[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg

[00:17] Jessica: And I'm Jessica, and Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we

[00:28] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines and

[00:32] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: I forgot to tell you about this incredible review that we got over the summer that's going to make you so happy.

[00:41] Jessica: Aw, that's lovely. I'm having one of those days of such extreme exhaustion. Maybe it will perk me up. Maybe.

[00:49] Meg: Let's try five stars. Of course, I love all caps this show. I don't know how I came upon this show, but the gratitude I have for Meg and Jess I cannot even put into words. But I'm going to try. Aww. I'm the same age, but grew up in Northern California. Thankfully, my parents had a subscription to the Times and I was exposed to so many of their ripped from the headlines and pop culture subject matter. I have always been a little obsessed with all things nyc and they bring it to life with layers of my youth. That feels like I'm listening to two close friends and we're all reminiscing. I always burst out laughing at the same exact time as Jess does, which tells me we have similar humor and makes me want to hop on a plane and ask, where can I meet you two for a drink? I've shared the show with my friends and on a recent road trip, we all listened and took a trip down memory lane. Keep creating because I'm here for it.

[01:51] Jessica: That is the most glowing review I've ever heard.

[01:58] Meg: I feel like we should put that on a post it note. Keep creating because I'm here for it.

[02:03] Jessica: I love it. How can we be more. Yeah, Encouraged. And frankly, with us egged on. That's perfect. Well, thank you, person you. Do we have a name?

[02:18] Meg: Yeah. I mean, it's a pseudonym, but it's Andrea. LH 1970.

[02:24] Jessica: Oh, Andrea fellow. 1970. Baby. I feel you.

[02:30] Meg: And in other interactive news. Yes, we just got a text from Nick saying what's up Doc? Is a screwball comedy.

[02:40] Jessica: Well, did we say it wasn't?

[02:43] Meg: No, we.

[02:44] Jessica: We were just talking about.

[02:45] Meg: We were just talking about what is a screwball comedy. I remember the way you're delivering the

[02:49] Jessica: information makes it sound that he's like, it is, you morons.

[02:53] Meg: We didn't talk about what's up talk. We were just talking about what is a screwball comedy. What is that? And you said, I don't really think anything after the 30s is considered a screwball comedy.

[03:05] Jessica: Oh. That is why he has given it with that flavor. Although, you know what I'm going to say now that he has said that you. I. I'm doubly wrong. You know what's a screwball comedy? Every episode of Three's Company. Yeah.

[03:22] Meg: Well, that's very. What's up, doc? Right, Right.

[03:25] Jessica: It's farcical. Yeah. Like ridiculous situations, absurd confusions.

[03:31] Meg: Well, that's certainly nine to five, isn't it?

[03:33] Jessica: Yes, it is.

[03:34] Meg: All right, then.

[03:35] Jessica: There you go. And a lot of running around, a lot of physical comedy that comes from the mistakes, the misapprehensions of the characters.

[03:48] Meg: Yeah, there we go.

[03:49] Jessica: All right. We've. Phew. Cracked that nut. Thanks, Nick.

[03:55] Meg: And I talked to my mom and she said she loved that episode and it reminded her of so many things. She thought about the movie at the time and.

[04:05] Jessica: Aw, that's so.

[04:06] Meg: Being a woman during that period of time, being a working woman during that

[04:10] Jessica: period of time, sometimes it's hard to be a woman.

[04:15] Meg: So true, Tammy.

[04:17] Jessica: What else?

[04:19] Meg: That's what I've got. I mean, it's fall, clearly.

[04:21] Jessica: Yes. There's a briskness in the air. Yeah. Get out your sweaters. Although, you know what? I. Okay. Because God forbid we start an episode without me having a beef about something. Here's today's beef. Fall has been replaced as a concept and as a. As a. As a term with pumpkin spice season.

[04:48] Meg: Well, you don't have to let that happen. Just avoid it.

[04:53] Jessica: How can I? So there I am innocently going. Going on the New York Times cooking app because I was trying to think of something that might tempt me, you know?

[05:05] Meg: Ooh, like pumpkin soup.

[05:07] Jessica: No, not at all.

[05:09] Meg: No pumpkin.

[05:10] Jessica: I was like. I was not. I was not even. Pumpkin was on my mind. Nothing was on my mind. This is my point. I was just like, what would be yum yumsies? And then every single recipe that they were, they had in their scroll on the app was a pumpkin or a pumpkin spice something. And I was just like, God damn it. First it was kale, then it was tomato season, and now it's fucking pumpkin spicy. I can't take it. Just. It just wasn't glazed in miso, leaving me alone.

[05:43] Meg: Such a great pumpkin piece. And I will make it for you.

[05:47] Jessica: You do make it. I've had your pumpkin pie. It's excellent, and I like it because it's not too sweet. And there's an egginss to it that makes it Very custardy, which I really enjoy.

[05:58] Meg: And I put some nutmeg in there. Cause you're Meg.

[06:02] Jessica: Wah, wah, wah. No, yours is delicious. I just mean the ubiquity of it. Oh. And you know where else I found it? There. I was innocently going to order some new pods for my Nespresso machine.

[06:13] Meg: Everyone is just coming at you with this pumpkin stuff.

[06:16] Jessica: I just am saf saying, like, enough is enough. How many grotesque flavors of coffee can you come up with?

[06:23] Meg: That grosses me out.

[06:24] Jessica: It's disgusting. Coffee should be. Coffee has flavored. Coffee has a flavor already. If you don't like it, have a malted.

[06:31] Meg: I remember.

[06:32] Jessica: Go have. I don't know what.

