[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we

[00:27] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines, and

[00:31] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:32] Meg: What was the most exciting thing that happened to us last week?

[00:37] Jessica: I was in London. I don't know. What was the most exciting thing that happened to us?

[00:43] Meg: The cartoon.

[00:44] Jessica: Oh, that was insane. That was like, I want to. I want to put it on T shirts. I want to put it on my business card. I want to have a tattoo of it.

[00:54] Meg: We have to make a plan to just like, yeah, we're going to get a billboard of it.

[00:59] Jessica: Yes. And for those who may not have seen our Instagram, why don't you say what happened to us? Because you were the first one to see it.

[01:07] Meg: Yeah. On my way to the airport coming back from Puerto Rico, I was like, oh, my God, Guy Richard Smith, who is a New Yorker cartoonist, among other amazing things that he does with his life and his art, did a cartoon of Jessica and me walking down the street in Yorkville talking about life, and it's a spitting image of us. It's so crazy. And also, just, like, there's so much about it that just, like, I feel seen.

[01:39] Jessica: I feel very seen. What I love about it is that, like, he got our body language perfectly, like one. I forgot who it was, but someone saw it and said to me, the way you walk, like, your gait is right there. Like, that is it. And the other wonderful thing about it, because this is. I'm sure this is just, you know, coincidence, but we talk about Yorkville so much, and we talk about, you know, the history of establishments and buildings that are there. And the Heidelberg Restaurant is the third character, really, in that cartoon. And it's funny because there's so much detail in that sign and, like, not much in our faces. And I was like, that's exactly right. Like, it's perfect. So he did an amazing job. And thank you, Guy, for doing that and letting us be your models.

[02:31] Meg: And I have one other thing to share.

[02:33] Jessica: Okay.

[02:34] Meg: BFF Joel.

[02:35] Jessica: Hi.

[02:36] Meg: Joel wrote in about Dee Snider. We're not gonna ticket from those Senate hearings in 1985.

[02:46] Jessica: Yes.

[02:46] Meg: Basically, this was Tipper Gore lambasting heavy metal music for a variety of reasons.

[02:53] Jessica: Well, and it was like Mothers or Parents Against Heavy Metal and had a whole coalition. They were putting stickers on albums saying that they weren't Suitable for kids and.

[03:03] Meg: Right. And they had. They invited De Snider and Frank Zappa and John Denver to testify. And De Snider showed up, I mean, wearing a tank top and crazy hair, but was so fraking smart in how he addressed these accusations. I read all of the testimony, actually, because then I kind of went down a little rabbit hole. And it is. It's actually.

[03:29] Jessica: No, no. He's amazing. Brilliant. And just so we're clear, the accusations are, were. That heavy metal was ruined. It was all of the stuff that Meg has actually talked about. Yeah. Like that it will rot your brain and cause you to kill yourself and other people.

[03:43] Meg: Right. And so Joel wrote in and said, Dee Snider was super impressive in those hearings and funny loping in. Frank Zappa and John Denver both caved by comparison. His most impressive statement to the question, how could you possibly listen to all the music your kids buy to know what it is? DE's response? My kids allowance is $7 a week. That only allows them to buy an album every two weeks. I have plenty of time for my kids. How much money you give your kids and how much time you have for them is your issue.

[04:18] Jessica: Nice.

[04:19] Meg: Like, nice.

[04:21] Jessica: Beautiful.

[04:22] Meg: Anyway, wanted to shower. Thank you, Joel.

[04:24] Jessica: Yay, Joel.

[04:26] Meg: All right, now, today's kind of special.

[04:28] Jessica: Today is very special.

[04:30] Meg: So what we're going to do, we're going to start with our usual format, and at the end, we're going to have a little surprise.

[04:37] Jessica: Yes. And I'm so looking forward to this little surprise because it is going to be a recurring feature on this podcast. It's the first time that we are. I think it's the first time during our regular scheduled programming that we are actually adding something to the format. So it's very cool.

[04:55] Meg: Yay. All right.

[04:56] Jessica: Yay.

[04:56] Meg: Let's go.

