[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City. We. Where we still live and where we

[00:28] Meg: podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:32] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: This is our 99th episode.

[00:38] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[00:39] Meg: And guess what the next episode is going to be a hundred. Yeah. And guess where we're gonna do it?

[00:45] Jessica: We're gonna have a party.

[00:47] Meg: We're having a party on Thursday, April 4, from 6 to 9, at Bailey's Corner Pub at 1607 York Avenue. First of all, just want to say hi. And it'll.

[01:01] Jessica: Yes. Number one, if you are hearing this, you are invited. Please come.

[01:06] Meg: Is it 85th in York?

[01:08] Jessica: 85th in York.

[01:10] Meg: And if you've got a great story, we'll be there to record it because that might be fun to record a few stories from people.

[01:17] Jessica: Yeah. We have so many people who write in and as you. I love when you come into my apartment. Like, we had good engagement this week, and everyone has a little story to tell, has a little nugget from their past they'd like to share. So this would be an opportune moment to actually be on the podcast we'll be recording at Bailey. So bring yourself. Bring your story. Just.

[01:39] Meg: Yeah. And hang out and meet people, and it'll be great.

[01:42] Jessica: Yes, it'll be great.

[01:42] Meg: See all the BFFs together.

[01:44] Jessica: Yeah. The next level of our community coming together.

[01:58] Meg: Speaking of engagement, my story was suggested by my cousin Trish.

[02:07] Jessica: Oh, yay. Hi, Trish.

[02:09] Meg: Yeah, I'm just gonna dive in and you're gonna be there with me.

[02:13] Jessica: Okay.

[02:14] Meg: You don't need. You don't need.

[02:15] Jessica: There's no engagement question.

[02:17] Meg: No. No.

[02:17] Jessica: Okay.

[02:18] Meg: My sources are Class Action park, which is a documentary, Weird New Jersey, which is a very interesting resource. And Wikipedia. In 1983, Eugene Mulvihill, owner of Action park in Vernon, New Jersey, drew a loop that resembled a crazy straw on a napkin and told his people to make it happen. The result was an enclosed water slide with a complete vertical loop at the end, similar to a roller coaster, and was named the Cannonball Loop.

[02:57] Jessica: Wait, so let me get this straight.

[02:58] Meg: Yes.

[02:59] Jessica: You're in this enclosed, like you're in a habit trail.

[03:02] Meg: You're in a tube.

[03:03] Jessica: You're in a habit trail tube.

[03:04] Meg: Yes.

[03:05] Jessica: And you do a, a, a vertical drop into a loop de loop. While I would imagine you're still. You're in the either totally prone on your back or. Yeah, prone on your back and then shot out like a cannon.

[03:20] Meg: There. You got it.

[03:22] Jessica: I'm just letting you know that that's nightmare fodder for me. Well, yeah, and for someone who obviously had to sue some. Eugene.

[03:30] Meg: Preservation. Okay. At first, they tested the new ride by sending down crash test dummies. The dummies came out the other side dismembered and decapitated. After some adjustments, Gene offered $100 to any employee who would test it.

[03:51] Jessica: That is a low fee, Eugene. I think. But people bit.

[03:56] Meg: Apparently, yes. I mean, the employees were like 16 years old.

[04:02] Jessica: Oh, yes.

[04:03] Meg: One kid named Fergus took the offer and said 100 bucks did not buy enough booze to drown out that memory.

[04:14] Jessica: The kids.

[04:16] Meg: The kids kept coming out of the slide. So the kids are being cannonballed out, right? The kids kept coming out of the slide with all kinds of lacerations and they couldn't figure out why. When they opened up the loop. So there's a loop right at the top of the loop. They opened up the loop. Brace yourself.

[04:36] Jessica: I'm so excited.

[04:38] Meg: They found that teeth of previous riders that had been knocked out had lodged in the interior walls and were tearing up the skin of the kids, zooming through the tube.

[04:54] Jessica: Wait, wait.

[04:58] Meg: This is just the beginning.

[04:59] Jessica: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So were those Fergus's teeth? Because he was the first person that wasn't a crash test dummy to go through.

[05:07] Meg: I don't know if it was Fergus, but there were a bunch of kids who were. They were the test pilots. And after a while, they're like, why do I have scratches?

[05:17] Jessica: So the ride was biting them. It was trying to eat them alive

[05:21] Meg: with the teeth of the previous rider.

[05:23] Jessica: It's so fucked up.

