[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica, and Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City, where we still live and where we

[00:29] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:33] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:35] Meg: I heard from first Ben. Original Ben.

[00:39] Jessica: Original Ben.

[00:40] Meg: Original Ben.

[00:41] Jessica: Original Ben.

[00:43] Meg: And he had something to contribute to the discussion about cocktails.

[00:49] Jessica: I like how you had a little emphasis on that first syllable.

[00:53] Meg: Yes, this is from Ben. I make the 80s Odeon cosmopolitan to drink at home. Of course you do, Ben.

[01:02] Jessica: I also.

[01:04] Meg: Can I tell you a secret? Recently started making myself Long island iced teas. After not having one since college, I stumbled on a fancy artisanal recipe and suddenly realized I wanted to relive the past. Drinking a single Long island iced tea at home in your 40s while watching Joan Crawford movies is definitely a vibe.

[01:28] Jessica: Okay, Ben, basically every syllable of that statement makes me so happy. It's vivid, Ben. It's a vivid picture you paint.

[01:37] Meg: And then I asked him for the recipe.

[01:40] Jessica: Bless you.

[01:41] Meg: So, shall I share it with the world?

[01:43] Jessica: Yes, of course.

[01:44] Meg: All right. The Cosmo is 2 ounces of vodka, 1 ounce Cointreau, 1 ounce lime, and 1 ounce cranberry juice. I think it's a perfect cocktail and much more tart and less sweet and cloying than its reputation. Have you believe the guy has adapted the recipes since to make a smaller drink. But I guess in the 80s, they liked large fishbowl cocktails, and I approve of that.

[02:10] Jessica: So a full ounce of lime instead of just a squeeze.

[02:14] Meg: Oh, and it is garnished with a twist of lemon. And you're supposed to use absolute Citron. I've used both, and both are good. Also, apparently, Sandra Bernhard. Sandra.

[02:26] Jessica: Oh, my God. Sandra Bernhardt.

[02:27] Jessica: Yay.

[02:28] Meg: Love and Madonna. Love to throw them down at Odeon. The Long island recipe comes from J.M. hirsch's book Pour Me Another, which I recommend. I've made a few tweaks. It still has a lot of booze, but I think less than a real one. One ounce vodka, half an ounce blanco tequila, half an ounce gin, half an ounce white rum, half an ounce orange liqueur. I use Cointreau, 1 ounce lemon juice, 2 ounces cola soda. I sworn off caffeine, so I add half an ounce of Tippelman's Cola syrup to the booze before shaking, and then top the drink with a splash of club soda or seltzer. Shake all of the booze and lemon juice in a shaker with ice. Pour it over ice, add soda to top.

[03:16] Jessica: Wait, so wait, with the. That's three ounces of booze. The recipe for the Cosmopolitan is two ounces of vodka and one of Cointreau. Is that correct?

[03:27] Meg: I just listed so many things I couldn't tell you.

[03:29] Jessica: No, I'm just saying, I think that, like, my memory of what a long island I. And didn't he just say les booze?

[03:37] Meg: Yeah.

[03:37] Jessica: Oh, oh, oh, okay.

[03:38] Jessica: Yeah.

[03:38] Jessica: That was like 5 ounces of hooch, which was deadly.

[03:43] Meg: So now we've got the recipe, so we gotta try it out.

[03:47] Jessica: Did I ever tell you that I packaged a book a while ago that was called the Punch Bowl? And it was, among other things, it featured punch recipes from the 19th century and early 20th century. And I tested every recipe myself with my business partner. You've never seen two drunker women in your life. We were doing the recipe testing in her kitchen. No joke, lying on the floor at the end. So if you would like to do that with me, all I can say is, boy, do I recommend it. It's a good.

[04:34] Meg: Your engagement question today. Is there anything that cuts you more down to size than apartment hunting in New York City?

[04:46] Jessica: Oh, Meg, you know that I have an extraordinarily fragile ego. Just about everything cuts me down to size.

[04:54] Meg: But.