[04:56] Jessica: All right,

[05:07] Meg: So, Jessica, you grew up in Yorkville and you went to middle school and high school on East 92nd street, all the way on Fifth Avenue, close to Fifth Avenue, between Madison and Fifth. So that's quite a hike. It's also up a hill. Correct.

[05:26] Jessica: Yes.

[05:27] Meg: Did you.

[05:27] Jessica: Well, I went quite a hike. I mean, 82nd to night. So it's 10 blocks, and then from York Avenue to essentially Madison Avenue. What is that first? Second.

[05:39] Meg: That's a lot. Avenue blocks.

[05:42] Jessica: It's six Avenue blocks.

[05:44] Meg: Okay. So did you take the bus?

[05:47] Jessica: Well, this will amuse you. Good. If it was very cold or raining or whatever. I took the 86th street bus.

[05:54] Meg: Love it.

[05:55] Jessica: Or the 79th street crosstown and then the Madison Avenue bus. Uptown. However, our dear darling friend Alejandra, who is a. Has been a walking maniac since we were kids, would harangue me to walk. Cause she. She grew up on 83rd and East End, so she would come and get me. Or on our way back from school, she would collar me and be like, we're walking. And even at that age, I was in shape. Like it wasn't a question of being tired or creaky joints. I hated it. And she would promise me that we could stop at Hot and Crusty and get a snack on the way if I agreed to walk with her. And to this day, she is still haranguing me, saying that I'm going to rot if I don't walk with her. So that. That was the thing. I did take the bus, but I also walked.

[06:57] Meg: Okay, thank you for sharing.

[06:59] Jessica: My laziness. No, my innate laziness.

[07:03] Meg: Yes, my sources are the New York Times Action News because they have little outtakes on YouTube. So exciting. And a website called City Limits that just talks about the history of the city.

[07:19] Jessica: Okay, well, that sounds like a really useful feature.

[07:24] Meg: Like, where have you been? I gotta say, I had this sort of vision today as I was walking down the street with my phone in my hand doing some extra research on this story going. It's like, I have a library in my hand.

[07:37] Jessica: Oh, that's as good as it's the 80s in New York. But, yes, you have. You have got a library in your pocket, which is a subject matter. Libraries that we will get to at the end of this.

[07:51] Meg: That is true. Awesome. Okay. Ooh, that's a little teaser. On April 1, 1980, exactly 45 years ago, on the day this podcast dropped, 33,000 members of Transport Workers Union Local 100, known as TWU, walked off their jobs, halting all subway and bus lines in all five boroughs of New York City.

[08:20] Jessica: Hmm.

[08:20] Meg: The union president was John Law, who was an Irish immigrant who had arrived in New York in 1949 at the age of 30 and worked as an elevator repairman and bus cleaner before joining the transportation union. He was on the negotiating committee during the last citywide transportation strike in 1966 and had been elected president in 1977. He saw firsthand how city and state wages were not keeping up with inflation. Transit workers contracts were up for renewal in April 1980, and in anticipation of that, TWU prepared to demand a 21 month contract with a 30% wage increase.

[09:05] Jessica: 30%?

[09:06] Meg: Yes. Goodness. After all, the cost of living had gone up 53% since the last contract negotiation. Holy camoly, inflation.

[09:18] Jessica: Really insane.

[09:20] Meg: But in January, five months before the contract renewal, the MTA leaked to the press that due to their deficit, no wage increases were going to happen. Law's response, Quote, if management does not bargain in good faith and give us what we're entitled to, we will give them the strike that they are looking for. The MTA claimed the union was not allowed to strike. The Taylor Law, which was passed after the 1966 strike, specifically forbids any public union from going on strike. It's that whole essential service, essential workers.

[09:59] Jessica: Right.

[10:00] Meg: TWU said it was going to strike anyway. Humanity was more important than the law in this case. In an attempt to stave off the strike, the MTA offered a 3% wage increase and a 34 month contract. And DWU did not show up for work on April 1st. Yeah, like, no.

[10:25] Jessica: Yeah. 10%. Not so good. No. 3%. No, no. 10 of what they were looking for. Yeah. Yeah.

[10:33] Meg: Yes. Commuters scrambled to grab cabs. Some roller skated, rowed boats, or flew helicopters to work. I just have such an image of just like,

[10:49] Jessica: state of emergency, must get to Wall street now.