[05:24] Meg: It's really.

[05:24] Jessica: That is actually like. That's a horror movie that someone needs to watch, pretty much.

[05:28] Meg: The slide was open for one month in 1985 and was quickly closed because of bloody noses and back injuries. A Navy physician found that riders were experiencing as much as nine GS of acceleration as they went through the loop. I looked up what that means. According to Top Gun, the movie, that's the upper limit of what the human body can experience.

[06:02] Jessica: No, wait there. Wait, wait, wait. So your sources are Top Gun Maverick? Okay, I believe it. Look, if Tom Cruise said it, I'm Iceman said it. Go ahead. I'm in. Love it.

[06:18] Meg: Lots of amusement parks. Talk big. The scariest, most thrilling death defying ride ever. Do you dare in those places? Really? The test is your will, right? You're not going to die. And you know that you're not going to die. You just have to convince your body that you won't die to force yourself to do it.

[06:38] Jessica: I still don't understand how this is recreation. But look, to each his own.

[06:43] Meg: The point is, Action park was different.

[06:47] Jessica: They were putting their tooth filled slide where their mouth was.

[06:52] Meg: Eugene Mulvihil started his career trading penny stocks on Wall Street. This is why it's so, so 80s, right?

[07:02] Jessica: Scruples not high on the list.

[07:05] Meg: He believed in zero regulation and survival of the fittest and mayhem in general. That was just his aesthetic. When he opened action park in 1976, he, quote, didn't want to do the same old where you just get strapped into something or it twirls around. He wanted to take the idea of skiing, which is exhilarating because you control the action and transfer it to an amusement park. There's inherent risk in that, but that's what makes it fun. Okay, so that's a quote from one of his sons. I should probably point out that. Okay, so here we are in New Jersey and in the wintertime these hills and this area in Vernon, New Jersey was used for skiing. But when the snow melted, then here we are. What do we do? We make the Cannonball slide. Right. Okay. These are some of the other attractions from Action Park. The Aqua Scoot, where kids would ride a hard plastic sled down a water slide that was designed to skip you like a stone. It was designed to do that. The result?

[08:19] Jessica: How many back injuries, Head injuries, unexpected

[08:23] Meg: enemas,

[08:26] Jessica: you know, the weight of my

[08:27] Meg: heart and the likelihood of being smashed into by the guy behind you.

[08:32] Jessica: Wait, can we just. Can we just go back to the phrase unexpected enema? That is actually, it was called Aqua

[08:40] Meg: Scoot and it again, it's delivered.

[08:43] Jessica: Yes, it lived up to the name.

[08:45] Meg: This is another ride. The Tarzan swing was a steel rod hanging from a 20 foot long cable over a pool of fish. Freezing spring water. The idea was to swing out and let go just in time to fly into the pool. Unfortunately.

[09:05] Jessica: What if you timed it wrong?

[09:08] Meg: Some kids hung on too long and scraped their toes on the concrete at the shallow far side. Others forgot how to swim because the water was so damn cold. All the kids waiting in line would taunt the swingers. Especially the ones who look scared. The operative word was pussy. Everyone could be a pussy, but really, according to the local kids, the biggest pussies were the ones who came in from New York.

[09:42] Jessica: Yes, pussy strong, pussy proud. Yes. Those of us who hate gym class. And yet we're going to Eugene's nightmare city.

[09:53] Meg: Life had not prepared New York youth for this level of New Jersey recreation. Girls would lose their bikini tops when they hit the water. That was exciting for everyone. So, as I mentioned before, my cousin Trish wrote me about her experience on the speed slides.

[10:16] Jessica: Oh, Trish, I'm sorry already.

[10:18] Meg: So this is all from Trish. Quote My friend's dad took us to Action park sometime around 1993 when I was about nine years old. I certainly didn't know anything about the park's reputation at the time. I think my friend's dad had probably heard a few stories and wanted to see it for himself on a weekend he had custody.

[10:40] Jessica: I remember that is the most.

[10:42] Meg: It's true. That is everything.

[10:44] Jessica: So

[10:46] Meg: Chef's Kiss I remember a handful of vignettes from the day, but the most vivid memory is of the speed slide, which was the last thing I did before heading home before I blacked

[10:59] Jessica: out and then found myself in the er.

