[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s.

[00:18] Jessica: I am Meg and I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City. We.

[00:27] Meg: Where we still live and where we podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines and

[00:32] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:33] Meg: How has your week been, Jessica?

[00:35] Jessica: Hectic.

[00:36] Meg: Yeah?

[00:37] Jessica: Yes, I had a very, very hectic filled, crazy, both work, obligation, family, cooking, the whole shebang. And as you know, I. I put myself to rights today by cleaning my apartment, which makes me feel much less insane.

[00:56] Meg: And it's genuinely spring. It is gorgeous outside.

[01:02] Jessica: It's beyond beautiful. It was 83 degrees here today.

[01:06] Meg: I walked everywhere.

[01:08] Jessica: And I'm all over the place, really. In. In a wool sweater, cashmere.

[01:13] Meg: Thank you.

[01:13] Jessica: Girl. I've been schooled on your.

[01:17] Meg: But I don't have a jacket, so this is it.

[01:19] Jessica: No, that's. I.

[01:20] Meg: It's kind of perfect sometimes it felt a little warm, but.

[01:22] Jessica: Well, I'm glad that you got your. Your walk on. Did you do your 10,000 steps?

[01:27] Meg: More than that. I think I'm at 13. Thank you, Ma.

[01:30] Jessica: God. Just from shuttling back and forth between the washing machine, the dishwasher and all of the crap in my apartment, I may be. I don't know. I'm gonna go with 6,000. That's something.

[01:44] Meg: Well, in your apartment that would be impressive.

[01:47] Jessica: You have no idea what I have clocked sometimes like in my mania of cleaning or whatever. But I am so happy to start a new week. And we're with you. How was your week?

[01:59] Meg: It was great. I went to Providence to see Alice's film festival. She was in a film.

[02:05] Jessica: I saw, I saw and I, of course, I.

[02:08] Meg: She was wonderful.

[02:08] Jessica: Looked at all of your.

[02:10] Meg: Your postings and I'm going back this week because she directed a film.

[02:16] Jessica: This is amazing.

[02:18] Meg: Amazing.

[02:19] Jessica: Congratulations to Alice on her. Her immersion in cinema.

[02:23] Meg: And I'm so happy that it's so accessible that I can just zip there and zip back.

[02:27] Jessica: And how long is the train ride to Providence?

[02:30] Meg: Oh, don't ask me. I mean, it depends on whether you take the Acela or you take the.

[02:34] Jessica: I find the acela only takes 20

[02:36] Meg: minutes off, but Jo and I are actually going to drive. He's coming with me this week.

[02:41] Jessica: Oh, nice. Yeah, very nice. Well, can I.

[02:44] Meg: We're going to have a little celebration with her crew.

[02:48] Jessica: Nice.

[02:48] Meg: So I'm bringing a platter from Butterfield.

[02:50] Jessica: Of course you are.

[02:51] Meg: Of course I am.

[02:52] Jessica: Of course you're bringing Butterfields. What's all the platter? Mini quiche or what else?

[02:58] Meg: I did canape. I thought about the mini quiche, but then I was like, well, we'll have to heat it up, and that's a pain in the butt. No, no, no. We've got more important things to do than heat up mini quiche. So I did canape.

[03:10] Jessica: I like it.

[03:21] Meg: Who's your favorite Muppet?

[03:24] Jessica: This is a very interesting question.

[03:26] Meg: You have to choose. Only one.

[03:29] Jessica: It's gonna be Gonzo. Ah. I love it. I mean, it's gotta be Gonzo. I mean, who else? Who else, really? He's so.

[03:37] Meg: So great.

[03:38] Jessica: He's so. He's so bananas and so tender and loving, and he has a girlfriend who's a chicken. And he wears. He likes to wear bow ties. And he's an alien.

[03:50] Meg: And he's such good energy.

[03:52] Jessica: He's the best energy in the universe.

[03:55] Meg: I mean, when other people are fretting, he's usually like, it'll be okay.

[04:00] Jessica: It's gonna work out. My number two choice. What?

[04:04] Meg: I said only one. Okay, fine. I'll give you a second one.

[04:08] Jessica: Well, my number two choice is not a single Muppet. It's a collective. It's Dr. Teeth and the Electric Mayhem.

[04:14] Meg: Oh, I thought you were gonna say something different.

[04:16] Jessica: What do you think I was gonna say?

[04:17] Meg: Statler and Waldorf?

[04:19] Jessica: Oh, I mean, I deeply, deeply love them, but is gonzo and then Dr. Teeth and the Electric Mayhem. I had Dr. Teeth baseball sweatshirt, and I wore it to ballet class, and I would get teased for it by the ballet bun head jerks. No, I just doubled down and loved them harder.

[04:40] Meg: You could do it.

[04:41] Jessica: Yeah, fuck them. So. And you. Am I gonna learn from your.

[04:47] Meg: My story today? Okay, actually, all of my sources are cited in my story, so I'm just gonna jump in.

[04:56] Jessica: I'm so excited.

[04:57] Meg: On July 13, 1984, Miss Piggy and Kermit the Frog got married in the final scene of the Muppets Take Manhattan. The movie, which I did watch this weekend, is a delightful romp through early 80s New York City and features cameos by Dabney Coleman, Ell, Elliot Gould, Linda Lavin, Liza Minnelli, Brooke Shields, Joan Rivers, Ed Koch. I mean, really, could it be more 80s? No, the story is that the Muppets, Miss Piggy, Kermit, Fozzie, Scooter, Gonzo the chicken, the whole gang.

[05:40] Jessica: Dr. T, Camilla to you.

[05:42] Meg: So sorry. I mean, everybody's there. And they put on a show called Manhattan Melodies for their college thesis.