[10:52] Meg: Some big corporations had been reading the news and blocked off dozens of hotel rooms for their key employees. Some people figured out carpools. Women ditched their heels for sneakers and changed into pumps at their desks. A practice that was born during the strike and became an iconic symbol for the 9 to 5 80s. Really?

[11:16] Jessica: That's how that happened? Ugh, I love that. Yes.

[11:20] Meg: Then on April 2, the Long Island Railroad went on strike too. On the bright side, it was a beautiful spring week, and the 200,000 people who decided to bike to work had a lovely commute. On the downside, there was about $200 million in lost income, mostly in manufacturing jobs, because those people were commuting the furthest and couldn't afford alternative transportation. 20% of workers just couldn't commute. Get to work. 20% of workers astonishing this city. Five boroughs. All right. The morning of April 1st, Mayor Ed Koch was in an emergency meeting in an office near City hall, looking out towards the Brooklyn Bridge. He's freaking out about how the city would be impacted until he saw a wave of people coming over the bridge on foot. Foot. He likened it to when the Russians saved Leningrad from the Nazis by walking over the ice. Each day of the strike, from 6am to 8 and 5pm to 7, Koch went to a different city bridge to walk in solidarity, shouting, we won't let these bastards bring us to our knees. Bastards, meaning the MTA Workers.

[12:54] Jessica: Yeah.

[12:55] Meg: And he kept asking everyone, how am I doing? How am I doing?

[12:58] Jessica: As per usual. Oh, Ed.

[13:01] Meg: One day, a man on a bicycle approached Koch waving his finger, shouting, you're a strike breaker. And Koch shouted back, you're a wacko. But overall, Koch felt the strike changed the mood of the city for the good. It showed New York's defiance. Now, the fact the workers were also New Yorkers seemed to escape him. Like, just completely was not part of his picture at all.

[13:36] Jessica: He got himself so wrapped up in Leningrad that he couldn't let that go. He had dug a little hole for himself.

[13:44] Meg: A group of citizens called the west side Citizen Action staged a protest giving Koch the tokenism award for least effort to improve public transportation.

[13:58] Jessica: Ooh.

[13:58] Meg: They left wreaths at subway stops to commemorate the death of mass transit.

[14:04] Jessica: Wait, just. Just one second. What was the name of the award again?

[14:08] Meg: Tokenism Award.

[14:10] Jessica: So for those who may not. No. You know, long before Metro cards, which are about to be phased out as well, you got on public transportation with a token. So there were some. Some wits in there.

[14:23] Meg: Yeah. And in the end, as predicted by Koch, the MTA couldn't afford the wage hike, and subway and bus fares increased from 50 cents to 60 cents. And a year later, the MTA raised fares again, this time to 75 cents.

[14:43] Jessica: I actually really remember that.

[14:46] Meg: And people lost their minds. Minds. According to the New York Times, they were driven to a state of, quote, outrage bordering at times on hysteria. Quote. I really believe for the first time that there has to be a violent overthrow of government. Said one commuter.

[15:08] Jessica: Where are they now?

[15:10] Meg: I know.

[15:12] Jessica: Hello?

[15:13] Meg: The strike lasted 11 days. In the end, there was a compromise. The Union won a 9% raise in the first year and 8% in the second year, along with the cost of living adjustment.

[15:26] Jessica: So a total of 17%.

[15:28] Meg: TWU was fined $1 million for striking, and each worker was docked two days pay for each each of the 11 days they were out on strike. But the union felt it was worth it in the long run. When all was said and done, there were no winners and no losers. Except maybe Ed Koch, who considered the strike the most exciting moment of his reign as mayor. On April 12, Koch stood in Lower Manhattan, greeting people as they exited the Staten Island Ferry, cheering that the strike was over. Quote, I was protecting the city, and New York City wouldn't see another transit strike until 2005.

[16:16] Jessica: Wait, so he protected the city by kvetching as he walked over a bridge?