[04:55] Jessica: But apartment hunting in New York City, it's not that it cuts me down to size. It makes me flat out, and I really mean this, hysterical, like, crazed lunatic. I start making bad decisions. I like all kinds, like nutty, Cuckoo Kachoo.

[05:15] Meg: I guess I'm talking about, like, that specific thing when you have to sell yourself to the landlord or sell yourself to the mortgage broker or to the real estate agent.

[05:25] Jessica: Oh, no.

[05:26] Meg: You know what I did that you are worthy of even being shown an apartment? No.

[05:31] Jessica: You know what I did when I got into this building? I'm not even making this up because this makes me sound truly ridiculous. I cried and I got the apartment. I cried. I was coming out of another building where they had hiked my rent up by, like.

[05:47] Meg: I remember it was just over there, two blocks away.

[05:49] Jessica: Yeah, just on 90th. And I was so. And I, like, fought the landlord. I had a lawyer. I went crazy.

[05:56] Meg: It was a great apartment.

[05:58] Jessica: It was a great apartment.

[05:59] Meg: This is a nicer apartment.

[06:00] Jessica: This is a much better apartment. But it was also that I just wasn't. It was essential that I moved because I needed to get out of there. I was too rooted in a space that was not necessarily Psychically good for me. But I was so torqued up that by the time I met the people in the leasing office here, I just burst into tears. And they were like, what?

[06:24] Jessica: Like, I need a life change.

[06:26] Jessica: And they were like, you got it, baby.

[06:28] Meg: So, wow.

[06:29] Jessica: I'm just gonna say on, on this very podcast, when in doubt, cry.

[06:35] Meg: I have been spoken down to many times in my life.

[06:39] Jessica: This was all women.

[06:40] Meg: No, I'm telling my story.

[06:42] Jessica: Oh, I'm so sorry.

[06:45] Jessica: Enough about you, you asshole.

[06:47] Meg: No, I just started to tell my very vulnerable story and, and I'm just.

[06:54] Jessica: Please continue.

[06:56] Meg: So I'm glad you had a wonderful experience finding your apartment.

[06:59] Jessica: It wasn't wonderful.

[07:00] Jessica: It was, it was. I was trying to say it was genuinely unhinged. But I want to hear your story.

[07:06] Meg: I, I will just say that I've been spoken down to many a time in my life, which kind of sucks, but really very much so. When I've been either applying for an apartment, trying to get a mortgage, trying to talk to a board, that is really when people look. I felt like, looked me up and down from the very tip top of my head to the very tiny toenail and found me in some way lacking. Felt it.

[07:38] Jessica: How vulgar.

[07:40] Meg: Anyway, this is the setup for the story today.

[07:42] Jessica: I'm ready. And I hate whoever's in the story already. You've set me up to hate the board.

[07:49] Meg: My sources are really primarily a New York magazine article from April 1985. And then I backed it up with a bunch of sort of gossipy stories. Like if you do, if you Google New York City apartment gossip,

[08:11] Jessica: you come

[08:11] Meg: up with all kinds of stuff.

[08:12] Jessica: Oh, that sounds very fun.

[08:14] Meg: In 1981, Jeffrey and Linda, not their real names, were looking to buy an apartment on Park Avenue. Jeffrey was an investment banker at one of the big firms making $775,000 a year and had a portfolio quote well into the seven figures in 1981.

[08:36] Jessica: 1981, that's a lot of money.

[08:37] Meg: They had a three year old daughter and wanted to have another child. So the timing was ideal to find their perfect family home. But for two years, their broker kept telling them that the board of this building was kind of restrictive and that building was conservative or stuffy.

[08:59] Jessica: I know where this is going and I don't like it.