[11:03] Meg: The speed slides were tall straight water slides with a very steep drop off at the top and a long landing strip once they leveled out at the ground. The only way to ride it was lying down flat with your arms at your side or or crossed over the chest. The speed slides came in pairs, allowing two people to race. The taller of the two pairs was absolutely insane. I recall the drop off seeming almost vertical at the very top. Those slides were enclosed. To me it seemed obvious the covering was to prevent people from losing contact with the slide entirely and entering a freefall. I was nine and opted for one of the two smaller speed slides, which were shorter but still steep enough to give you flutters in the stomach. Estimating from photos today, by the way, Trish has sent me. She's done her own research and she sent me pictures from those speed slides. They couldn't have been less than four to five stories tall.

[12:07] Jessica: That's so sick.

[12:10] Meg: The problem was that there simply wasn't enough water flowing down the slide. Rather than gliding down down wet and friction free, half of my back was in contact with hot dry plastic that had been baking in the summer sun. By the time I got to the bottom, the right side of my back had a vertical strip where skin exposed by my bathing suit had been rubbed off like a rug burn. There wasn't an attendant at the bottom. I certainly wasn't climbing back all those stairs to complain. So we just grabbed our stuff and proceeded to the parking lot and drove home.

[12:48] Jessica: Baby Trish, Now I just want to Do a quick callback to the episode. I'm sorry, I don't know what number it is, where I described my complete antipathy towards all amusement parks. Action parks, attractions. And that anyone who wants to do that, with all due respect, and I know this includes you, my darling.

[13:11] Meg: Yeah, I love it.

[13:12] Jessica: Mental case.

[13:13] Meg: But this is different.

[13:14] Jessica: Yes, but. But you never know when you're gonna finally find yourself at an Action park esque place. You're putting yourself in the line of date. Now, if you're nine, that's a different story, but. Poor little Rubburn. Trish, baby.

[13:33] Meg: Now it's gonna take a bit of a turn.

[13:35] Jessica: I'm assuming the litigation begins now.

[13:38] Meg: The tidal wave pool was nicknamed the Grave pool. It was 100ft wide by 250ft long and could hold 500 to a thousand people. Waves were generated for 20 minutes at a time with 10 minute breaks and could reach as much as 40 inches in height. The water was murky with suntan lotion

[14:04] Jessica: and pee and poop and God knows what else. Vomit.

[14:09] Meg: Exactly. And it was hard to tell how deep it was or if there was a body underwater. And lots of city kids didn't know how to swim very well. And chlorinated water is less buoyant. I don't know if you knew that.

[14:23] Jessica: I did not know that.

[14:24] Meg: 12 lifeguards were on duty at all times and on high traffic weekends, they would rescue as many as 30 people. As a point of reference, lifeguards at a typical pool or Lake average one or two rescues a season.

[14:39] Jessica: And they were doing 30 a day

[14:42] Meg: a weekend, high traffic weekends, 30 a weekend per weekend. As one Action park lifeguard said, quote, it was legitimately scary. Speaking of lifeguards, most employees at Action park were about 16 years old and they were the ones in charge. There were kids working there as young as 14. Training sessions were more like an opportunity for hazing. Most were drinking all day long. Height and weight restrictions were a joke. It was a teenage free for all. Fights would break out, especially when rafts collided on the Colorado river ride or at the Gladiator Challenge, which pitted teenagers against each other in obstacle races and a jousting match.

[15:29] Jessica: Are you kidding me right now?

[15:31] Meg: No. Now, how could Action park get away with all this chaos, you might add?

[15:36] Jessica: Well, I'm just wondering why it took so long for someone to either, like, I don't know if someone died and that's the lawsuit. But I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not going to be shocked if you're like not only did they die, but they were ripped limb from limb and all they found was an ear.

[15:53] Meg: At first, Eugene refused to get insurance.

[15:59] Jessica: Eugene is not a well person.

[16:03] Meg: When New Jersey State insisted that he get insurance, he created a fake insurance company in the Cayman Islands and insured himself when he was sued.

[16:13] Jessica: I don't even know how to comment on that.

[16:17] Meg: When he was sued and he was sued, often he just refused to settle. Ever. He had enough money and resources and connections to keep the lawsuits going and going on appeals. And since everyone knew he would never pay out, they often just gave up. It also helped that he gave gifts and memberships to influential people. Many in Vernon, New Jersey were annoyed and a little terrified of Action Park. But there were also many who loved all the business it attracted. And Action park simply didn't report injuries unless an ambulance was involved. Now so many ambulances were involved that the local hospital complained they didn't have enough ambulances. So Action park bought their own. Now, did anyone die? Oh yes. Oh yes they did. July 8, 1980, 19 year old George Larson was thrown from his car on the Alpine slide and hit his head on a rock. He died a week later. Action park lied and claimed he was an employee goofing off after hours. He was not and that the rock killed him, not the ride.