[16:19] Meg: Honestly, it is so strange to hear his interviews about all of this. It Is like he had this sort of out of body experience that seemed not really in touch to what was happening on the ground and the stakes. I mean, I'm sorry, but, like, shouldn't you care about whether the children, all

[16:42] Jessica: of the citizens of the city can

[16:45] Meg: afford to do this essential job? If they can't afford to do the essential job, like, that's an issue.

[16:52] Jessica: Well, tell that to the people in charge of the education department. It seems like Ed had a break with reality.

[17:01] Meg: Brief one, but I do kind of love that. Aside, the image of him seeing the waves of people coming over the Brooklyn Bridge and just being like, New York

[17:12] Jessica: City,

[17:15] Meg: we will rise.

[17:17] Jessica: Oh, my God. It is cinematic if nothing else. Yeah, there has. Why isn't there an Ed Koch biopic that has to happen?

[17:30] Meg: Maybe. Yeah, maybe they can now talk now that we're allowed to talk about the things we weren't allowed to talk about for so long.

[17:37] Jessica: You mean like, he's gay?

[17:38] Meg: Yeah. Now I can say that. Maybe we can have a boy. I mean, he had some really interesting best friends, too. Like, it would be a good biopic.

[17:48] Jessica: Wasn't Bess Meyerson.

[17:49] Meg: Yes.

[17:50] Jessica: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[17:51] Meg: Messy, messy.

[17:52] Jessica: I think. Yeah, I think it would be. I mean, and it would have to be done as high camp because otherwise, like, what a missed opportunity is actually

[18:00] Meg: such a freaking golden idea.

[18:03] Jessica: All right, anyone. Anyone who wants to work on this?

[18:07] Meg: Really? Really?

[18:08] Jessica: We've been approached about other documentaries, so if you want to do this, we are at the ready.

[18:14] Meg: Yes, absolutely. We have tons of ideas.

[18:17] Jessica: You can storyboard it. So this is one of my stories that sounds like it's gonna be one thing, but it's gonna take a left turn at Albuquerque.

[18:34] Meg: Okay.

[18:35] Jessica: Okay, so here's a quick quiz for you.

[18:37] Meg: Ah.

[18:38] Jessica: What do 675 Hudson street, the Flatiron Building, Delmonico's at 56 Beaver street and the Liberty Inn in the Meatpacking district have in common.

[18:54] Meg: They're all shaped like triangles.

[18:56] Jessica: Correct. Very good.

[18:58] Meg: Thank you.

[18:58] Jessica: Now, what I'm going to talk about is my favorite triangular building in the city, which is the northern dispensary, which is in the village at the intersection of Waverly and Waverly.

[19:13] Meg: Oh, my God, that's so confusing over there.

[19:15] Jessica: I know, right? And it was built in 1818 27. Now, here's something really fascinating. Pandemics, as we know, have been happening in this city for as long as there have been people. Well, in the 1820s, there was a cholera epidemic and people fled lower Manhattan for northern climes, which Brought them to the village, what is now the village.

[19:47] Meg: Oh, I see what you're saying.

[19:48] Jessica: And the Northern Dispensary was established as a hospital for poor people who were trying to get away from the pandemic. And it had a mandate, which was. Once the building was erected, it ha. Actually, I think the building was erected in 1831. But the dispense. The hospital itself was founded in 1827. The building, once it was built, there was a mandate that it always had to be used for health services for the underserved.

[20:21] Meg: Nice.

[20:22] Jessica: Interestingly, one of its famous patients was Edgar Allan Poe, who went there when he had a cold. Oh.

[20:30] Meg: So brought on by not taking care

[20:32] Jessica: of him, not taking care of himself, brought on by the drink. So this building is. If you have never seen it, look it up. And if you have seen it, you will know it's really beautiful. It's a federal style building, so it's incredibly simple. But the brick that it's made of is just this really beautiful, mellowed, rosy kind of color. And it was originally two stories. Then another story was added to accommodate more people. Now, this building followed the mandate for a very long time. And in the 1960s, it became the home of a dentistry practice for the poor. Well, that all sounds very good, doesn't it?

[21:19] Meg: It does.

[21:19] Jessica: Except in 1985, those dentists did something not very good, but very understandable at the time. But in hindsight, not so good. They refused to attend to the needs of people with AIDS and hiv. No. And so they were closed down. Now what happened?