[09:01] Meg: Suspicious of the boards, but also impatient to get a home, Jeffrey and Linda told their broker to stop showing them apartments in those kinds of buildings. They just wanted to move already. Then in 1983, they finally signed a contract for an 850000 apartment on the upper east side. They would pay all cash. Their financials were solid. They just needed to ace the interview with the co op board. And they felt the interview went well. But then weeks after the interview, they were told that they were rejected and no reason for the rejection was provided. Because, as it turns out, a co op board can reject an applicant for any reason that isn't discriminatory. Now, what is discriminatory? That means the rejection can't be due to race, creed, national origin or sex. And that's all according to state civil rights law. And age, disability, and marital status according to state human rights law. Jeffrey suspected they'd been rejected because they were Jewish, knew it, which comes under creed. So he filed a complaint and the board members were questioned under oath. The board members confessed that Jeffrey and Linda were rejected because they, quote, hadn't exhibited sufficient cultural interests. And they, the board sensed Jeffrey was too absorbed in his work. They called him the entrepreneurial type. And the board claimed they were allowed to reject anyone they didn't like him. And that was within their rights. And they were correct. The city has always had co ops. The most desirable buildings on fifth and park are co op buildings. And they have always been the bastion of the old moneyed folk who ran in the same circles with each other. Co op rejections in those days were rare, but in 1971, Banks decided that they could treat co op shares as collateral and as a result began to offer mortgages to potential buyers. So suddenly, lots people qualified to be buyers, and developers started building co ops and turning rental buildings into co ops. Co ops, co ops everywhere. Also Moving into the 80s, there were lots more ways to make a lot of money in New York City. You didn't just have to inherit it. And those, quote, entrepreneurs wanted nice addresses. The co op boards of the past had been tasked with arranging for capital improvements, lobby decoration, hiring the doorman, and frankly, they already knew potential residents from old money circles. So vetting was simple. But now, with an eclectic applicant pool, they added to their task list. Gatekeeper. Even after someone had bought their apartment and moved in, co op boards could gatekeeper who stayed there. Donna, a single lawyer at a conservative firm in her 40s, lived in an Upper east side co op and started dating a taxi driver. Her boyfriend didn't move in, but he stayed over many nights and the neighbors didn't like it. There was a co op board rule in this building that no one except immediate family could have occupancy. So the board threatened to kick Donna out if she didn't dump her boyfriend. If she had been a renter, they would not have been able to do this. Renters rights allow for immediate family plus an additional occupant regardless of their relationship. Interesting, right? So renters had more protection than people who lived in co ops and still do, actually.

[13:14] Jessica: I wish that my face could be photographed and put right there.

[13:19] Meg: Donna skirted the co op's prudishness by marrying her taxi driver.

[13:25] Jessica: Ha ha.

[13:26] Jessica: Well played, Donna.

[13:29] Meg: Co ops frequently have rules about no guests without the host's presence. They restrict sublets. They can have a house rule that limits occupancy of a one bedroom to two adults, which would exclude a single mother and her child. While renters rights have been well litigated, discrimination against families with children is prohibited. Co op boards in the 1980s could pretty much do whatever they wanted. It just hadn't come up yet.

[14:04] Jessica: Isn't it the most New York thing in the world for Donna to marry someone to keep her apartment? Yes.

[14:11] Meg: Yes.

[14:12] Jessica: Ugh.

[14:13] Meg: Popular reasons people were rejected from co op boards in the 1980s. They had kids who looked noisy.

[14:22] Jessica: Looked, Looked.

[14:24] Meg: They were entertainers or diplomats or politicians or lawyers or opera singers or same sex couples or members of the garment industry.

[14:34] Jessica: For some reason, that's called Jews, baby. That's why members of the garment industry are Jews.

[14:38] Meg: Thank you. Or flippers.

[14:40] Jessica: Flip. Oh, oh, oh.

[14:41] Meg: Like flipping the apartment. Or they had another residence. Plus teenagers who the board suspected will use the apartment as a pad. And of course, for financial reasons, banks required borrowers to show an ability to meet their financial obligations. Pretty straightforward there, right? But co op boards demanded incomes five times greater than annual housing costs, plus assets of two and a half times the purchase price of the apartment. And then in one case, a board rejected a buyer because he had too much money. They feared he wouldn't be dedicated to the building. They had other places in Florida. I don't know. Many buildings upped their rejection rate. And the belief that the building's perceived exclusivity would increase the value of their apartments.