[05:53] Jessica: Wait, what?

[05:54] Meg: Yes, they are in college, at the opening of the movie.

[05:59] Jessica: How they are. Did I manage to forget that entirely?

[06:03] Meg: Students and their final show. They're seniors and their final show is Manhattan Melodies.

[06:10] Jessica: This is so bonkers.

[06:11] Meg: And it goes so well. I mean, you know, it's the kind. It's a song and dance show. I recall that much from what we can tell. And it goes so well that they are encouraged to take it to Broadway. Because that's what you do, right? Clearly, once they get to the city, it doesn't go as smoothly as they would have hoped. The city is hard. Showbiz is tough. No spoilers, because really, everybody needs to go out and see this movie. But I will say there is a happy ending, namely the marriage of Miss Piggy and Kerman. But not everybody was happy about that. Gary Arnold of the Washington Post accused Jim Henson and Frank Oz of pinning, quote, everything on a poorly calculated and staged marital spectacular as Miss Piggy finally cons Kermit to the altar. A terminally sappy bad idea to begin. Begin with grumpus.

[07:15] Jessica: I have a lot of social analysis reactions to that.

[07:22] Meg: Hold on to them for a heartbeat.

[07:24] Jessica: I promise I'm holding.

[07:26] Meg: Rob Salem of the Toronto Star wrote, quote, now that the pig and the frog are blissfully wedded, it's time to lay them to rest. Otherwise, In Muppet Movie 4, they'll be forced to deal with the reality of married life between a pretend pig and a phony frog. And that could get a little tricky.

[07:48] Jessica: Okay, so I just have to ask, are these guys, A, divorced and unhappy? B, are they the thin edge of the wedge on fuck straight marriage being the end all be all of existence just putting that out there, or just horrible sociopaths who don't like the Muppet? Like, what's wrong with you?

[08:16] Meg: I'm happy to report the wedding, which, incidentally, in the movie was presented as possibly real, possibly a scene in the play, possibly a fantasy. It's a little murky there.

[08:29] Jessica: Oh, it sounds a lot like the boyfriend. Like Tommy Toon and Twiggy. Do you remember that?

[08:33] Meg: Oh, I don't remember the last scene. Well, same idea.

[08:37] Jessica: Well, just, you know, these ambiguous, like, we're all together now. Hot cha Cha.

[08:42] Meg: Yeah, yeah.

[08:43] Jessica: Black, you know, fade to black.

[08:44] Meg: Got it. Okay, well, none of this, the wedding, whether it was real, fantasy, whatever, it didn't slow Miss Piggy down. She had already reached iconic status since her debut in 1976.

[08:59] Jessica: Did you own Miss Piggy's Guide to Life and a Miss Piggy puppet?

[09:03] Meg: I owned Miss Piggy's Guide to Life, which we will discuss in a moment. And a calendar, a Miss Piggy calendar that I had on my wall for years. So it didn't actually correlate with any particular date.

[09:19] Jessica: It was just art.

[09:20] Meg: It was such awesome Miss Piggy. More Miss Piggy every month. And then we get to start over again.

[09:26] Jessica: You know, Miss Piggy was such a proto feminist icon, and I'm sure that this is the basis of so much hate.

[09:34] Meg: She was designed by Bonnie Erickson, who also designed Statler and Waldorf, incidentally. And according to Frank Oz, who we know performed her until 2002, this is Frank Oz's history of her quote she grew up in a small town, most likely Keystone, Iowa. Her father died when she was young, and her mother wasn't that nice to her. She had to enter beauty contests to survive. She has a lot of vulnerability, which she has to hide because of her need to be a superstar.

[10:10] Jessica: Is Frank Oz basically just giving us the backstory on All About Eve? Is that what's happening here?

[10:16] Meg: To help him get into character, Frank Oz assigned a hook for each of the Muppets he performed. Ms. Piggy's hook was a truck driver wanting to be a woman.

[10:29] Jessica: Oh my God, that's fantastic.

[10:32] Meg: Miss Piggy is a bilingual diva pig who exudes charm. She is demanding, rightfully so, and she knows karate. If she is insulted, the resulting karate chop with her signature Hiya. Will set all things right. In Miss Piggy's Guide to Life, which I did read cover to cover over the last week in 1981 it was printed, she writes, quote, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and it may be necessary from time to time to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye.

[11:11] Jessica: Oh,

[11:14] Meg: Beauty is just one chapter of her book. She also gives advice on entertaining, finance, food success, and travel. In her chapter about depression, she suggests listing things that have not happened that really would be super depressing, like telephones have not been invented and I could have a dentist appointment in an hour. She also suggests sitting in front of a mirror and reminding yourself of all your talents and accomplishments and successes. And taking a page from Scarlett o', Hara, she reminds her readers that, quote, no matter how bad things may seem, it is always better in the morning. In her chapter about dieting, she reminds us that carrying a purse expends 10 calories. Entering a restaurant and sitting down takes 9 calories. Moving to a better table, I thought you would appreciate that.

[12:11] Jessica: Yes, that's like my entire life is four calories.

[12:14] Meg: I think you probably get more calories

[12:15] Jessica: than four, I think. Well, there's arguing that expels some calories, I think. I think that's a bad count.

[12:21] Meg: In her fashion chapter, she lists basics as silk, satin, cashmere and chocolate and le boubou as ultra suede mesh, wooden jewelry and lint.

[12:35] Jessica: I love that there was that time

[12:39] Meg: where people were wearing wooden jewelry.

[12:42] Jessica: That was all on the Upper west side. But I have a question. How could ultra suede be a boo boo if that was also the era of Halston? I take it up. Did Halston like we have to find out if there was a Halston Muppets crossover and someone was like, that bitch will never have him again. Nor his ultra suede.