[21:43] Meg: They were closed down because they weren't allowed to do that.

[21:46] Jessica: Correct.

[21:47] Meg: Okay, like who closed them down? The city did.

[21:49] Jessica: Yes. There was then a plan by the Catholic Archdiocese to create a. And this is really weird considering the Catholic Church's stance on everything. They wanted to create a 15 bed aids hospital in that building for indigent people. Wow. And you know the acronym not for

[22:14] Meg: their teeth, but for their.

[22:16] Jessica: Like it was going to be a residence for 15 people, basically. And, you know the acronym NIMBY? Not in my backyard.

[22:23] Meg: Yeah.

[22:24] Jessica: The residents of that area were like, fuck, no, we don't.

[22:28] Meg: We're rich.

[22:29] Jessica: Yes. We don't want this to become essentially an AIDS flop house. So no. Good. What happened was there was a bit of a wackadoo. His last name was Gottlieb, who would walk around New York City with a shopping bag filled with his papers and worked out of his car. But in fact, he was a real estate mogul and he was snapping up properties all over the city and then letting them lie fallow.

[23:03] Meg: Why?

[23:04] Jessica: Cause he's a nut.

[23:05] Meg: Oh, no. Master plan.

[23:07] Jessica: No, but except to, you know, by the time he died, his assets were in the billions of dollars. What? So he wound up being, without this being the intent, a major player in the preservation of historic buildings in New York. Because if they didn't completely fall apart, which they didn't, they were exactly as they had been. Oh, that's wild. And then, you know, whoever was going to use the building, eventually, you know, they could restore it. And that's what happened with my favorite building, my favorite triangular building. When he died, two of his. The people who of his heirs wound up wondering what to do with this building. Well, now, let's go back to 1985. So while the dentists were saying no, no, with AIDS and hiv, that is the year that God's Love We Deliver was founded. And God's Love We Deliver was founded by a woman. Her first name was Ganga, I think.

[24:19] Meg: Yeah, we've talked about her on the podcast.

[24:21] Jessica: Yes. But I just want to link her to this building. Yeah. So Ganga Stone, who was a nurse, she had her first experience working with an AIDS patient and realized not only that AIDS patients needed to be brought their meals and, you know, and this just snowballed and she did more and more, but that they had specific nutrition needs, and she brought this thing to life. Well, one of the major contributors to God's Love We Deliver was Michael Kors, the designer. Michael Kors funded their building, but eventually they outgrew it. They started to have too many people who were affiliated.

[25:08] Meg: God's Love We Deliver was in the triangular building. No, no, no, no, no, no.

[25:12] Jessica: Just saying back to 1985, when the dentists were being jerks, God's Love We Delivered on the other side of the scale, was being created. And so Michael Kors, having nothing to do with the triangular building, was like, by the way, God's Love We Deliver, I'm going to make major donations, as did Joan rivers for 25 years, and was on their board. I think the Michael Kors building is in SoHo. They just started to outgrow it. So in 2021, the people who were the heirs of Gottlieb, who were sitting on this amazing building, they entered into a contract with God's Love We Deliver. And God's Love We Deliver moved into that building along with their existing building, because they were the only entity that could be found that would adhere to the original mission of the building. And that was why it had Been empty for such a long time. No developers could get to it. It couldn't be made into apartments. No one could do anything with it.

[26:22] Meg: And they couldn't do anything with it

[26:24] Jessica: because there was no one who fit the mission who wanted to have anything fit in the building.

[26:29] Meg: You have a mission for a building?

[26:31] Jessica: Well, it's a nonprofit. Oh, a mission. How is. It's in the deed to the building. It's written in. The only way that this building can be used is X. Okay, so what these people did, who were the heirs of Gottlieb, they lease the building to this nonprofit. God's love we deliver for a tenth of its. Of its value. And that is such a good. That is what lives in my favorite building now, which used to be across from my favorite bistro, which is long gone, that had the best Blanquette de vaux in the city of long gone. But beautiful building, lovely story. And I think it's fascinating that even to this day, the long arm of original builders and architects can reach from 1827 or 1831 all the way into the modern era, saying, no, this is how this is going to be. These are our values. This is what's going to happen with this building.