[15:40] Jessica: They're just bad people.

[15:41] Meg: They're bad people. And to be fair, being stuck with a deadbeat or obnoxious neighbor is the worst. Beyond the obvious issues of noise and smell and unappealing guests, there's always the issue of pets. If a building allows dogs, they will require an interview with said dog. In one case, the potential buyer had a feisty dachshund who would definitely blow the whole deal if the board met him. So she barred her sister's Sweet, well behaved dachshund for the interview.

[16:18] Jessica: Well played. I know that's what the board deserves.

[16:20] Meg: I love the people who are just like, give me like a couple days and I will find a workaround.

[16:27] Jessica: I will make this happen.

[16:29] Jessica: Oh my God. Stunt dachshund.

[16:32] Meg: Richard Nixon was rejected from 19 East 72nd Street. Barbra Streisand was rejected from 740 Fifth Avenue, 1121 Park Avenue and 1107 Fifth Avenue.

[16:46] Jessica: In what years?

[16:47] Meg: This is all in the late 70s into 80s. The San Remo famously, I mean a Jewish entertainer.

[16:54] Jessica: Could you think of anything lower?

[16:57] Meg: The San Remo famously denied Madonna in 1985.

[17:01] Jessica: I even remember that.

[17:03] Meg: And Calvin Klein in 1986. Who knows why? Because they were happy to accept Steve Martin, Demi Moore and Bruce Willis. Dustin Hoffman and Steven Spielberg, well none

[17:16] Jessica: of them were gay. The people you just named. And Madonna, well, we've covered a lot of Madonna publicity style antics.

[17:26] Meg: So Steven Spielberg was a terrible neighbor. His renovation lasted three years and involved jackhammering a marble floor.

[17:34] Jessica: Spielberg has gotta go.

[17:36] Meg: Well, he's paid for an office space for neighbors Marshall Brickman and Jackie Leo to smooth things over. Three years of jackhammers?

[17:47] Jessica: No.

[17:48] Meg: Due to the notoriously long and loud renovations of the 80s, most co ops now enact a house rule with penalties for every day that a renovation continues after its scheduled completion date. The owner must pay the co op fines, generally ranging from $250 to $500 a day.

[18:10] Jessica: I can only imagine what that did to clog the court system because all of those apartment owners were then suing the construction companies that were going over time like that's what a, what a mess.

[18:26] Meg: But also it's so interesting to find out that this mess that we grew up with, we always knew all this kind of stuff was going on. You hear rumors about this kind of thing all the time. But it actually was born in the 80s. Before the 80s everyone knew each other. It was mortgages, mortgages.

[18:43] Jessica: It's just so disappointing. And of course we know the discriminatory practices of all of those last hangers on of blue blood behavior. But so disappointing to hear about it. And enraging.

[18:57] Meg: Now we've said so many New York stories come down to real estate, here is a remarkable example of what can happen when rent control meets co op boards. Are you ready? It's a good one.

[19:10] Jessica: I am ready.

[19:12] Meg: Back in 1965, Diane Carroll sublet the 11th floor nine room rent controlled apartment at 173 Riverside Drive at 89th street for just $500 a month. Okay, let's just imagine that block right now. Oh, I mean, oh my God. Like nine rooms on Riverside Drive for $500 a month.

[19:44] Jessica: Oh my God.

[19:45] Jessica: Three blocks from the crosstown bus. Convenient.

[19:48] Meg: Lawrence Eno, the rent controlled tenant of record, lived in another apartment in the building and didn't need the one he rented to Diane. He ended up handing over the rights to the apartment to Diane Carroll. He was fine with it. He didn't need it. She'd been living there for a while. All good, with the stipulation that if the building went co op and she decided to purchase it, Eno had the right to buy it back at the original purchase price when or if she was ready to sell and move. Did you follow that?

[20:24] Jessica: Yes, I did.

[20:25] Meg: Okay, so.