[06:34] Meg: I was in graduate school the first time somebody gave me hazelnut coffee and I almost spat out. I. I wasn't expecting it. I didn't know what it was. I was like, what is this?

[06:45] Jessica: What is this? You're like, my taste buds have been assaulted. And.

[06:51] Meg: Well, I was a guest cheated, too, so I couldn't, like, say anything, but I was like, something's very, very wrong with my.

[06:58] Jessica: Well, you have such lovely manners where you're like, this is so fascinating. What is this flavor that I am being confronted?

[07:08] Meg: It was in California.

[07:10] Jessica: Of course it was.

[07:11] Meg: All right, should we get started? I'm kind of excited for this story.

[07:14] Jessica: I'm. I am so excited for your story. I have a story that I'm very pleased with just because it's something that I. I had genuinely never known a single thing about.

[07:25] Meg: Oh, I love that.

[07:26] Jessica: That was great. Like, it wasn't me going down a rabbit hole where I was like, do I know if this is true or not? Let me check it out.

[07:33] Meg: Oh, wait, before we go. And we had that whole conversation about the Shadow man and how we had never talked about on the podcast when in fact, we had talked about. I know you're in the clear.

[07:45] Jessica: Okay.

[07:46] Meg: I had talked about it with the wonderful Alex Smith of Flaming Pablum, and because that wasn't really the crux of his story, it was about Charlie Garcia. I had kind of glazed over a little bit my memory of how Shadow man fit into that story. I feel bad about them.

[08:10] Jessica: You shouldn't feel bad. I think that, you know, the reality is. Let's have a moment, shall we? That we've now done 200 episodes. The fact that I remember a single goddamn thing that we've talked about is a major modern miracle.

[08:25] Meg: And if we have to retread something, it probably means that we have to retread something, because I mean, if we don't remember it, that means other people don't remember it either.

[08:36] Jessica: Precisely. The one thing I do feel bad about is if Alex feels bad, I don't want him to ever feel bad.

[08:44] Meg: It was incredible story is Charlie Garcia's story. It did include the presence of a shadow man. The presence of a shadow man, and it was integral to the story, is just not what landed with me most profoundly.

[08:59] Jessica: I think I'll say this. Alex is such a source of unstoppable information that I have a feeling that there are going to be many times that we run afoul of him. So in advance, Apologies, Alex, for anything that we double back on.

[09:19] Meg: Right. And he definitely has a better memory than we do.

[09:21] Jessica: Well, that's for sure.

[09:34] Meg: I just thought of an engagement question on the fly.

[09:38] Jessica: That's very exciting.

[09:39] Meg: What is your favorite Upper east side restaurant?

[09:46] Jessica: Hmm. Well, that's a tricky question.

[09:50] Meg: A favorite.

[09:51] Jessica: Is it one that is currently in operation, or is it any of all time on the Upper east side?

[09:58] Meg: Whatever strikes your fancy.

[10:00] Jessica: Hmm.

[10:02] Meg: I mean, I should say to people who don't know, the Upper east side does not have a lot of restaurants. It's kind of crazy. You would think. There's so many people here who want to go out to dinner, and yet it's kind of hard to find a place to go to dinner.

[10:16] Jessica: So are you not including 2nd and 3rd Avenue on the Upper east side? Are you saying from Lexington to fifth? Because second and Third Avenue are like restaurants one right after the.

[10:28] Meg: And yet, wouldn't you agree that people are like, I don't know. There's nothing. There's nowhere to go. Like, people are always complaining about going out in. On the Upper east side.

[10:39] Jessica: Well, I think that I hear what you're saying. The thing about the Upper east side, actually, I think, is that there's not a lot of turnover of restaurants. The restaurants that are there are there, and they're there for a long time, and you can get kind of sick of what's in the hood. So you're kind of like, do I go to this place again or this place again?

[11:02] Meg: But to be honest, that is kind of my question. Like, they're all those sort of small, you know, places that have been there forever and ever and ever, and the people stay the same. They just get older. And I am kind of in my mind, that was what I was sort of thinking about. I wasn't thinking about, like, some place that pops up on Madison and goes out of business five years later. I was sort of Thinking about those places that are like, you know what I really like celebrating their 30th anniversary.

[11:30] Jessica: I like Cafe del Sauce.

[11:32] Meg: Okay. Oh, okay. Where's that exactly? Do you know?

[11:35] Jessica: Off of that, I believe it is 89th and second. Cool.

[11:41] Meg: What do you like about it? Paint a picture.

[11:43] Jessica: Well, I love a bistro.

[11:45] Meg: I love a bistro.

[11:46] Jessica: Let's begin with that. So if I'm really picking my faves and I want it to be comforting and kind of like a standby, I'm going to go bistro. And Cafe d' Alsace is Alsatian bistro. So it's a little different than the usual fare. It's always good. They're very accommodating. And it's not too like, it's not cavernous and it's not too small. Like you can get seated. And the bar area is very cool looking. It's all backlit bottles. Not liquor bottles, like blue bottles, red bottles, green bottles. It just looks very cool while still being then very traditional with the red banquettes and a very homey. It's just good. It's solid.

[12:34] Meg: Love it. Here we go. Sources are the New York Times, the Washington Post and Jerseyman magazine.

[12:45] Jessica: Jersey man magazine. That seems like it's very intriguing.

[12:51] Meg: Now this is a saga so.

[12:54] Jessica: So lean back. To quote Robin Byrne. Get comfortable.