[27:34] Meg: I love that.

[27:35] Jessica: Yes. History is all around you. It never dies.

[27:50] Meg: So what's our special thing, Jessica?

[27:52] Jessica: Well, you and I have been talking for quite some time about what other things we can do that enhance the podcast that connect with our listeners. And we have had a couple of different people reach out to us to review books. And we had the great and good fortune to go to the reading that Cynthia Weiner did for her book, Gorgeous Excitement with her editor from Penguin Random House. And we are going to review this book at their request because we have assessed the book and we think it's smashing.

[28:32] Meg: We really do. I was so moved by this book for a number of reasons.

[28:38] Jessica: Well, I can't wait to hear what they are. I'll have a quick little intro. However, as some of our listeners may recall, I had a little bit of a kerfuffle about this book when someone made a comment on social media about how it was, you know, rehashing old territory that shouldn't be rehashed because it wasn't Cynthia's story to tell, because the very, very, very rudimentary backdrop for the story is Jennifer Levin's murder. And I read the book, as did you, and I'm gonna have a lot of things to say about it. But the first thing I wanna say is, you know, never judge a book not only. Not by its cover, but by what you've assumed it is. Because when I went with you, Meg, to this reading, what Cynthia read, obviously it couldn't give the scope of the book. It was just, you know, a little bit. Yes. Now, this book, I loved it. And I'll give you the jump off for what I think is the. The reason that this is such a valuable book as a work of fiction. I think it's really hard to accurately portray what girls go through as they exit adolescence and enter young womanhood. And particularly in the 80s, which was a very confusing time where the mixed messages that we were receiving were so intense. And this book is not about the murder. This book is about a young.

[30:34] Meg: She's a girl, She's a coming of age.

[30:37] Jessica: It's a coming of age story. But how she is living in all different worlds at once. She straddles a lot of different social echelons and she is trying to figure out who she is. And the way that this book is written is so accurate. The running internal monologue is spot on. And the language that she uses. Like all of the 80s references are perfect, you know, like.

[31:06] Meg: And New York specific.

[31:07] Jessica: Yes, 100%.

[31:09] Meg: I think why it's important that in the book that there's the backdrop of the Jennifer Levin and also the Marla Hanson slashing is because those were seminal moments for us when we were growing up. So you've got a coming of age story of one fictional young woman who was deeply affected, as we all were in New York city in the 80s, by those two huge events.

[31:39] Jessica: And those two huge events were about women being silenced. There is a young, you know, this senior in high school who is Jewish and is living in this world of WASPs, of private school. And she's got mom who has mental health issues that are pretty severe, and she's navigating that. And she has friends who are both friends and frenemies. And she's trying to figure out who her real friends are and where she fits in. She doesn't necessarily feel great about herself. And so the people she has crushes on are, you know, she puts them on a pedestal and makes these boys a focal point for herself. But she's also aware of the fact that she's asked almost every day, and this is just one little spoiler to sort of accommodate men in ways that she's not comfortable with. One of them is her doorman who always hugs her in a not quite right way. So she's navigating all of the stuff and being she's about to graduate, and this boy who she is really has a crush on. Hard crush. And she meets a girl who's not from her world, who is super cool, very cool, but definitely edgy in a way that no parent would be terribly pleased with.

[33:03] Meg: And also figuring herself out very much as well. What I loved. Can I jump in just for a second, please? About the language of it. So the way that her impressions of what she's experiencing roll out is like these little puzzle pieces. Like, there's something in the back of her mind. So she kind. It's like you can hear her instinct in there somewhere going, this ain't good. But you can also hear her sort of talking herself out of her instincts. Yes, I. And also, look, young brains. We do that. That's what happened. That's how frequently people got into crazy situations because, you know, you. You don't have the perspective and. And whatever, the brain development or whatever. I. Not to be patronizing about young people.

[33:54] Jessica: It's not patronizing. We all know not until they're 25 are their brains fully formed.