[17:37] Jessica: Oh my God. Are you kidding me? No, I didn't kill you. This bullet did. Oh my God.

[17:44] Meg: On July 24, 1982, 15 year old George Lopez drowned in the tidal wave pool. On August 1, 1982, 27 year old Jeffrey Nathan fell out of his kayak. On the kayak experience, he stepped on a grape that was in contact with an exposed live wiring for the underwater fans that created the rapids.

[18:09] Jessica: Oh my God.

[18:10] Meg: He suffered a severe electric shock and died of cardiac arrest. In 1984, a man had a heart attack caused by the shock of the cold water at the Tarzan swing. Two more kids drowned in the tidal wave pool in 1984. And in 1987. The crazy thing about Action park was that all the urban legends were true and those only scratched the surface. But for those who survived, it holds fond memories of a Gen X youth that will never be replicated. According to writer Matthew Kaelin, quote, Action park made adults of a generation of Tri State area kids who strolled through its blood stained gates. By teaching us the truth about life. It is not safe. You will get hurt a lot and you'll ride all the way home burnt beyond belief. And for comedian Chris Gether, who also survived him, I love him too. Quote Action park was a true rite of passage for any New Jerseyan of my generation. When I get to talking about it with other Jerseyans, we share stories as if we are veterans who served in combat together. I suspect that many of us may have come closest to death on some of those rides up in Vernon Valley. I consider it a true shame that future generations will never know the terror of proving their grit at New Jersey's most dangerous amusement park. It closed for good in 1996. And this is so foreign to you. You're just like, I, I. You're like, I cannot compute.

[19:56] Jessica: You know why I can't compute. As you know, as I've said many times, number one, not for me, but when there's so many moments along the way for a sane parent, forget even the teenagers. There might be a sane teenager in the bunch, but this tidal wave pool is so thick with shit, you can't see if there's a body beneath you. Yeah, let's do that. Like the, the. This is not lurking peril. This is obvious upfront, being sold as the attraction actual possible death. Yeah, who says I want that?

[20:44] Meg: Like I was saying, I tried to explain it to you as I was saying earlier. Okay, the. So you understand the difference between an amusement park and a water park, right?

[20:55] Jessica: Yes, well, clearly, yes. So the water.

[20:59] Meg: But it's more than that. You're usually not in like a roller coaster. It's your own body sliding down the thing. That. That's a big distinction.

[21:09] Jessica: Yes, I understand. You are, you are the catapult. You are being catapulted. It's your body. You're not encased in something. You're in the element.

[21:18] Meg: Right. Okay. So I do, I mean, you know, I love amusement parks. I also really love water parks where you slide down the slide. Oh, I'll tell you a funny story. So we went to.

[21:30] Jessica: You're like a water park. Water park. And lived. Yay.

[21:34] Meg: We went to a water park when the kids were little and we were in Georgia St. Simons and we drove there with my mother in the car and, oh, actually I think we were on Jekyll island. And we got out of the car and we got our tickets and we walked. And my mother literally turned right around and walked right out. I was like, what are you gonna do? We, we all came in the same car. We're gonna be here for hours. And she was like, I'm walking home. I was like, walking home? It's like a three hour walk home. What do you mean you're walking? She friggin.

[22:08] Jessica: Walked home, she wasn't spending 15 minutes in that place.

[22:15] Meg: She's like, I'm not going in that wave pool.

[22:18] Jessica: Yes.

[22:20] Meg: Everything about it just made her go like, I know. I don't think so.

[22:25] Jessica: No. I mean, I would have handled it a little differently. I would have been like, I'm going to find the corn dog cart and get myself a snack and an RC Cola because it's the south, and sit someplace, maybe have a bag of salted peanuts. That's it.

[22:45] Meg: But we did. We stayed there for hours. And you know what? It was safe. I mean, some things are super duper.

[22:51] Jessica: My point is not even about the water park. I mean, very specifically, Action Park. It doesn't have the legend that it does now. Only now people went because it was severely insane and fucked up and deadly.

[23:08] Meg: Yeah, that was part of the attraction.

[23:10] Jessica: Exactly. So I'm not.