[20:26] Jessica: So in other words, she would have to take a giant loss.

[20:29] Meg: No, I don't think she would take a loss. She just wouldn't make a killing if she buys it when it goes co op at a pretty.

[20:36] Jessica: Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[20:37] Jessica: Cheap rate.

[20:38] Jessica: Oh, I see. Yes, yes, yes. I got it, I got it.

[20:41] Meg: He just doesn't want her to make a huge profit a few years down the line.

[20:45] Jessica: I got it.

[20:46] Meg: He doesn't want her to use it as an investment property.

[20:49] Jessica: Got it.

[20:50] Meg: When the building went co op in 1968, Diane Carroll did decide to buy the apartment and she only paid $25,175 for it.

[21:02] Jessica: That is shocking.

[21:05] Meg: Lawrence Eno was still in the building and became a member of the co op board. When Diane Carroll tried to sell the apartment for over a million dollars in 1995, Lawrence, like Rumpelstiltskin, came a knockin'.

[21:25] Jessica: If Diane wanted to sell, she'd have

[21:29] Meg: to offer it to the now 81 year old Lawrence for $25,175. So Diane Carroll decided to stay put.

[21:40] Jessica: I was just going to say you wait him out, Diane.

[21:44] Jessica: You wait him out. I didn't even think about that. Just wait for him. Wait for him to die.

[21:49] Jessica: Well, I mean, you're the one who brought up that he was 81. God help him. Co op words New York. I mean, this apartment that we're sitting in right now, like I am, I've told you many times, and you know this quite well, I have a very good deal. I can't move. That's great. That's it. This is it for the rest. And it's rent controlled.

[22:14] Meg: It's rent controlled. It's well located. You've got incredible light, you've got wonderful space. Why would you I'm just.

[22:21] Jessica: Well, I. You know what, I still have a deep, deep need for a dining room, but I know that that's just not going to happen.

[22:28] Meg: Is there any place it's like, can you upgrade in the building?

[22:33] Jessica: Well, I'm already in a two bedroom.

[22:34] Meg: Is that as big as they get?

[22:36] Jessica: I think you can get a three bedroom. Like, there are tons of people who have a dining table in the apartment. Just the way that I have it configured. It's not that way. And because I'm against change, I can't possibly reconfigure my furniture. But yeah, no, this is. I know that I am now in that moment of, you cannot move. This is it.

[23:02] Meg: I will die in my apartment, as you well know, happily so.

[23:06] Jessica: Well, you have a great apartment.

[23:07] Meg: Hard one.

[23:09] Jessica: Trust me, I'm aware of this. But you also have a gigantic apartment.

[23:14] Meg: Again, hard one. I know it didn't start gigantic.

[23:18] Jessica: No, no.

[23:18] Jessica: You broke through to the neighbors.

[23:21] Meg: Yeah. And they went screaming,

[23:26] Jessica: chased them out of town.

[23:28] Jessica: You just like, they see a hammer come through the wal and you're like doing a full Jack Nicholson like, I'm here. Get the fuck out.

[23:50] Meg: You know how we managed to get the apartment next door?

[23:54] Jessica: I know, you've told me and I've totally forgotten.

[23:57] Meg: So the guy who lived there hated the neighborhood, hated the building and was just a grumpus all the time. And so I knew he wasn't long for the building and so I basically like sort of stalked him.

[24:12] Jessica: Did you begin a campaign of terror?

[24:14] Meg: No. Oh, by no means. I did it with niceness. I was just like, hey, how are you feeling?

[24:19] Jessica: Nice to be scared.

[24:20] Meg: How's this going?

[24:20] Jessica: Nice is going.

[24:21] Jessica: Nice is coming.

[24:22] Meg: No, no. Chatting him up and just going like whenever you want to, you know, move on, just let us know and maybe we could just do it together without going through brokers. And that's what ended up happening.

[24:37] Jessica: Well, good for you.

[24:38] Meg: As soon as he was ready to go, he was like, knock, knock, knock, knock. It is time.