[13:02] Meg: For the thin look, buy clothes two sizes too large. For the rich look, leave a couple price tags on accidentally and add zeros where they will do the most good. For the glamorous look, choose plain looking dining companions. Her overall aesthetic Quote A well known architect named someone or other once said, less is more. That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. Less is less. In 2015, Ms. Piggy was awarded the Sackler Center First Award from the Elizabeth A. Sackler in center for Feminist Art at the Brooklyn Museum, which is given to women who have broken barriers and charted changes in all disciplines and areas. Past honorees include Sandra Day o', Connor, Toni Morrison, and Anita Hill. Gloria Steinem presented the award to Miss Piggy when some questioned why Miss Piggy was an appropriate recipient for a feminist award considering she is known for ardently pursuing a recalcitrant Kermit for years and for privileging fashion and beauty, and for using the moniker miss over the miss option. Ms. Piggy responded in an article published in Time magazine, quote, it's true, I did not march in women's rights parades down Fifth Avenue in the early 1970s. That was long before I was born. However, today, in solidarity with my feminist foremothers, I go shopping on Fifth Avenue whenever possible. And it is true, I did not burn my bra. Was this a political statement? No, it was simple common sense economics. When one pays top dollar for intimate apparel like moi does, setting it ablaze is wasteful, improvident, and highly incendiary. And yes, it is true that I am a porcine American. How can a comedy pig be a feminist? After all, the P word has long been associated with the very antithesis of feminists. Male chauvinist. This, alas, is a vestige of latent speciesism. Sure, there are male chauvinist Pigs. But there are also male chauvinist humans. And on very rare occasions, and at their own peril, male chauvinist amphibians. Let us not besmirch an entire species because of the sins of a few. On a personal note, I graduated from idolizing Wonder Woman. So that was when I was preteen. To idolizing Miss Piggy and then eventually idolizing Madonna. So I'm thinking to myself, what do they all have in common? Like, they're independent, physically strong, unapologetically female. They're divas who carry their own luggage. That's what I thought of, like, because they can and they'll do it better than anybody else in the opening. Oh, I also thought, like, they're all very boob focused.

[16:14] Jessica: Oh, that's interesting. But Miss Piggy had sort of like a just.

[16:17] Meg: She always had a child. She had a low cut.

[16:20] Jessica: But there wasn't cleavage, was there?

[16:23] Meg: No, but it was like a.

[16:26] Jessica: No, no.

[16:26] Meg: I'm just saying it was not known for turtlenecks.

[16:30] Jessica: Oh, yes, entirely true. It was a low cut.

[16:33] Meg: Bone bras. And then we have Wonder Woman and her strapless Wonder Woman.

[16:37] Jessica: I mean, give me a break.

[16:39] Meg: In the opening chapter of her book, Ms. Piggy writes. I love this so much. Beauty is being yourself. Start with what you are, not with what you wish you were or what those silly magazines tell you you ought to be. Then add those dozens of teensy little touches that bring out the beauty that's already there. Believe it or not, most great beauties were not born beautiful. Of course, there are always a few conventional pretty faces who find their way onto soap packages and into bug spray ads. But they lack that inner depth, that unique style that is shared by women like moi self who have made themselves beautiful. Quick, tried to recall to mind the most recent Miss America winner. You can't. I didn't think so. Frankly, neither can I. But now try to picture Lauren Bacall, Katharine Hepburn or moi. You see? I rest my case.

[17:42] Jessica: Interesting. What I want to know is who wrote all of Miss Piggy's books Dialogue. Like, who is the actual voice behind. I know, Frank Oz, but. And I'm sure that he ad libbed, but who's the real writer on all of this?

[18:02] Meg: A guy named Henry Beard wrote this book.

[18:07] Jessica: Why does that name ring a bell? What else has he done?

[18:10] Meg: I couldn't tell you.

[18:11] Jessica: I know that name. Quick, look it up.

[18:14] Meg: Okay, I just quickly looked it up. He'd written a lot of parody books, including OJ's Legal Pad, which actually, I

[18:22] Jessica: have to say is very fucked up, but very funny. I remember when it came out.

[18:28] Meg: I'm impressed, because he really does capture her voice. I think you could very easily turn her into a very shallow person. And that is not what comes across in the book at all. She really is like someone who respects herself and also other people. I know it sounds sort of crazy.

[18:51] Jessica: No, it's not that it sounds. It doesn't sound crazy at all. I mean, she was a pop culture icon. And, you know, after she was introduced, initially, you know, she caught on with little girls for a reason. Like the same way that Wonder Woman did, you know, and Madonna with tweens. Like, there's a reason. And she was a character to look up to. But what I think is so interesting. Interesting, and I know it's not lost on you for a second, is that she sprang from the minds of Jim Henson, Frank Oz, who said that she's basically a drag queen.

[19:29] Meg: Well, clearly.

[19:30] Jessica: And that Henry Beard wrote the book, and who knows who wrote all of the other, you know, like the answer in Time magazine. So it's a quandary, isn't it? Cause it's like, this is a feminist icon entirely created by men. And so what do you do?

[19:49] Meg: Except initially she was created by a woman.

[19:51] Jessica: Well, the design. Right. The physical being of her. But. But then what do you do with that? Right. That it's kind of like, does it matter?

[20:01] Meg: I'm okay with it. I'm completely okay with it because it is positive and it's fun, and she doesn't take herself too seriously.

[20:10] Jessica: Oh, I agree with you. I'm just trying to put myself in the. In the shoes of critics. Right. So I'm imagining the. I mean, I was sort of laughing when you said that. It was a Sackler award.

[20:24] Meg: Oh, yeah.