[23:11] Meg: Chris Gethert also tells stories about how, like, there are many parents to your point who are like, you are not allowed to go to Action Park. Like, that is completely against the rules. And then, of course, the kids would sneak off with their friends whose parents weren't really paying as close attention. And it was a lot less expensive than Six Flags Great Adventure.

[23:33] Jessica: Well, there's no insurance being paid for, so I'm sure it was cheaper.

[23:38] Meg: So it also attracted a lot of kids who couldn't afford to go to the safer parks.

[23:45] Jessica: This is like something out of the Simpsons, you know, like, Dr. Nick is like, I'm going to make a park. It's going to have razor blades at the bottom of every ride.

[23:55] Meg: Have you seen or heard of Jackass?

[23:58] Jessica: Of course.

[24:00] Meg: Okay.

[24:00] Jessica: Those guys, they're clearly born of action.

[24:04] Meg: Yes. And lots of guys are like that. Apparently.

[24:09] Jessica: That's a thing. Yes, it's true. There is a bit of a gender difference.

[24:15] Meg: I mean, I think some girls, too, whatever, but Jackass in particular, those guys like to set themselves on fire to see if they can survive, I mean, and jump off the top of buildings. I mean, there's a demographic who are wired that way.

[24:29] Jessica: Yes, I completely.

[24:30] Meg: And think it's fucking hysterical. They love every second of it. Yeah, I. I would not put myself in that camp.

[24:38] Jessica: I. Yeah, I mean, when Jackass was really. I guess it was in the 90s. I remember watching it and being like, I want to find it funny, but these are not my people. I was like, where's the wit? And Johnny Knoxville, by the way, talks about it now and is like, I broke every bone in my body. It hurts now a lot now that I'm older. He was like. It was like Evel Knievel. Your body cannot sustained.

[25:10] Meg: But like in his backyard.

[25:12] Jessica: Yeah, yeah. With like a folding table. Like those people who would put lube on a slip and slide and be like, I'm going for it. Like, teenager. I know, I know. I just. And I don't want to sound like a fuddy duddy, but I'm very attached to living, very interested in staying alive.

[25:31] Meg: I like the thrill, but also I like to trust the establishment.

[25:37] Jessica: So even now, you would get in an. Like a water slide.

[25:40] Meg: Of course, I don't know.

[25:41] Jessica: But I know that tonight I'm going to have nightmares about drowning in a shit pool with a thousand other. Excuse me, 999 other people.

[25:51] Meg: Apparently. This is another thing because, again, city kids don't swim very well as a group, right? So when the huge waves started coming, they went, fuck, I'm in trouble. So they would all go to the sides to grab on. But then there was like, you know, a crowd. So some kids got pushed under because everyone was trying to go to the side.

[26:18] Jessica: Did you ever watch Caddyshack?

[26:20] Meg: No. You know, that's not my humor.

[26:21] Jessica: I'm going to send you a clip. There's a scene where they're all in the pool at the country club and someone unwraps a candy bar, a baby rib. Yes. And. And to this day, yes, my father and I still laugh because the one person has not even a full line, one word, and everyone runs duty. And they all freak out. Run. And then, of course, Bill Murray cleans the pool, picks it up, eats it. Oh, God. You know, and several people faint dead away. But just the one. So think about that. Just the one.

[27:18] Meg: So how much do you love Action park being like a rite of passage for New Yorkers, for these New York kids going out to New Jersey?

[27:27] Jessica: I think it's more a rite of passage for their parents who get their children back from Action park in, like, a Ziploc bag with a tooth, a single strand of hair, a toenail, and a shred of a bathing suit. And they're like, here's your pureed kid. Enjoy. Try to reconstitute. Maybe. Maybe she can still get into Brearley. Do they take pureed children at Brearley? That's. That's. That's. That's what I think of the. The New York kids going to Action Park. So all the kids who go to Vernon Public High School, whatever, in, like, laughing hysterically like, we're not pureed. We still have legs. We can walk around. Unlike these New York pussies. Pussy in a bag. That's what you are now. You're just a pussy in a Ziploc. There was no Ziploc at the time. It's just. Or there was Ziploc. There wasn't with the, like, the zipper. It was just, like, the press and seal. So there's even leakage. Or maybe in a Tupperware. Maybe that would have been more accurate. Anyway, that's what I think. And that's actually what I fear for myself. I see myself as the Ziploc bag kid. I know that's where I'm going. That's like. That is. That is the end of my story when I go to those places. So do I like your story? I take it as a cautionary tale. Can I talk about something?