[33:59] Meg: And I feel like she just really captured that voice so, so poignantly. And also, you know, there's so many things that happened to me during that time period that I realized reading this book. Oh, my God, I still feel so much shame about that. I still feel so embarrassed about that. And reading this book made me go like, oh, my God, Meg, give yourself a fucking break. You were just a kid. I mean, like, thank God you survived. Thank God, like, your friends survived. We were kind of like, you know, bumping into walls with all of our crazy decision makings. It was just really moving to me to just kind of feel, I don't know, validated and just because I felt, like, really very warmly towards the young women in this book.

[34:53] Jessica: Absolutely. And the girl who is the edgy girl, I agree with you. Like, she's. She's not made into a parody of the edgy kid. She's just as complicated and confused. She is, however. And just this is, you know, to explain the title of the book, she is the one who introduces our protagonist to cocaine, which we've talked about many times on this podcast as sort of the undercurrent of so many activities in the 80s. And when Freud famously first tried cocaine, he described the rush as a gorgeous excitement. And that rush is actually a theme throughout the book. Whether it has to do with cocaine or a boy or, you know, feeling like there's hope in an otherwise hopeless situation with an ill parent. There are all of these moments where she taps into that feeling when you're an adolescent where as. As much as a bad situation can be all encompassing and just crush you when something good happens, you get that same. This could be forever. This could be the thing. And I loved that. Yeah.

[36:05] Meg: I think she also talks about, you know, not just cocaine, but she's, you know, taking pills from medicine cabinets. I mean, and everybody in this world seemed to be doing that, so that wasn't so unusual. And then, of course, the drinking, that all of that was just a way to not feel big feelings or to have some sort of control over the big feelings. Feel like you had some kind of control over the big feelings. And I mean, I think it's probably. Can I talk about, like, when both she and her mother are high at the same time?

[36:41] Jessica: Yes.

[36:42] Meg: That is the crazy. Because her mother has emotional problems and her psychiatrist is testing a lot of different drugs on her and they're having different effects. And there's one day when the protagonist and her mother are both high as kites, but they're bonding. Finally they see each other. Think they see each other. I mean, like, oh, my God, I'm not sure this is gonna end well, but at least it's an argument you're happy now.

[37:15] Jessica: Yeah, it's an argument for better living through chemistry, for sure. I think the other thing that. Just to pick up on what you were talking about is that at the time there were all kinds of over the counter drugs that are now banned.

[37:30] Meg: Oh, right.

[37:31] Jessica: So the diet drugs and stuff. Yeah, the up. Like, everyone was on speed, so not really a big jump to get to, you know, doing cocaine, doing. Doing the coke. It reminded me that, like, we've talked so many times about, like, were the 80s a dangerous time? You know, is it an overblown fiction? You know, is every time dangerous? It just depends on who you are and where you are. And it just reminded me that there were very few guardrails, which would have gone with a slightly simpler time. So there are very few guardrails. But what was available was actually potentially quite dangerous. So the way that we navigated our world was frequently misguided for that reason.

[38:20] Meg: Also, getting back to your original comments about this person who assumed it was taking advantage of the Jennifer Levin story in order to sell books or whatever she frigging said. It has nothing to do with it. It's a story, really. Mostly, I think about the mother daughter connection and the fact that, like, the mother is also a writer of some kind and that you get the Sense that the protagonist is gonna be a writer of some kind. That was the more powerful relationship as far as I was concerned.

[38:58] Jessica: Yeah, I think that it's a huge. It's the underpinning of the whole story. Because not having a stable mom destabilizes the protagonist so much that she's looking for something to connect with in a lot of different ways. Some of them good, some of them not so good. And back to this thing about whether or not this is about Jennifer Levin. Really, this is a book that is not about that. But to your point, there are certain things that define every era. And it's inescapable that this was an event that defined the mid-80s in New York City.

[39:39] Meg: There was before and there was after.

[39:41] Jessica: Right. Because it wasn't just about us. It was about crackdown on bars, fake IDs not being acceptable. Like you couldn't just sort of wink and turn a blind eye. It was the way that kids socialize changed radically. The way that parents were aware of what their children were doing changed radically every. And the idea of pretty boys do bad things. Yes. And absentee parents realizing, maybe I need to know what my kids are doing. And. Yeah. And pretty. And pretty boys certainly can be very not good people. This is about Jennifer Levin as much as any book about a certain time period is about the time period.