[24:43] Jessica: Well played.

[24:44] Meg: Thank you.

[24:44] Jessica: Well done. Well, I didn't choose the word terrorism lightly. Today I'm going to talk a little bit about theater.

[24:54] Meg: Okay. When did you use the word terrorism?

[24:57] Jessica: Didn't I just that you were terrorizing your neighbor to get the apartment? Okay, what I'm going to talk about today is June 19, 1981. Frank Rich of the New York Times reviewed a play. The play was called Baader Meinhof Days. So very quickly, Baader Meinhof syndrome is something that has nothing to do with who they were or what their. What this play is about. But just as a quick aside, you know when you see a red Volkswagen and then you see Volkswagens every place?

[25:36] Meg: Yes.

[25:36] Jessica: That is called Baader Meinhof syndrome. Who knew? That's I right.

[25:41] Meg: Did you?

[25:42] Jessica: No, no. I understood the syndrome, but I did not know from where it hailed. So Bader Meinhof actually refers to two people who are part of a much larger group called the raf. Red Army Faction, not Royal Air Force. And the RAF was a domestic terrorist group in Germany. And they engaged in a series of bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, bank robberies and shootouts with the police over the course of three decades, culminating in 1977 in what was called the German Autumn National Crisis.

[26:25] Meg: So this is Post World War II.

[26:27] Jessica: Post World War II. And in fact, these urban modern terrorists, as they referred to themselves, were very anti the older generations and felt that they had not been properly condemned or assumed responsibility for their Nazi activities.

[26:46] Meg: Okie dokie.

[26:47] Jessica: But they weren't all good. They had a lot bad to them as well.

[26:51] Meg: They just tend to be in the next bag.

[26:53] Jessica: Thank you.

[26:54] Jessica: Well said. But they were a very interesting and very, very indicative of the time. And so Frank Rich reviewed a play that was about the raf. So I made a mistake. The play is not called Bader Meinhof Days. That's how Frank Rich titled his article.

[27:15] Meg: Oh, what's the play?

[27:16] Jessica: It's called How It All Began.

[27:18] Meg: Okay.

[27:18] Jessica: Okay.

[27:19] Meg: And what is the date again?

[27:21] Jessica: June 19, 1981. Okay. Now, it didn't get a great review. It was actually a piece that was done by the graduating class at Juilliard that year. The theater students, they were called Group 10. And they put together something that interested them greatly. They did a huge amount of research that they made a big. And they created this play that was somewhat improvisational about the Baader Meinhof group. So, yeah, so it didn't get a great review.

[27:57] Meg: Can I ask some questions?

[27:58] Jessica: Anything.

[27:58] Meg: Go right ahead. So it's a student production. Why is it getting a Frank Rich review?

[28:03] Jessica: Because Joe Papp brought it to the Public Theater.

[28:07] Meg: So it had a second life.

[28:09] Jessica: Very quickly, on the heels of the original production, it was taken over to the Public Theater. So great question. That is why? And here's some things that Frank Rich had to say about it.

[28:21] Jessica: People.

[28:21] Jessica: The students who wrote the play and acted in it neglected to bring their characters to life as people. But they filled out the story of the person who wrote the book that this was based on. His name was Bauman. They filled out his Story very well. He said the company would rather tell us the date of every single event in Mr. Bauman's story than refract those events through an incisive point of view. Not great. He even says, we also see in banal shorthand how the hypocritical sexism of male radicals alienated their female peers.

[28:57] Meg: Well, that's important to take note of.

[28:59] Jessica: Yes, but he really takes exception to the banal use of the songs My Generation, Working Class Hero and Sympathy for the Devil by these students. Okay, so Frank is cranky, as per usual. Then he talks a little bit about the actors and he says, with the exception of the amiable but mechanical actor who plays the lead, the actors are serviceable but not really memorable. Keep that in mind. So we're now going to go to 1983. This is a story, this play, about 1957. Picture it. 1957, Scotland. A fabric mill and design and dying factory. And the play is, again, not very well reviewed.