[20:25] Jessica: Because I'm like, oh, okay. Well, they're not exactly on the firmest footing. But, you know, it's. So that happened in 2015. So could you imagine if that happened, like, now? I just feel like the gender frenzy would not stand for it. I'm just putting that out there.

[20:46] Meg: Do you think he would get a feminist award?

[20:48] Jessica: Yes, absolutely.

[20:49] Meg: Why not? It's about her qualities.

[20:51] Jessica: So I think that her qualities as a girl, when I read it, she was audacious, and she gave permission to be a karate chopper as a young person. As a child, you know, if you behaved outrageously, to be able to say to your parents, who were busy buying you Miss Piggy's stuff, hey, she's doing it.

[21:14] Meg: Yeah, completely. I think also. And We've talked about this on the podcast a little bit, how in the 80s, we were presented with really kind of one way to be cute and beautiful.

[21:28] Jessica: It was.

[21:29] Meg: It was the Christie Brinkley model. And her approach to that was like, actually, nah, I don't think so. I think you can be whoever you want to be. In fact, I was thinking about it a lot. Like, the whole thing with Kermit is really interesting because in the whole thing with Kermit, because she's pursuing him, and she keeps saying, we have this love affair. And he's like, no, we don't. And so it's like, all right, is she a little delusional? I mean, is everything okay there? Is she. Is that all right? Like, is she stalking him? But the fact is, like, he ends up coming around like, there is something. It's.

[22:13] Jessica: I wish you could see my face right now. Again, it's slightly troublesome. Is that the message?

[22:22] Meg: And yet I don't feel like it ultimately is. I feel like it has the danger of being. And yet it isn't.

[22:29] Jessica: No, I mean, it's comedy. It's a pig running after a frog, and they're puppets. And she.

[22:35] Meg: This is it, too, that she creates her own reality.

[22:39] Jessica: Well, which does not always work out well for people, but for. For her, I think. Yes, I get your. I get your point entirely. It's. Create your own reality. You know what it is? Miss Piggy was the first manifestor.

[22:55] Meg: I think so fake. It was.

[22:56] Jessica: She was busy manifesting, I love Kermit, Kermit loves me, and so it shall be.

[23:02] Meg: And then it was. And I am a star. And she became a star. I mean, really, she's a rather subversive role model. I would even say.

[23:13] Jessica: Well, I mean, cut to RuPaul's Drag Race. Cut to everyone who's being what they're not supposed to be. She's supposed to be in the sty. I was laughing as you were like, you know, her creators were bucking the concept of what was cute at the time. Like, Christie Brinkley. I'm like, miss Piggy was a blonde. Give me a break. And then I was like, jessica, what are you thinking? She's a pig. Like, give yourself a break.

[23:41] Meg: She had many different looks.

[23:43] Jessica: Yes. Do you remember when she sported an afro?

[23:46] Meg: That was in Muppy Muppets take.

[23:47] Jessica: Oh, was it. Oh, my God. That was, I think, pretty much that whole movie. She's.

[23:52] Meg: She's got Afro.

[23:53] Jessica: I think that was pulled from Barbra Streisand in the main event of Course, remember that.

[23:59] Meg: That makes all the sense.

[24:00] Jessica: You'd have to be a true mental case to really ever have a problem with her. And, like, I can poke holes and try to, you know, grasp at straws to think, like, what. What would a real malcontent come up with? But the reality is, you know, there was. Well, you know, because those two assholes were. Were reviewing the Muppet. The Muppets Take Manhattan the way that they were. So I'm trying to think, like, what would make someone so angry at the Muppets? Like, what's that?

[24:37] Meg: I don't know. I feel like that's their problem.

[24:39] Jessica: Well, clearly it is, except that they put it. They put it out into the world, and then other people had to be exposed to their. Their pig hatred. Speaking of, by the way, my father was telling me that he went to dinner with your mom at Pig Heaven.

[24:53] Meg: Oh.

[24:53] Jessica: And it's really good. You know, it's been there since the 80s. Back to pigs in the 80s, right, Nancy? Something's Pig Heaven still there.

[25:04] Meg: Selene from Glee Club.

[25:07] Jessica: Petrovich.

[25:07] Meg: Yeah. Her parents owned Pig Heaven.

[25:10] Jessica: Stop it.

[25:11] Meg: No, it's true.

[25:12] Jessica: Still.

[25:13] Meg: I don't know. Still. I haven't checked in in decades, but.

[25:16] Jessica: Okay, well, that's a Facebook outreach to get right on. In the 80s, they. Oh, my God. Celine Demeto. That is amazing. I had no idea.

[25:26] Meg: I've never been really.

[25:28] Jessica: It's really good. But I had assumed that it had just sort of, like, fizzled into, you know, it's a relic, but whatever. No, they said it was quite good.

[25:39] Meg: So.

[25:39] Jessica: From Miss Piggy to Pig Heaven.

[25:40] Meg: It's so interesting. What made them choose that?

[25:43] Jessica: I don't know. I have no idea. It's so random. And my dad was like, oh. He said to me, I remember bringing you here when you were two feet tall. I was like, yeah. Pigs. Hey, Meg.

[26:10] Meg: Hi.

[26:11] Jessica: Who is your favorite band in the 80s?

[26:14] Meg: I looked at your notes. I didn't mean to.

[26:16] Jessica: Why did you do that? It was rotten there on the counter. Was it the same?

[26:21] Meg: All I can think of is that band.

[26:24] Jessica: All right, well, we're going to talk about Duran Duran, but we're not talking about Duran Duran. I feel like faked you out. That's not really what we're going to talk about.

[26:33] Meg: I like the Smiths.

[26:37] Jessica: You're like, I just remembered another band I did. Good for you. The Duran Duran is how I'm. I'm working my way into today's subject. But over the weekend, I watched the Duran Duran documentary.