[40:27] Meg: A separate piece is about World War II.

[40:28] Jessica: I swear to God, that was the book I was just thinking of.

[40:31] Meg: Exactly. I mean, she. Which I thought was. That cannot be a coincidence. I feel like it was definitely an influence in the writing of this book. Which would make sense because we all read a separate piece when we were in high school.

[40:43] Jessica: Yes.

[40:45] Meg: Yeah. This coming of age and also trying to figure out who your friends are, who you are having first impressions, not be accurate to who somebody actually is. Well.

[40:58] Jessica: And that chilling moment when you realize you were wrong, that's a big, big thing.

[41:02] Meg: Oh, and when that happens in this book. Woo, boy. It's a doozy of a scene.

[41:08] Jessica: It is a doozy of a scene.

[41:09] Meg: But are we gonna do like five stars? Like are we gonna do out of stars or thumbs?

[41:14] Jessica: Oh, that's a really, really good point. Well, what's Super 80s? We could be like, it's five cassettes. See, even Alfie is now five rubber bracelets. Yeah. I don't know. For now.

[41:26] Meg: Yes.

[41:27] Jessica: We'll do five Madonnas.

[41:29] Meg: Okay.

[41:30] Jessica: We'll just go to Madonna. Madonna always rules the 80s. I give this book five Madonnas. And in fact she is referred to as Madonna in the Book.

[41:38] Meg: That's right, Yes. I give this book five Madonnas, too. We're starting so high, Jessica. I hope all of our books are this exciting.

[41:45] Jessica: Well, I think it's very. It's inevitable that they will not be. And that's the drama is we started high. There are going to be things that we don't love quite so much. We're not going to cherry pick. We just got lucky with this one.

[42:00] Meg: Right. And should we explain what we have in mind going forward?

[42:04] Jessica: We have opened the doors to publicity departments from all of the major and minor publishing companies in the United States. And anything that PR departments think are applicable to our audience, we are inviting them to continue to send material to us. And when we think that something is really on target, we will share it with you guys. And we are hoping we'll probably do

[42:30] Meg: it on our YouTube channel in a video.

[42:33] Jessica: Yes, we will. I think that's a great idea. And I am hoping that we will be able to do this like every five episodes or something like that.

[42:43] Meg: We'll see how that goes. Interspersed. But yeah, but definitely video form.

[42:48] Jessica: So, yeah, I just. This book moved me. And by the way, your point about this being a mother daughter story is so interesting because I felt that too, but it made me very uncomfortable. And the thing that I felt this was about. And isn't that the wonderful thing about book reviews? Everyone comes away with something a little different. But for me, it was this protagonist having a breakthrough moment where she learns that she can trust herself.

[43:21] Meg: Nice.

[43:22] Jessica: Yeah. So, Cynthia Weiner. Well done.

[43:25] Meg: Well done. Tie us up, Jessica.

[43:39] Jessica: So it's a geography tie in. Koch's residence was on Gay Street.

[43:48] Meg: Is that true?

[43:49] Jessica: It was either Christopher or Gay.

[43:51] Meg: I didn't know that. For some reason. I pictured him on the Upper east side or something.

[43:54] Jessica: No, no, no. He was in the Village. That was why everyone's like gay. Anyway, assuming that that's where he was, because that's what was lodged in my brain. But maybe I'm just like saying that it was gay straight because of the controversy. But anyway, where I believe he lived, this is one of my worst ones ever. Is half a block from the dispensary.

[44:18] Meg: All right, and how is that connected to a gorgeous excitement? They actually didn't really go down to the Village.

[44:24] Jessica: Well, isn't that the point? That was so I. Everything in this book happens in like a 10 block radius practically.

[44:31] Meg: And they went to the west side

[44:34] Jessica: once they went to Times Square for their fake IDs.

[44:38] Meg: Right. But they did not go down to Astor place they did not go to St. Mark's right.

[44:44] Jessica: Which we have talked about on this podcast that you lived in, for lack of a better word, your little village.

[44:51] Meg: Yeah.

[44:52] Jessica: So look at that.

[44:55] Meg: Fascinating, Sam.