[13:00] Meg: At 9pm on Saturday, August 8, 1987, Irwin Schiff picked up Judy Gallup at her West Village apartment. Their plan was to go to dinner. Judy was recently married to George Gallup and Irwin had paid for their honeymoon at the Georgian Hotel at Lake George. The Gallops had planned to return the favor by inviting Irwin, a bachelor known for his generosity and girth, to. To dinner at their place.

[13:39] Jessica: Wait, is this like Monty Python? Meaning of life? Like Mr. Creosote just it's wafer thin. Like that kind of girth.

[13:47] Meg: Oh.

[13:48] Jessica: Do you know what I'm talking about?

[13:48] Meg: I don't know what you mean. The guy's 350.

[13:51] Jessica: Okay, it's Mr. Creoso. So please continue. Yes, okay. Okay, gotcha.

[13:55] Meg: But then George's uncle died. And so George had to go to Ohio for the funeral.

[14:04] Jessica: Not Ohio.

[14:06] Meg: So instead of canceling dinner, Irwin suggested he take Judy out for dinner instead. Judy wasn't thrilled about this plan.

[14:16] Jessica: Oh no? Why?

[14:18] Meg: I mean, they barely knew Erwin. They met him at a nightclub in February.

[14:23] Jessica: And so he paid for their wedding

[14:25] Meg: not knowing their honeymoon.

[14:26] Jessica: Excuse me. What's the difference? He paid for their honeymoon?

[14:30] Meg: Yeah.

[14:30] Jessica: Without knowing them?

[14:32] Meg: No, not very well. They met in February of that Year. And we are now in August.

[14:38] Jessica: This seems unstable from the get go.

[14:41] Meg: I mean, from what. This is what I imagined. Judy and George, they're like at some hot spot nightclub. And here's this like, big spender guy. And they chat him up and he goes, you don't have honeymoon plans. You must take me up on my offer. I will put you up at the Georgian Hotel at Lake George. And they were like, okay, thank you

[15:09] Jessica: for the indecent proposal earlier.

[15:11] Meg: I mean, I can sort of picture that, to be honest. I can sort of picture that happening. But here they are and they're like, well, we'll just invite them over for dinner and then we'll be done with all of this. But instead, it's gotten more complicated. And now Judy has to go out to dinner with Erwin by herself.

[15:29] Jessica: See, ladies listening. All ladies listening. There's no such thing as have to.

[15:34] Meg: Right. But can't you see it from her perspective? Like, he knows I'm available because he was invited to come over so he knows I'm free. What. What am I gonna say?

[15:42] Jessica: Well, her husband should have stepped in and said, erwin, I think it would be best if we both go together so that Judy didn't have to carry the the ball on this one.

[15:52] Meg: Yeah, George, he just was dealing with his grief or whatever and he didn't think that way. He did not think that way. And Judy was like, all right, fine, I'll just go out to dinner with Erwin.

[16:04] Jessica: I have the creeps.

[16:05] Meg: And now already he's picking her up at 9pm which is also. It's just fucking too late for dinner. That's too late. We don't live in Spain.

[16:13] Jessica: And is Erwin significantly older than this couple?

[16:18] Meg: You know, I don't even know how old the couple is. I was kind of figuring he's 50. So I would say yes, because they just got married. I didn't get the vibe that they were like mature people who are second time around. Yeah, I didn't get the second time around vibe. Although they do live in the West Village, so, you know, things are going well.

[16:38] Jessica: I can't even. Please continue because this is too creepy.

[16:42] Meg: Yeah. So he paid for their honeymoon, and Erwin knew she was free that night. So she figured she didn't really have a choice. Irwin showed up at the wheel of his black Lincoln Town.

[16:57] Jessica: She got in the car.

[16:59] Meg: Judy was surprised that he was driving himself. She kind of figured his driver would be there. But Irwin had given his driver Ralph the night off. Irwin asked her if she was in the mood for Steak, Chinese or Italian? Judy said, I don't care. So they headed to one of Irwin's favorite spots, Bravo Sergio, on 76th and 2nd Avenue. Irwin, who was 56 foot four and weighed over 350 pounds.

[17:34] Jessica: Oh no.

[17:36] Meg: Always wore expensive monogrammed shirts and cashmere or silk V neck sweaters.

[17:44] Jessica: Oh, no.

[17:46] Meg: He was a bachelor. Although he sometimes introduced Connie Roko, a pop singer he befriended and promoted as his fiance. He was a big tipper, often whipping out his role of 50s and hundreds. He called himself a financial consultant, although he wasn't associated with any firm or bank.

[18:08] Jessica: Oh, no. Was he a mob backer of like, like. Oh, no. This is not. I see where this is going. This is not good.

[18:17] Meg: When Judy and Erwin arrived at Bravo Sergio, they were shown to a table at the back of the room. As they walked in, Irwin spotted people he knew. And he stopped to talk to two couples seated towards the front of the small restaurant. When they were eventually seated in the back, Irwin ordered the Caesar salad. Double shrimp cocktail, veal rolatini and rigatoni with bacon, onion and tomato.

[18:47] Jessica: And for Judy, I don't know what Judy ordered.

[18:51] Meg: That was not printed. For dessert, he had banana and strawberry flambe. Ew. The whole bill came to $90. Irwin left a $30 tip.

[19:06] Jessica: $90, my God, could you imagine? That wouldn't even cover, like a drink. And the flambe. Good God. Okay, wait. Tell me what he had again because now, like, I need to re. Reabsorb that information.

[19:19] Meg: Caesar salad, double shrimp cocktail, veal rollatini and rigatoni with bacon, onion and tomato.

[19:28] Jessica: Jesus Christ, I have a stomachache just thinking about it.

[19:32] Meg: And again, the bill was $90 and he left a $30 tip.

[19:37] Jessica: Noted.