[26:53] Meg: Ooh.

[26:53] Jessica: Is it good with our dear friend Ale? You know, hard to say, because when you're steeped in nostalgia to the point where you're just like, I don't watch anything about this thing I love and say that it's wonderful, there's a high likelihood of that with this. It wasn't a documentary that gave you, like, a big backstory and, like, all the bits of their lives now. It was very focused. It was, what were the big album like, how did they begin? And then what were their big albums in the 80s? What did they do in the 90s? And then there are two albums they talk about in the aughts. And then 2014. And basically they're like. They did 14 studio albums, which blew me away. I was like, what?

[27:40] Meg: That is surprising.

[27:41] Jessica: That's a lot. And you don't meet the girlfriends or the wives, you don't meet the children, nothing. It's exclusively the band. All right. So maybe because it wasn't exactly what I was expecting, I was like, huh, Is this a good documentary? But it was. It wasn't exhaustive, but it was good. And what was nice was that they had people who were instrumental, ha, ha. In different parts of their careers, interviewing them. So they had Mark Ronson interview them and Nile Rogers and the guy who did all of their colorful suits for the Rio tour and the guy who did the costumes prior to that. So the whole creation of the image and the sound, that's really all that it was focused on, which I realize is the case now that I'm actually telling you. Yeah, it's about the images. Okay. But it's quite good. And here's just having nothing to do with the topic at hand today. But here's some takeaways. Nick Rhodes, the most arch straight man in the history of ever still rocking his eyeshadow, and a smart man. Simon Le Bon, a smart man.

[28:53] Meg: That doesn't surprise me for some reason.

[28:55] Jessica: The drummer, sweet.

[28:57] Meg: Okay.

[28:58] Jessica: John Taylor, the hottest of them all, kind of dumb. He's a little D U M. And I don't know if he's just dumb or if he's kind of, like, impetuous. Maybe he has a little touch of the adhd. I don't know. He didn't come off as well as the other three did. And I was like, you know what? That's okay. You went through decades of being so beautiful. You didn't have to do anything. You just had to show up and play bass. And he did it very well.

[29:26] Meg: Excellent.

[29:27] Jessica: So it's like, you know, What? You didn't have to speak. Maybe that's not your strong suit. But it was a lot of fun. So I started doing a little bit of research about the Duran Duran and their arrival in the United States, which took me down a bit of a rabbit hole. And where it landed me was, you know, we've talked about a lot of different music venues. So this little Duran Duran excursion took me to the Ritz. Okay. I wound up doing a bunch of research about the Ritz, a place I never went.

[30:02] Meg: Me neither.

[30:03] Jessica: But you have now that you see.

[30:05] Meg: Yeah, because it's Webster Hall.

[30:06] Jessica: Exactly.

[30:07] Meg: Yeah.

[30:07] Jessica: So I'm going to talk a little bit about the Ritz and why, though. I've never thought about it this way. The Ritz might be one of the most important clubs in the United States, though it only lasted for 10 years. Would you like to come with me on a tour? Let's. Okay. So here's what I learned about the Durans. They debuted in the United. What year do you think they started in the US that they debuted at all? At all? Like, when did they start?

[30:35] Meg: 81.

[30:37] Jessica: Close. 80. Okay, so they were outplaying in 80. But their first album was indeed the self titled Album, 1981. But they came to the United States in September of 1981, and that was for their first US tour to support the album Duran Duran. That first appearance in the US was at the Ritz.

[31:01] Meg: Okay, well done.

[31:02] Jessica: Yes. So what was the Ritz? Webster hall was leased by the club owner promoter who did the Ritz and Webster hall, because, you know, I love things that have symmetry, was founded in 1886. So it's in the 80s for the wrong century. And it was created, it was built by a fella whose last name, I believe was Goldstein. The idea was to have a hall that would always be rented out. It was always for other people.

[31:36] Meg: Interesting.

[31:36] Jessica: A venue. A venue. And they had a lot because of the time period. And I was wondering, like, why were there so many, like, political groups meeting there and Emma Goldman and her Anarchists and all these people? And I was like, oh, yes, Industrial Revolution. That will bring that on, won't it? So it went from being a political and, you know, speechifying venue to in the 50s, interestingly, it was. And in the 20s and 30s, there were like big musical reviews. And it was created to have really good acoustics.

[32:13] Meg: Cool.

[32:14] Jessica: And by the 50s, in the very early 50s, it was where acts like Tito Puente and other Latin bands were performing. But in 1953, from 1953 to 1968. RCA Records leased Webster hall because the acoustics were so good that they recorded some of the most famous albums of all time, both from Broadway and new music of the time at Webster Hall.

[32:42] Meg: Interesting. Instead of in a recording studio, it

[32:45] Jessica: was their recording studio. Like the big hall, they made it into their live music. That's where they would record.

[32:51] Meg: Oh, for live music. Okay, that makes sense.

[32:54] Jessica: Here's a little bit from the New York Times about the arrival on the scene of Jerry Brandt's club, the Ritz. Okay, from Friday, August 8, 1980, John Rockwell wrote with the heading rock disco scene. But if hipness is your game, New York's growing rock disco scene should be your next stop. Your first stop. Excuse me. The snappy newcomer here is the Ritz, which is ensconced in a wonderful old Latin hall room with art deco overtones on 11th street between 3rd and 4th Avenues. And it even gives the number 2288888. Like other rock discos, the club offers recorded dance rock interspersed with most of the crowd stands and listens. The Ritz also has a grandiose video screen. Video is all the rage on the underground rock scene. The highlight of this week's live offerings comes Monday when Fats Domino, the legendary New Orleans rock and roller will appear for two shows with a 16 piece orchestra. In addition, Robin Lane and the Chart Busters, a well regarded folk rock band from Boston will be there tonight and tomorrow. And Dr. Buzzard's original Savannah ban will be on hand Wednesday. Random. Yeah, right.