[29:50] Meg: This is a new play.

[29:51] Jessica: This is a new play. March 8, 1983. But the cast is really notable because two of the leads are played by Sean Penn and Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. Oh, my goodness, yes. And they play two young working class men who are best friends and they wanna get out of this racket.

[30:15] Meg: They didn't go to Juilliard.

[30:16] Jessica: No, they didn't. But there are a couple of other people in the cast, one of whom was also in this Is How. What the hell was it called? This is how it happened. See, it's such a bad play, I can't even remember the title. Anyway, so the one that I'm describing right now is called Slab Boys and they're making carpets. So in Scotland, Kevin Bacon gets a really good review. He's only known as the kid from Diner at that point.

[30:48] Meg: What a great movie.

[30:50] Jessica: And Sean Penn is noted as a real up and comer. And the photograph of Sean Penn is absolutely outstanding. He's nearly unrecognizable. He's such a baby. A baby face. That's right. How it all began. But the person who's really most notable in Slab Boys, he wasn't a working class boy. Got the best reviews, was the youngest person to ever be accepted to Juilliard in the drama department at 17 years old in 1977, he made waves in every single thing that he did. He was in Tis Pity She's a Whore in 1992, returning to the Public Theater and directed by your friend Meg, Joanne Acolytis. And then a year after Slab Boys June 22, 1984 premieres the movie that puts him on the map forever. Top Secret.

[31:46] Meg: Oh, I know who you're talking about.

[31:48] Jessica: And so this little bit that I'm doing today is actually an obituary for the beloved Val Kilmer, who embodied the 80s in so many movies like Top Secret. Real Genius.

[32:05] Meg: Real Genius.

[32:07] Jessica: And of course, Top Gun. And the subject of. As Iceman. And the subject of one of the best monologues ever by Quentin Tarantino in, I believe the movie Sleep With Me, where he explains to someone obnoxiously at a cocktail party who he corners in the kitchen, explaining that Iceman and Maverick are clearly in love with each other. And the culmination is at the very end when Iceman says to Maverick, you can ride my tail anytime. So many 80s movies are synonymous with the constantly growing and notoriously wonderful career of Val Kilmer, who died yesterday. He had throat cancer. He died at the age of 65. A tip of the hat to Val Kilmer today.

[32:59] Meg: So wait, going back to that first review.

[33:02] Jessica: Yes.

[33:02] Jessica: Just for a second, just to tie it all together.

[33:05] Jessica: So in that first.

[33:07] Meg: And what was the name of that show?

[33:09] Jessica: Oh, I've already forgotten it. It's like I got so distracted with like.

[33:14] Meg: Maybe that was. The problem with that first show is that it was so poor.

[33:17] Jessica: The problem with the show was that it was a student production that involved improvisation, which is like hard place to start. Yes, it's called How It All Began.

[33:26] Meg: Okay, How It All Began Story.

[33:29] Jessica: Yes.

[33:29] Meg: Wait, what is it again?

[33:31] Jessica: How It All Began.

[33:32] Meg: And what was the subtitle?

[33:34] Jessica: Well, it's. Frank Rich's a 60s terrorist story.

[33:38] Meg: A 60s terrorist story. And what was the whole thing about the syndrome.

[33:43] Jessica: That's just an aside that. Can you believe it? Like, it's. The whole thing is about these urban terrorists who are guerrilla, like waging guerrilla warfare in East Germany and. And totally randomly. Baader Meinhof syndrome is when you see something once and then you can't unsee it and you're seeing it all around you. Totally unrelated. But that is the name of that syndrome, isn't that right?

[34:08] Meg: What does that have to do with.

[34:09] Jessica: Nothing. I don't know. It's just a fact. It's just a weird. I'm bringing up the fact because it's such a weird fact that doesn't seem to be related to Baader Meinhof. Who are Botter Minov?

[34:22] Meg: Why is that part of this?

[34:24] Jessica: Oh, they were the. Like the ones who founded the Red Army Faction. Oh, yeah. They were the terrorists who Started everything.