[19:38] Meg: I mean, thanks, Erwin.

[19:40] Jessica: Okay.

[19:42] Meg: Just as he had finished paying the

[19:44] Jessica: bill, he keels over the restaurant.

[19:47] Meg: I'm sorry, do you want me to tell you?

[19:48] Jessica: Yes, I do. I guess I don't want. Well, I want you to tell this.

[19:53] Meg: Okay? So just.

[19:55] Jessica: Sorry. It's just such a good story. I can't help myself.

[19:59] Meg: How do you know?

[20:00] Jessica: Because the setup is exquisite.

[20:02] Meg: Okay, let me land the plane. Picture it. He's just finished paying the bill. A man who is 5 foot 7 inches, medium build, with a bit of a paunch, black pants and white shirt, approached the table. Judy saw his face and it was wrapped in flesh colored bandages. She said she didn't even know what race he was because he was completely covered.

[20:35] Jessica: Like the invisible man.

[20:36] Meg: Like the invisible man, but with, I mean, flesh like Caucasian flesh colored bandages. The man came up behind Irwin and shot him twice in the head. And then ran out the same rear door he'd entered through. This is a door that was usually locked. All the patrons, including Judy, ran out the front door into the street. The two couples Irwin had spoken to earlier approached Judy on the sidewalk. One of the men told her, you didn't see anything, and ushered her into a cab, paying the driver $20 to take her home. Judy left for Ohio the next morning.

[21:23] Jessica: Quite rightly. Judy, good God.

[21:26] Meg: Leaving the police and the press searching in vain for the mysterious blonde who had dined with Irwin Schiff. And no one would know her name because it was just such a random reason they were out together. No one would know her name for months and months and months. No one. Not the press, not the police. Well, actually, the police did know, but they kept it confidential. When she got to Ohio, her brother in law was a lawyer and he was like, you have to call them and tell them that you are this person. But the police kept it completely quiet. And there was no other way to track her down, like, literally. The press was going nuts. All these articles and all these different papers were like, who is the mysterious blonde? Thinking that that would explain what had happened to Irwin. It had nothing to do with what happened to Irwin. For weeks, everyone tried to piece together exactly who Irwin was and why he'd been shot and who would want him dead. Such a flashy way to go, right?

[22:35] Jessica: It's nuts.

[22:36] Meg: Yeah.

[22:37] Jessica: It's such a mafia way to go.

[22:38] Meg: Yeah. Yes. Okay, so he must be somebody important or somebody crooked. I mean, it's.

[22:44] Jessica: Or somebody rich and crooked and important.

[22:47] Meg: But actually no one really knew who he was either. He, he was living kind of on the edge and in between things and,

[22:58] Jessica: you know, but you'd think that someone who flashes his money around like that

[23:02] Meg: would be known, I mean, to some

[23:05] Jessica: people, but not exactly people.

[23:07] Meg: But he was also kind of cagey about who he was, even to people who knew him. Like, people are like, he's a financial consultant, I think. I'm not even sure what he is.

[23:16] Jessica: All right, I'm so. I'm so. I'm all in. I'm all in.

[23:20] Meg: He lived a flashy life, and many spoke well of him, especially those on whom he'd lavished gifts and favors. Francesco Scavullo. No. Loved him. This is a quote. Whenever somebody was sick or in trouble or needed help, he took care of it. When his brother had cancer, he went all over the place trying to save him, but it wasn't Just his brother. It could be anybody. How I feel about this man could never be shattered, no matter what comes out.

[23:56] Jessica: Francesco Scavullo, for those who don't know. Famous fashion photographer.

[24:00] Meg: Very. But obviously not everybody loved him. And things did start coming out. It turned out he had been a long time confidence man, according to the Times. And while he was a great friend to some, he. He ripped off many others. Racking up all kinds of unpaid debts and broken contracts. And once threatened to chop up a creditor's daughters. I mean, that's. That's not nice.

[24:29] Jessica: That's bad form, Irwin.

[24:32] Meg: In fact, he'd pissed off so many people, it was hard to figure out which one of them had finally decided to get the ultimate revenge. He had friends in high places, like Anthony Carolla, boss of the Lucchese crime family, which controlled the trucking and construction unions in New York. In fact, one of Irwin's titles was Head of Construction Coordinators Corps of Queens, a company that did not have an office or phone number. He was also friends with the FBI. He'd been an informant for them since 1978. In fact. You're gonna like this.

[25:15] Jessica: I'm very excited.

[25:16] Meg: He had been the guy who told the Feds about Donald Manus taking bribes. That is a callback to episode 69, the King of Queens and Dinner Theater. Remember the guy who faked a suicide attempt and then he ended up killing himself with a knife.

[25:32] Jessica: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With a knife in the kitchen. Yes.

[25:34] Meg: Yeah, yeah.

[25:35] Jessica: Very crazy, right?

[25:36] Meg: Okay, okay. So it turns out Erwin was part of that story. And he was also part of another story we've told. He was the informant who told the Feds about the corruption by contractors during the building of the Jacob Javits Center.

[25:53] Jessica: No.

[25:53] Meg: Call back to episode one.

[25:55] Jessica: He was the one he tipped off about the Westies.

[25:57] Meg: Exactly. Bad defense and USS Westy. He's been in the background of all these stories we told, and we didn't even know he existed. Isn't that crazy?

[26:08] Jessica: God.

[26:09] Meg: But while all this seems like he was asking for trouble, the people he'd been ratting out were Jewish or Irish. He'd never fingered an Italian.

[26:21] Jessica: Wait, can you just let me laugh at that for a second?