[34:21] Meg: Yeah.

[34:21] Jessica: Well that turned around damn fast. Okay, so in the early, early first days, that's what they were booking. And I love the idea that Fats Domino was still under the rock heading for this, this crowd, it changed very quickly. And so 1980, just to go through a few dates, 1980, Jerry Brandt, he leased Webster hall to create a multi room nightclub and live music venue for emerging. This is the important bit, emerging rock acts. It was the space where by my estimation, video and music first really came together.

[35:02] Meg: Huh?

[35:03] Jessica: Why is that? Jerry Brandt was no dummy and he saw the writing on the wall. Now what was coming? Video. Right. What did he do? He erected the first ever in a nightclub, gigantic video screen that was 30ft by 30ft. Whoa. Yes. That would either project the act that was on the stage or the burgeoning new art form music videos. So right out of the box, the Ritz was something special. Here's a little something from the Villager from 1980.

[35:40] Meg: I love the Villager quote.

[35:43] Jessica: The biggest, most ostensibly legitimate club is the Ritz at 11th street and 4th Avenue. It's no lie calling the Ritz an old Puerto Rican dance hall. It comes complete with mirrored walls, Spanish English bathroom signs, marble stairs, and a monstrous, sparkly whatchamacallit hanging ominously from the 10 mile high ceiling. Yikes. All I can think about is the sword of Damocles at the Ritz. The bigger is better theory applies. A giant video screen plays Dream State. Film splices between acts. Hypnotic Susie and the banshees at 16 times real life. A night at the Ritz can be expensive and. Or overcrowded, depending on the act, the night of the week and the weather. If the Rolling Stones are really going to play in one of New York's downtown clubs, which they threatened a lot at the time, it'll be the Ritz, right? So that's 1980. 1981. Duran Duran shows up and they blow the roof off of the Ritz, and their era of screaming girls tearing them limb from limb, begins.

[36:51] Meg: They're very cute.

[36:52] Jessica: God, they were cute. Jesus. Like, they were ridiculous. And in the documentary, they talk about how the record labels had a very hard time believing that they wrote their own music because they were so cute.

[37:05] Meg: They were so beautiful.

[37:06] Jessica: Yeah. That they were like, but you should be dumb. Dumbs. And they're like, sorry, not so much. Interesting little tidbit. Simon Le Bon, choir boy, okay. And recorded his very first little record in his local 14th century church with his choir master. Could you die? Adorable. And you see it in the. In the documentary picture.

[37:32] Meg: Do they have a picture of him? Yeah. Being adorable.

[37:34] Jessica: Yes, they do. But who else was playing? Like, what does emerging acts mean? So Jerry Brandt was definitely like, anything goes. So one of the people who we've spoken about on this podcast is Klaus Noemi, king of the weirdos, who was pushing the boundaries of avant garde art and music to its absolute limits, certainly

[37:58] Meg: putting on a show.

[37:59] Jessica: And that very same year, a small band out of Ireland called U2 debuted at the Ritz for their first American show.

[38:09] Meg: Very different feel.

[38:10] Jessica: Very. And in 1981, not only was there Duran Duran, but there was Frank Zappa, Kraftwerk, the Misfits, the Dictators, and so many more.

[38:20] Meg: I like it's not stadium shows, but it's also not tiny club shows. I mean, it is a huge hall, but it's manageable.

[38:31] Jessica: Yes.

[38:32] Meg: And you don't. And you're close to the apps.

[38:35] Jessica: I've seen many gigs.

[38:37] Meg: I mean, it's actually kind of a fantastic size. And just the bands that you're naming I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Because they weren't like, wildly famous yet, but they could certainly fill that space rather than Niagara or whatever.

[38:53] Jessica: A hundred percent. And there's a lineup that I found that's actually like the real first 1981 lineup. Interestingly, it was a mix of English and Australian bands, of all things. Primarily, they were definitely Americans. But a preponderance of Australian bands, which I think is another rabbit hole to go down at some point, which is, why were the Australians coming out? Exactly.

[39:17] Meg: And people know people and. Yeah, word of mouth.

[39:20] Jessica: So in 1981, something else very big happened. MTV debuted. And MTV had their debut at the Ritz. Which is not surprising considering that they had a 30 by 30 screen. And MTV was about the mixture of music and video.

[39:38] Meg: Okay, question.

[39:39] Jessica: Sure.

[39:40] Meg: Cause you've done a story on mtv and you said that mtv. You taught me that MTV premiered in the Midwest first.

[39:49] Jessica: That was their test.

[39:50] Meg: Okay, so this is. The test went well. We're gonna do it. We're going all in. And we're gonna do it at the Ritz.

[39:57] Jessica: Correct.

[39:58] Meg: Got it.

[39:59] Jessica: And as we all know, Video Killed the Radio Star was their first song broadcast. And I just was really intrigued by the fact that, like, normally when a decade begins, the first year of that decade is still the decade that came before. It takes a while for things to get moving into whatever that decade is going to be. But Jerry Brant, he could see the writing on the wall. He understood what was going on. So he absolutely was like, no, this is what the 80s sound is gonna be, and this is what it's gonna look like. And MTV instantly became a part of that.

[40:39] Meg: Well, it's so interesting you say that. Cause I was kind of thinking that earlier too, when you asked me, when do you think Duran Duran debuted? And I was like. Like, there is no way I'm gonna say anything. Like 1979. I just. There's. They're just so 80s.

[40:54] Jessica: They're just so completely.

