body?

[42:25] Jessica: I love you. Were there napkins? No, they were just hosed off in the wet room afterwards. Do you know what I mean? Like, the person who's like, sex and lasagna is like, it's only working on the most base instincts, right? It's like a step up for. He's manimal. He's a manimal.

[42:49] Meg: I also describe these little disco bags that were like velvet pouches that had Plato's Retreat written on them. That was their merch. Could get that.

[43:00] Jessica: Was it like a proto fanny pack of some kind? So you'd, like, carry around, like, your locker keys and a. You know, if you're lucky, a condom maybe?

[43:11] Meg: I do not think there were any condoms.

[43:13] Jessica: Maybe some penicillin was in there. I don't know, a Z pack, something.

[43:19] Meg: I think it was for your Quaaludes in your lock.

[43:21] Jessica: Oh, my God, you're right. It was the Quaaludes. Yes, Quaaludes. Oh, and your lipstick. Maybe. Maybe you had, like, you gotta reapply every time. Exactly. Every time. So, yeah. And I think about poor Roseanne Quinn, who's out there, you know, lonely, looking for love. And the Larry Levinson's are bellying up to the bar. All the faces at Plato's Retreat staring back at Roseanne Quinn. Bad. Very bad. But I mean, think about it like, yeah, looking for Mr. Goodbar. Because there's a sea of creeps. It must have been. I mean, they're always creeps. But that was like licensed creeps. Creeps. Creeps who have been given a stamp of approval.

[44:08] Meg: A single woman in the 70s must have sucked.

[44:13] Jessica: Yes.

[44:14] Meg: You think?

[44:16] Jessica: I think that if you were a single woman past 25, it would have sucked. Because the goal was still to get married. And you married before you were 30, right? Right. So if you were anywhere from 25 to 35, I mean, honestly, can you even imagine? No, because you have the social pressure to hook up, right? Like, if you are not married, you have failed. So you're more likely to marry a Larry Levinson. Oh, God, I keep throwing up in my mouth every time I think about him.