[26:24] Meg: I knew you would. You're so predictable.

[26:27] Jessica: I am a child.

[26:28] Meg: But you see the point? When he did throw someone under the bus, he wasn't throwing an actual made man under the bus. He was. He was throwing Jewish people and Irish people. He didn't. He never crossed the Italians. He never crossed the Italians.

[26:46] Jessica: Interesting.

[26:47] Meg: So The Italians were like, we know what he's doing, but we don't give a fuck. But that didn't mean that a few Italians weren't pissed at him for other reasons. Even though he had links to the genovese and gambino crime families as well as the lucchese. So he saw so well connected over at casella's restaurant in hoboken. And that's where the genoveses hung out. The FBI had been able to place some bugs in 12 tape conversations in August 1987. Bobby Manna, Martin casella, and bochi desisco were bitching about guys they didn't like. They're just sitting around going, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. Specifically, John gotti and his brother gene. They didn't like him so much, and they didn't like Erwin schiff. The feds warned John gotti about the plot to take him out outside a club in queens. But either they didn't know who cece referred to, which was code for Irwin because of his fake business, construction coordinators, or they didn't care. But the FBI failed to give Irwin the heads up that there was a hit out on him.

[28:04] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[28:06] Meg: It was Bobby Manna, who was consigulary under Vincent chin gigante of the Genovese crime family, who ordered the hit. And it's unclear why. Again, another callback for some Vinnie the chin content. Episode 101, A Bronx Tale and aliens in the burbs. So it's possible that Irwin may have been skimming Genovese money. But most who were in the know said he just didn't like him. Bobby manna just didn't like Irwin. He just didn't like him. Incidentally, he also didn't like judge Marianne trump Barry or u. S. State's attorney at the time, Samuel alito.

[28:50] Jessica: Interesting.

[28:52] Meg: So the list was long, and maybe erwin was just the lowest hanging fruit. Like here you've got. You've got a list of people you want to hit, right? Let's imagine that you work for Bobby mana, and Bobby manna is like, I don't like this jazz.

[29:06] Jessica: You're gonna start with the easiest hit, right?

[29:09] Meg: I don't like alito. I don't like John gotti or gene gotti. I don't like Erwin schiff. Erwin schiff. Well, I think I know where he might go to dinner tonight, so let's just. Let's just take that one, right? I mean, honestly, I kind of think that might have been it, as silly as that sounds. Ultimately, it was the Irwin hit that sent Bobby Manna to prison. He was sentenced to 80 years in federal prison. Oh, my God. It just occurred to me.

[29:36] Jessica: What?

[29:37] Meg: Oh, this is so dark.

[29:38] Jessica: What?

[29:39] Meg: They wanted to get Bobby Manna. Bobby Manna. Oh, they kill him.

[29:43] Jessica: They let him.

[29:44] Meg: Let him kill Irwin Schiff so that they could put him away.

[29:48] Jessica: Oh, that is dark.

[29:50] Meg: That is dark, Right?

[29:51] Jessica: Yeah.

[29:52] Meg: Okay.

[29:53] Jessica: But not inconceivable, right? Yes.

[29:55] Meg: Okay, so Bobby Manna was sentenced to 80 years in federal prison and was released on compassionate release at the age of 95.

[30:03] Jessica: 95.

[30:05] Meg: In April 2025.

[30:08] Jessica: No.

[30:09] Meg: He's got lung cancer, Parkinson's disease, low blood pressure, and he has had a stroke. But he walks amongst us. He currently lives with his stepson in Bayonne, New Jersey.

[30:25] Jessica: 95.

[30:26] Meg: Well, now he's 96.

[30:30] Jessica: Damn.

[30:31] Meg: Isn't that a crazy little tale?

[30:33] Jessica: That is a wackadoodle. Poor Judy. That's the kind of thing you don't get over.

[30:39] Meg: You know, she seemed totally fine.

[30:41] Jessica: She was probably like, thank God this dinner's over. I could finally leave.

[30:46] Meg: They revealed who she was finally because she had to testify. And she apparently got up on that stand and just was like, you know, just the facts, ma', am, or whatever. And then the prosecutor said, and then what happened? And she was like, when? When he got shot? Yeah. Okay, so this guy came up behind him and shot him twice in the head. Is that what you mean? Like, she was just totally nonplussed. Judy's good. Judy's good.

[31:12] Jessica: I like Judy. She's like, don't try to get me emotional, people. And the man was wrapped up like the invisible man. What am I supposed to say?

[31:20] Meg: I mean, that's the scariest part of it.

[31:22] Jessica: That is really creepy, Creeperama. Yuck. Yuck. No, thanks.

[31:27] Meg: And not a bad idea.

[31:29] Jessica: What are we gonna now? Are we getting ready to think about it?

[31:32] Meg: If you wrap your face up and so your eye, you can still see through, no one's gonna. It's not like wearing a mask. If somebody wears a mask down the street, you're gonna go like, oh, my God, that person's in a mask.

[31:42] Jessica: Well, like, were there eye holes cut out?

[31:44] Meg: I assume he had to see where he was walking.

[31:47] Jessica: I'm just saying, I'm like, you know, shoot the wrong person. You know, I. Look, I'm having, like, images from, like, Scooby Doo version of. Of the Invisible man where it's, like, all wrapped up, but with glasses on.

[32:04] Meg: I think he probably had. It was everything except for his eyes. So he could see where he was going. Maybe he had some nostril holes. I don't know.

[32:11] Jessica: Maybe.

[32:12] Meg: Think about that. You're not. Your eye. If you're walking down the street and it's dark and somebody has. You're not.

[32:16] Jessica: There's not a feature.