[40:57] Meg: Everything about what the 80s were and just not anything about what the 70s were.

[41:03] Jessica: Although, you know, they. They formed and were playing in the UK in the late 70s and. And looking like that, they were always Peacocks. They were known as the Peacocks of, I think, Birmingham. And they were very smart from day one about, we need to look good. Like, this is hair was so frosted. It was so frosted. Aggressively frosted. That video, Rio. Well, and they talked about having a really amazing director for their videos who was all into the travelogue. Got it. So. And he was like, let's do like, it has to have like a James Bond international feel. And they were by the way between 19 and 23. Take a look back, like think about it. Because I, I was like, man, they're so hot. And I stopped looking at them with 13 year old eyes. And then I was like, holy Jesus, these are boys. My God. Any who's that screen that Jerry Brandt put up cost $120,000, which at the time and other, you know, people have commented on this, it was like putting up a million dollar screen with no idea of whether or not people were going to care.

[42:19] Meg: Right. Imagine you put up a huge screen and then you can only project something that's like a television set.

[42:26] Jessica: Oops, oops. And so you have to have a

[42:28] Meg: lot of technology, you have to have faith in technology.

[42:31] Jessica: Yes, you have to progressing. And that's why I find this guy Jerry Brandt so fascinating is because he seemed to just unerringly know. Just as a quick aside about MTV and the Ritz, they apparently did not forget anything about their launch. And I believe it's in 1985. It's very hard to find. For some reason there isn't a lot that was instantly available without really, without basically calling our BFF Alex about what I'm about to talk about. But I believe in 1985 MTV launched a concert series that was seasonal that they broadcast called Live at the Ritz. MTV Live at the Ritz. There is another website called rockpeaks.com what they say simply is MTV aired a series of concerts called Live at the Ritz on Saturday nights in the 80s. Performers included guns N Roses, Jean Loves Jezebel, the Saints, the Cult, Nick Kershaw, the Smithereens, Julian Cope, Great White Hoodoo Gurus, White Lion, Iggy Pop, Eurogliders and Simon Townshend, much younger brother of Pete Townsend. All Australian and British for the most part. Depeche Mode made their American debut at the Ritz in 1982.

[43:42] Meg: I love Depeche Mode.

[43:43] Jessica: Run DMC did an early MTV appearance at the Ritz in 1984. Sting made his solo debut there. Wang Chung made their debut there. And I think that we should put up the link because this is just a good website with lots of fun stuff. But the I'm sorry, the MTV series is most known because of the 1988 Guns N Roses Live at the Ritz concert. That was the concert where they. If you wanna know what Guns N Roses like, their debauchery, their insanity, their energy, like why people were so nuts about them and like if you look at Axl Rose now, it's.

[44:25] Meg: I know what happened.

[44:26] Jessica: He looks. He does surgery. I don't. I wouldn't even hazard a guess.

[44:32] Meg: But my God, he was so sexy.

[44:33] Jessica: He was so like dirt. Like a dirty, sexy, scary. He was. He was legit scared. Like, you should be scared of him.

[44:42] Meg: Like, he broke bottles and shit.

[44:43] Jessica: Yeah, well, he. Well, yes, he was a very destructive fella. The dance, the snaky dancing. It was at that concert that he did a stage dive and came back without a shirt.

[44:56] Meg: Okay.

[44:57] Jessica: While Slash just kept maniacally playing a solo. While Axel, you know, whacked out on all the drugs, was like, I'm gonna go stage diving and never come back. Ever. Come and get me, fuckers. So what I really loved was I found out a little bit because we know that at clubs, who really sets the tone? It's the dj. And the DJ at the Ritz was Justin Strauss. And Justin Strauss, again, like, how New York is this? Jerry Brandt was like, how do we get an underground vibe? How do we get breaking stuff? So he plucked Justin Strauss out of the Mud Club.

[45:41] Meg: Okay?

[45:41] Jessica: So can you imagine? He went from a club that held basically as many people as your living room to the Ritz to Webster Hall. He was, you know, he's all about small and experimental music and just gave him access to anything that he wanted. What was interesting, though, is that he started out. His real start was with going to Paradise Garage. So he was super into all kinds of music and dance music and disco. Anything went as long as it got people moving. And it was interesting and different and new or not new, but set the stage for other music that he cared about. He later went on to being at Area and Limelight. So he was a super important dude. But what really cracked me up was that people at the time, like people now. You know, we've talked about this before with streaming. It's like a poo poo platter. You can just like, I'm gonna choose this, I'm gonna choose that, whatever. And people. People are in camp, were in camps so violently. Like, I'm goth and I'm goth, and there's nothing else I'm going to listen to. And if you. If you play it near me, I'm never gonna stop throwing up. So Justin Strauss pissed a few people off who were really into the Ritz as a rock and roll venue. And this is one of my all time favorite letters ever written by someone named Ronnie. Okay, so Ronnie was not having it. He wrote on in July, July 26, 1981. To whom it may Consign. I've been coming to the Ritz for the last couple of years. Yeah, it just opened, Dum Dum. The last couple of years. And it was all right until now because you play disco music, capitalized DM disco music. And certain people, like me and lots of my peers, hate and and totally dislike disco music. There are so many various disco type rock songs that you people should be hip to, such as the Moody Blues, Gemini Dream, the Clash Sticks, Styx is soft rock, dude.

[47:54] Meg: Yeah.