[34:33] Meg: Okay, all right.

[34:34] Jessica: We're going full, full circle.

[34:37] Meg: I. I honestly think that people will

[34:39] Jessica: appreciate all my questions at the end. Oh, well, I'm so sorry that I. I made that assumption.

[34:44] Meg: And then the people who were in that class in Juilliard who did the show.

[34:50] Jessica: No, it was just a bunch of Juilliard students. And the only person who got an even remotely reasonable review as affable was Val Kilmer.

[34:59] Meg: Oh, he was in the first show.

[35:01] Jessica: Yeah, he was in both of them. Okay, let me just do a better wrap up. Okay? Two shows, 1981. Juilliard students, including Val Kilmer, pour their hearts and souls into trying to tell the Baader Meinhof story. They do a shit job. Unfortunately, as per Frank Rich, Joe Papp does not agree. He brings it to the public. It doesn't run for a long time. Two Years later, in 1983, baby Val Kilmer winds up in a play with baby Kevin Bacon and baby Sean Penn. A better review than the first show, but still not great. But the three actors that I've just named all get very good reviews. And Sean Penn particularly, they're like, get a load of this, kid. But all of them very, very good. As a complete aside, because it has nothing to do with terrorism. Isn't it interesting that Baader Meinhof Syndrome is what you call it when you see a red Volkswagen and then you see them everywhere? Totally interesting, right? And then in summation, counselor, Val Kilmer, he was in all of those things. Then he ruled the 80s, Iceman, and yesterday he died.

[36:16] Jessica: Okay, that's the story. Hey, Jessica. Thank you. I needed that wrap up so much.

[36:25] Jessica: Look, I'm very tired today.

[36:27] Jessica: Clearly.

[36:27] Jessica: I was just so excited by the facts, I couldn't be bothered to relate

[36:32] Jessica: to you in any way.

[36:36] Jessica: I became one of the Juilliard students

[36:38] Jessica: who was criticized for being so interested

[36:40] Jessica: by their own research they forgot to write a play.

[36:45] Jessica: See?

[36:46] Jessica: Life imitates art.

[36:58] Meg: Okay, so wait, there's just one more thing to clarify.

[37:01] Jessica: Just one more thing to clarify. It is not one person named Bader Hyphen Meinhof. It's two people. Meinhof a woman, and Botter a guy. And the reason they both started the

[37:16] Meg: Red army faction, which that play was about.

[37:21] Jessica: Correct.

[37:21] Meg: Okay.

[37:22] Jessica: And completely randomly. And this is why I thought it was interesting with no rhyme or reason attached to it. No explanation, doesn't have to do with them at all. That thing when someone says pink elephants, and then you. You always see pink elephants. Like you're like, what the. Like, they're Everywhere, all over the city. What is that? That happens to be called Baader Meinhof syndrome.

[37:47] Meg: And you're sure it's unrelated?

[37:49] Jessica: To the best of my knowledge at this time.

[37:52] Meg: Maybe somebody knows. That's really interesting.

[37:54] Jessica: So great.

[37:55] Jessica: Write in. Let us know.

[37:57] Meg: Now, how should we tie this up?

[38:01] Jessica: You know, I just want to have a quick caveat here. All right.

[38:03] Meg: This is so much fun. I have to say, I had a lot of joy for the last half hour.

[38:08] Jessica: I am so glad that you did. I just wanted out there that sometimes, you know, people get tired.

[38:16] Meg: You should not make any excuse. I will not stand for it.

[38:19] Jessica: I feel that I led you on a wild Val Kilmer goose chase.

[38:23] Jessica: We got the goose. Wait, that was one of the characters. That was one of the characters in Top Gun. That was Anthony Edwards. Oh, my God. Goose. That's the twin. Goose. Goose. Oh, my God.

[38:40] Meg: This is a great time to ask our listeners.

[38:45] Jessica: Tell a friend about this podcast. We really want to spread a word. We're ready to go national in a bigger way. Come on. Let me tell people how great we are. Please, Sam.