[32:17] Meg: There's not a feature. And also, no one's going to see you looking like that. You might notice someone in a mask. You're not going to notice somebody who doesn't have any features.

[32:26] Jessica: But wouldn't you?

[32:28] Meg: I mean, not in the dark. I think it. I think it's very clever.

[32:31] Jessica: No, it's. It's definite and also, frankly, creepy enough that people will be like, I don't want to look at it by. I'm out of here. No, no, no, thanks. Not for me.

[32:41] Meg: Remember when Erwin picked up Judy, he said, where do you want to go? He said, do you want Chinese? Do you want Italian? Do you want.

[32:51] Jessica: Oh, that's right.

[32:52] Meg: What was the third. What was the third?

[32:54] Jessica: Chinese, Italian. Steak. Yeah.

[32:56] Meg: Steak, Chinese, Italian. So he had a few places in mind. He could have gone anywhere that night. I think it was the two couples sitting in the front who made a quick phone call and said, guess who's sitting in the back of this restaurant right now? Just by happenstance or what I was thinking.

[33:18] Jessica: I think yours is much more probable that he had three places he always went. And so there was going to be a scoping out. It was always going to be steak, Italian, Chinese.

[33:32] Meg: Oh, that's fair.

[33:32] Jessica: Because they got. He got all the way through the meal, right?

[33:37] Meg: He got all the way through the meal. So it took. That's why I like my theory more, because it took the couple like, I gotta go make a phone call. And then they called somebody. And then that somebody called somebody else. And then they were like, can you get there? Well, I. Jesus. Okay, hold on. I gotta cancel my plans to go kill this guy.

[33:55] Jessica: Sorry. I've got theater tickets.

[33:57] Meg: Do you see? So it took them, like, an hour or so to get there.

[34:02] Jessica: I hear you.

[34:03] Meg: I think he was not being followed.

[34:05] Jessica: How do we know?

[34:07] Meg: Because of that. That's my. That's my.

[34:09] Jessica: Because of your theory. So we're backing it.

[34:11] Meg: Hey.

[34:12] Jessica: Okay.

[34:12] Meg: I'm smart.

[34:17] Jessica: I don't have a horse in this race, so I'll just go with whatever you say.

[34:20] Meg: Unless you got something better.

[34:23] Jessica: I had something. It's not better. It's just an alternative. Can you imagine, though? Here's what just came into my head. Could you imagine the ruckus of a six Four, three, five, zero. Man hitting the floor. Like, you know in Breakfast at Tiffany's, when Madge Wildwood goes down and Holly Golightly is like, timber. That's what I'm imagining. Just like a. And also, strangely, the entire time you're describing him, I've imagined him to look like Penn Jillette from Penn and Teller. That's just what my mind has conjured.

[34:58] Meg: I have seen a picture, but now I. I need to look at it again.

[35:02] Jessica: All right, well, maybe during the break, we'll both take a look at Erwin. Mick.

[35:16] Meg: Yes.

[35:17] Jessica: When we were teenagers.

[35:19] Meg: Yes.

[35:19] Jessica: Did you ever watch Dick Clark's American Bandstand?

[35:24] Meg: Yes, of course I did.

[35:26] Jessica: What did you think of it?

[35:28] Meg: I thought it was really fun. Bandstand, Bandstand.

[35:32] Jessica: And it was pretty amazing that Even in the 80s, he had been doing it for a ridiculously long period of time.

[35:41] Meg: Yeah. He was avuncular.

[35:43] Jessica: Okay, I'm dead now. That's your comment. He was avuncula. Yes. He. Yes. Okay. He had been around. Very good. And he kept doing it for, like. So the man lived to, like, 8 million years old. He kept. Right. So American Bandstand was an absolute institution. And the show changed a little bit over the years, but some of the features were they would have bands play,

[36:10] Meg: and he was into, like, the top 100 or top 10. So it was like he was breaking the news on the new song that was going to be.

[36:19] Jessica: Right, whatever was a big hit. Exactly. American Bands Stand had dance contests. You had to rate a song, and it was like, one through ten. Like, can you dance to it? Like, how. So it was a whole format. But let's be honest, it wasn't very cool.

[36:37] Meg: No, no. It was kind of square.

[36:40] Jessica: It was very square. And you could tell when the acts got on that they were kind of like, oh, God, we have to do this.

[36:50] Meg: You have to do it. You could tell rite of passage and just suck it up and do it.

[36:55] Jessica: And they had to lip sync.

[36:57] Meg: And they had to lip sync. And there were a bunch of people. You should also say, it wasn't just Dick Clark standing alone on a stage.

[37:04] Jessica: He had kids dancing all over the stage. That was the whole thing. So it was a dance program. You had forget just the bands that played. They had music going. They were running through the top hits of the week or whatever. And they had kids in the most Midwestern 1980s garb you could possibly imagine,

[37:27] Meg: smiling ear to ear, dancing in bright, bright light to the latest.

[37:33] Jessica: Exactly. Bright light. So for those of you who are either John Waters fans or Broadway people? Corny Collins show on in Hairspray. That was American Bandstand.

[37:46] Meg: American Bandstand.

[37:47] Jessica: Well, it just wasn't cool.

[37:50] Meg: No, I know. What was. Oh, what was Soul Train?

[37:54] Jessica: Oh, well, yes, but that's not what we're going to talk about.

[37:57] Meg: Okay.

[37:58] Jessica: We're going to talk about what happens when one of my favorite things, New York cable access, merges with the concept of American Bandstand.

[38:11] Meg: Okay.