[47:55] Jessica: The Stones, the Four Tops, Temptations, James Brown, et cetera. It's danceable music. Also, without having to probe into that stupid disco music. I thought you were supposed to be a capitalized, underlined rock club, not a disco. Well, you are not. And furthermore, you shouldn't even announce yourselves on WNEW 102.7. Why don't you announce yourselves on WKTU with that, Paco? That's where you belong, with the disco crowd. If I want to hear disco music, I would go to a disco, not to a rock club. No wonder the Ritz is going down the drain, brain, because now you're attracting that bullshit disco crowd who are rowdy and disorganized. Ronnie, as my opinion, I would never play disco music at the Ritz because I think it's very underlined. Hypocritical. Hypocritical. All of my friends are smart for never returning to the Ritz because we all thought you played capital rock music. If disco was so hot, then why did the queen, Donna Summers, leave the scene? If one could really dance, one could dance to anything, even rock music. Or are we capital brainwashed?

[49:20] Meg: Oh, my God. Is Ronnie feeling all right?

[49:22] Jessica: That stupid nonsense disco, low class, low grade music. I thought the Ritz had some class. What happened to the rock and roll we used to know? Like Led Zeppelin, the Doors, Jimi Hendrix, Hendrix, Janis Joplin, the Stones again, et cetera? I like the Ritz better last year because you never, never played that disco hyphen shit. Well, I guess I'll have to find another real rock club to go to, because if I was looking for a disco, I'd certainly stay at the Ritz. Okay, thanking you and yours for your past cooperation, Ronnie.

[50:05] Meg: My goodness. Okay, Rani, how old do you think Rani is? And where do you.

[50:11] Jessica: 21, max.

[50:13] Meg: And where do you think he lives?

[50:16] Jessica: Well, disco is still very hot in Brooklyn and Staten Island.

[50:20] Meg: So you're not gonna.

[50:21] Jessica: I'm thinking.

[50:21] Meg: You don't think he's a commuter?

[50:23] Jessica: I'm Thinking he's a bridge and tunnel y kind of fellow.

[50:26] Meg: And it sounds like it.

[50:27] Jessica: He sounds a little. A lot of fuck your things that you do. God damn it.

[50:33] Meg: Masculine bravado.

[50:35] Jessica: Well, he got his, didn't he? When in 1981, Public Image Limited, fronted by former Sex Pistols frontman Johnny Rotten John Lydon, decided to do his show at the Ritz. Ronnie should have gotten a ticket to that show because he would have gotten everything he was looking for and then some.

[51:01] Meg: Also dancing to Led Zeppelin.

[51:03] Jessica: Who dances to Led Zeppelin? I mean, if you're super high and you're just, like, jerking around the floor, I don't know.

[51:09] Meg: Unpleasant.

[51:10] Jessica: But in May 1981, Public Image Ltd. Did a concert there. They, in typical John Lydon style, decided to piss off the audience. So they played behind a screen that then had the giant video screen in back of that so you couldn't really see them.

[51:31] Meg: Okay.

[51:31] Jessica: Additionally, while they were playing through the normal sound system, they played other music of theirs through the PA simultaneously. Why?

[51:42] Meg: Why, Alex, tell us, is it some.

[51:45] Jessica: They played their music to piss people off. And I'll tell you why. I'll tell not why. I mean, we know that. That that was his shtick. When the audience realized that the pegging audience realized what they were being handed, they started pelting the stage with bottles and cans and tried to and semi successfully ripped down the scrim that the band was hiding behind.

[52:13] Meg: Okay? Not the one.

[52:15] Jessica: Not the million dollar screen. There were fights in the audience, and the audience tried to fight Public Image Limited. The band taunted the audience that had paid so much to see them with quote, did you get your money's worth?

[52:32] Meg: Ugh, it's so unpleasant.

[52:34] Jessica: It was. Well, Rani was wrong. The Ritz was not over. And it stayed in its space until 1989, when it then moved to the space that had been inhabited by Studio 50.

[52:48] Meg: The Ritz moved to Studio 54.

[52:50] Jessica: It did. It did.

[52:52] Meg: And then what happened? Do we know?

[52:53] Jessica: Oh, that's a story for another day.

[52:55] Meg: Okay.

[52:57] Jessica: But that. That is the coming together of video music, mtv, cutting edge bands, and Ronnie. And Ronnie.

[53:21] Meg: What is our tie in, Jessica?

[53:23] Jessica: Well, I want to honor your concept of Miss Piggy's carefully coiffed hair being akin to the carefully coiffed, gelled, moussed, spiked, frosted, mulleted do's of Duran Duran. I actually think that the tie in is cutting edge thinking and that Miss Piggy was on the forefront of, in the early 80s, self acceptance and power for little kids, girls and boys. I'm sure. And the Ritz and you know, the Jerry Brandt. They were about being on the cutting edge and bringing new thinking and new ideas and new sound to the kids. Some kids liked it. Rani didn't.

[54:12] Meg: Yeah, well, I am super grateful for both of those things.

[54:15] Jessica: Woo hoo.

[54:16] Meg: Yay. And now we just have to figure out where we're gonna have our dinner on Sunday.

[54:21] Jessica: We've been so podcast centric, it'll be really delightful just to have like a mildly raucous and delicious.

[54:31] Meg: Yeah. Thinking good food.

[54:34] Jessica: Yee.

[54:35] Meg: All right. Good food on Cinco de Mayo. Except not with the Cinco de Mayo people.

[54:40] Jessica: No, I. As much as I want to honor their revelry, I can't be near others. No.

[54:46] Meg: No. So this is going to take a lot of thought. Unfortunately, this is going to. This podcast is going to come out after our dinner so no one can give us suggestions, but we'll keep you posted.

[54:57] Jessica: Maybe, maybe we will have a restaurant suggestion coming out of our celebratory dinner.

[55:02] Meg: Exactly. And we'll take a picture that night. Let's remember.

[55:05] Jessica: Remember, I swear to you, I want to dress like Miss Piggy. Just so you know. Wigs. Wigs all around.