[38:12] Jessica: And underground acts that are about to not be underground. There was a show on New York cable access that was a cut above the others. It was still very rough around the edges, but it was consistently churned out. And it wasn't just in the studio with, like, a terrible curtain behind them. They were, like, all over the place. It was called New York Dance Stand, and it was an underground music and dance public access TV series broadcasting on Manhattan Cable from the early 80s, from 1980 to 1984.

[38:58] Meg: I just had a thought.

[39:00] Jessica: Do tell.

[39:01] Meg: Like, why don't we have public access anymore? Because we have YouTube. Yeah, right.

[39:07] Jessica: Well, that's not the actual reason. But how do we still have the ability to create things like that?

[39:16] Meg: There's a need for this. There's a need for somebody to have a great idea and go and film it and just put it up there and we all get to enjoy it. And there are no guardrails, there's no gatekeeper. Just frigging do it. That's what I think. That's the thought I just had.

[39:32] Jessica: I think that the whole DIY culture that started in the 90s completely. Yes, absolutely. Yay. So it was the gritty do it yourself East Village version of American Bandstand, and very specifically, Manhattan. And it captured the raw energy and weirdness and complete, like, who's gonna walk in the door now? Of that time. It was filmed in a studio, one of the cable access studios. But pretty soon it started filming at clubs all. All around the city. And they had a very, very, very famous episode that took place at Danceteria, which I will talk about in just a moment. They had live dance contests, fashion updates, and I'll tell you about my favorite fashion update, because I watched the footage. I watched a whole bunch of these fashion updates and shopping trips for fashion to find fashion rating, the music tracks. But they had a bizarre rating system. It was from 45 to 95. Huh. Why would it be.

[40:41] Meg: Because they didn't want it to be 50 to 100.

[40:44] Jessica: Why? Why not 1 to 10? I don't know. And interviews with downtown personalities, artists and musicians so Dick Clark only interviewed the musicians, which was always marvelously awkward. So he'd come up to like Simon Le Bon and be like, so why do you think of Cleveland? And he's like, it's fine. That was the setup. Now, who did this? It was so low budget. It didn't have a highly polished guest list. It didn't have a highly polished mc. But what it did have was post punk legends, synth pop pioneers, and the It Girls and It Boys of downtown New York. The host had the bizarre name, and I think it was really his name, because who would have chosen this as a stage name? Carl Bloat. He was very goofy, and I can't tell if it was his version of being Dick Clark or if he was actually that goobery, but either way, it works. Yeah, that's an interesting story. Yes, very. Like, if it was a put on, it was perfect. And his sidekick was a woman named D. D, E, E Letter D. Bashet. And Dee Dee Bashet was with him. She was kind of like the culture desk. And they both had such wonderfully thick New York accents that it could. It was like, mm, Chef's Kiss. Dee Dee, particularly one of the episodes, and I think it's part of the Danceateria episode where she goes shopping at Trash and Vaudeville to find an outfit for that.

[42:32] Meg: I was trying to think, like, where would you go shop? You would go Trash and Vaudeville. You would go Canal Jean or any shitty thrift shop.

[42:41] Jessica: There were. There was. But what was interesting, and we've talked about this before on the program, the. On the program, on the podcast, is that at the time, if you wanted a. A record that was coming from any other country, usually England, you had to find it. You had to wait for it. You had to go get it yourself. Trash in Vaudeville. On this episode, the saleswoman was showing her all of these shoes from England, and she was like, pointy toes, patent leather. Those are for me. So they put a whole outfit together, and the woman who helped her was named Zsa Zsa. Later in the episode, Zsaza is a Go Go dancer at Danceteria. So it's a little bit of like, oh, yeah, everyone in the East Village was doing everything all the time with each other. Where did they film? Let's first talk about where they would film. The Mud Club. And I don't know if we've ever even given all of the addresses for these clubs, but I have them at my fingertips right now, so I'm going to share. The Mud club was at 77 White street in Tribeca. It was small and no frills, and it had frequently, Jean Michel Basquiat, Keith Haring, and already spoken of on this podcast, Klaus Nomi. Then there was area at 157Hudson, most conceptually creative club. We've talked about that, too. Eric Goode did this, and it was constantly having new themes. They had the famous invitation that was a pill that dissolved to show you where you were going. It was pyramid 101 Avenue A, which I think they still have the paint, you know, on the. The storm door. Like it's still there.

[44:29] Meg: Yeah.

[44:29] Jessica: The club isn't, but the paint is, right?

[44:32] Meg: Yeah. I can't say for sure, but I know exactly where it is. Like, we could go there right now.

[44:37] Jessica: DJ Larry Levan, also of Paradise Garage, Pyramid Club, 101 Avenue A, where it still has the painting on the storm door. That's what you call it, right? Like the metal thing that you roll down.

[44:49] Meg: Yeah, I think so.

[44:50] Jessica: Right. And it's like. It actually looks like the pyramid on the back of Madonna's jacket and Desperately Seeking Susan. Right. Underground, very small. Lots of goth, new wave. It's where a lot of proto goth came out of. There were a lot of LGBTQ acts, and it helped to define the East Village look and feel. Paradise garage was at 84 King street, another place where they would film, where DJ Larry Levan, he invented garage house music and catered to, again, LGBTQ. There was also Club 57 at St. Mark's which I didn't even know about. A zero budget East Village hangout where they would show movies and have theme nights. The Roxy, which we've spoken about. West 18th street, and of course, Limelight in 1983 that opened. So because they were filming between 80 and 84, all of these were around at that time. That was really where you would go. There is this famous episode which I watched. It was one of the most uncomfortable viewings, and I highly recommend that we put it on the Instagram just as, like a link. You've got to see it. It's in the studio. Bizarrely, or maybe not bizarrely, maybe this is just like very normal. He had Siouxy in the band. She's on. And they had just started their American tour, and Sucy was pissed off and had no problem talking about it with Carl Bloat. What was she about? Well, they had their distribution, their American distribution, and marketing was so bad. They had just come from Boston where there were 60 people in the audience. 60. So she was just like. And furthermore, just going on and on not happy and then very unhappy that, you know, here's this underground program that they're going to be on. But obviously we know what Manhattan Cable is like. There's no actual, like sound. There's no real lights.

[46:58] Meg: No. She was like, what is this piece of garbage?

[47:01] Jessica: They had to lip sync to their album.

[47:05] Meg: No, she's not gonna do that, is she?

[47:06] Jessica: She did, but she was making faces and the drummer was like, very obviously pretending to play the drums. It was just wildly, wildly uncomfortable. They lip synced the song Israel and the song Christine while she basically teased her hair and complained through the entire thing. Bauhaus was on it. Klaus Nomi doing his German operatic thing. There was a post punk band that I had never heard of before. Alex, I know you know this band on the list of places that I just gave you, the one that I left off was Uptown Hurrah. They filmed at Hurrah. The monochrome set played at Hurrah. And they loathed. They hated. They were on the same team as Susie and the Banshees that they had to mime as well once they were on the set. One of my favorite acts, because the first time I saw it, obviously it was on mtv. The lead singer, whose name I cannot remember. Do you remember the band Romeo Void? And they had this song, Never say Never. I think I'd like you better if we slept together.

[48:20] Meg: Oh, that kind of sounds familiar.

[48:21] Jessica: And she's a very large woman who was not classically beautiful and she was just this powerhouse. And I looked at it again and I was like, ah, Beth, ditto of gossip. Owes her whole shtick to this one. So they did it. They were not complainers.

[48:40] Meg: Okay, good.

[48:41] Jessica: They were just happy to be there. Some other downtown denizens that were on the show, Diane Brill, Eva Byron, and the aforementioned Zsa Zsa. The show ran and Carl Bloat, I can only assume that they closed it because I guess things were changing with the bands and the way they were being promoted and getting the kinds of bands that they wanted on their absolute shitbird studio and their stage might have been a little harder. He went on Carl Bloat to be a film editor and had a life after this totally fakacta show. But, like, it was so fakacta that they were using like poster board to have like their. Their chart of like, what songs were going well, it's adorable. And he. Oh, and there's this great moment where he goes. Carl Bloat goes. I think it's to dance a terrier. The bouncer won't let him in. And he's like, no, really, it's my show. I'm the guy. I'm doing it. And the bouncer, who looks like he might have known him, his name is George, just is smiling and continuing to refuse him entry. And he goes away, and he's upset. Dee Dee comes and she's got this real, like, you know, she's like a real New York girl. And she's like, hey, George, why don't you just let us in? We had suing the show.

[50:11] Meg: It sounds like an act.

[50:13] Jessica: That's really how she sounded in.

[50:14] Meg: No, no, no, no. But like, it's like a setup. Like, they. That was how.

[50:18] Jessica: Let's hope so, because that would have been the moment that Carl Bloat would have had to die a thousand deaths.

[50:24] Meg: What made you want to talk about this?

[50:27] Jessica: I ran across it like I was. What was I looking?

[50:30] Meg: I wonder if they're still around. If they're still. Yeah, well, Carl Bloat has.

[50:35] Jessica: Yes, he has an Instagram account.

[50:37] Meg: You can look up Carl Blow.

[50:39] Jessica: We need to. We can reach out to Carl Bloe.

[50:42] Meg: Reach out to Carl Blow.

[50:43] Jessica: And the other. Well, one of the ways that I got wise to it is that I've talked about this on the podcast before, that the founder, the brain behind Night Flight, is someone I know. And sometimes I'll get little alerts for Night Flight things. And Night Flight aired an episode of this show.

[51:07] Meg: Okay, that makes sense.

[51:08] Jessica: And so that's one of the ways that it came up on my radar, but I was just so taken with it. And I can't wait for you to watch it, because the ones. The stuff that we've watched from Manhattan cable has usually been like, okay, but there's something wrong with these people. Like, I'm so happy that I get to see it. But clearly, like, not wrong. That's a wrong thing to say. But there's some neurodivergence happening here right now, and it's not making things easy. This. This is just a really fucking enthusiastic guy who cannot believe that he gets to have Sioux Si Su no matter how pissed she is on his show. So it's adorable. Find it. Check it out.

[51:50] Meg: I'm so excited. Jessica says she's got the tie in. So Jessica go.

[52:07] Jessica: What do Judy and Susie sue have in common?

[52:14] Meg: They don't want to be there.

[52:16] Jessica: Yes. And they are not even sure why they're there to begin with.

[52:23] Meg: My manager, my husband, George.

[52:26] Jessica: What the hell? Total failure across the board. That's. That's my tie in.

[52:32] Meg: That's beautiful. I love it. I want to encourage people again. Please send us your stories. We're going to start reaching out to you so that we've got some good stories.

[52:43] Jessica: I don't know if that's a threat or a cause.

[52:47] Meg: For some encouragement. It's capital E. Encouragement.

[52:50] Jessica: Encouragement. And you'd better do it. I'm encouraging you very hard.

[52:57] Meg: I'll just leave it there. I had another ask. That's enough of an ask. That's enough. All right. Have a great week, everybody. Happy fall.

[53:04] Jessica: Onward and upward. No pumpkin spice,

[53:16] Meg: Sam.