[29:01] Meg: What do you have for me that

[29:02] Jessica: might also involve being pureed?

[29:04] Meg: Oh, okay.

[29:05] Jessica: Now, this was not a segue I expected to make. And yet here it is. Okay, so you know how we talked on an earlier episode, which we will have to identify. Look, I can't. I don't know what I say half the time, Meg. You know, I don't know where I said it and if I said it, but at one point, we were talking about how New Yorkers are not mean. New Yorkers are great.

[29:29] Meg: Yes.

[29:29] Jessica: Well, that's not always true.

[29:31] Meg: Oh. Oh, no.

[29:33] Jessica: And what I'm gonna talk about today, because I think, you know how I've been on a diet. I think I'm hungry. So I have more food stories to talk about. And I have a tale of two cranks.

[29:48] Meg: Okay?

[29:49] Jessica: I have two very cranky, cranky purveyors of food in New York City who are both legends. The Puree connection. Now, we're going to talk about a gentleman named Ali Yaganeh, also known as Al. Okay? Also known as the Soup Man.

[30:09] Meg: Soup Nazi.

[30:11] Jessica: Now, we don't say that on this show because Al would not like it.

[30:14] Meg: Sorry, I didn't.

[30:15] Jessica: And Al is still among us. Al walks amongst us.

[30:18] Meg: And we know we don't want to

[30:20] Jessica: make him angry, and we don't want to make him angry at all.

[30:23] Meg: Now, I'm on Al's side.

[30:25] Jessica: You have to be.

[30:26] Meg: I love soup.

[30:28] Jessica: Well, so does Al. And we're going to talk about how in 1984, Al opened his restaurant, not an Eat In Restaurant, a purveyor of soup. It was located at 259A W. 55th St. And it was immediately known amongst people in the neighborhood. And that neighborhood we've talked about it recently on your man with the Van, our last episode.

[30:55] Meg: Sorry. West 54th.

[30:58] Jessica: 55th.

[30:59] Meg: West 55th. And pretty far West.

[31:01] Jessica: Yes. Right near. Right near the CBS murders.

[31:05] Meg: Okay.

[31:05] Jessica: Okay.

[31:06] Meg: Yeah.

[31:06] Jessica: So those guys could have had a cup of soup before all the shit went down.

[31:10] Meg: I didn't. I had no idea it was on the west side.

[31:13] Jessica: Yes, People loved it. They loved it because everything that he did as a cook was right. And we're gonna talk about that in a second. And in New York, if you find the thing that's amazing and is consistently amazing, you're gonna go back and you know, there are characters everywhere. What are you gonna do in New York? Not do something because someone is a character. No, no.

[31:40] Meg: And you follow his rules because when in Rome, do what the suit guy tells you.

[31:45] Jessica: You would think, but we aren't even there yet. All right, there we are on West 55th street, which. Where TV shows are filmed. That's right. In the 80s and then the 90s. Seinfeld. Jerry Seinfeld was familiar with the area. In 1995, November 2nd, that is when Jerry Seinfeld decided, or he and Larry David, they aired the episode in which they used the material that they had in front of them, as most people who write do, they decided to talk about Al and his soup. Al was not happy about this. After the episode aired, and Al had been in business for about a decade at that point with a devoted clientele, Jerry Seinfeld finally walked in to Al's soup porium. Yeah. Writer Spike Ferriston, friend of Seinfeld, had the following to say about the encounter. Jerry Seinfeld and several members of the production team went to Soup Kitchen International for lunch weeks after the Soup Nazi aired. Despite Fereston warning Seinfeld that yeganeh, however you pronounce his name. Sorry. Al was now well aware of the episode and was not pleased with the attention it had brought him. Upon recognizing Seinfeld, Al did a triple take and then went into a profanity filled rant about how the show had ruined his business, demanded an apology. Seinfeld allegedly gave what Ferestean describes as the most sarcastic apology I've ever seen anyone give. Upon which Al ejected them from the restaurant, shouting, no soup for you in the process. Now, we all know that's the end of the story, but how did al begin? In 1989, the New Yorker featured an article about a restaurant that was starting to get attention. And it was getting attention because of the excellence of the food and the irascible nature of the owner. Working like a demon alchemist in a tiny storefront kitchen at 259A W. 55th St, Mr. Yegane creates anywhere from eight to 17 soups every weekday. His concoctions are so popular that a wait of half an hour at the lunchtime peak is not uncommon, although there are strict rules for conduct in line quote. I'm psychologically kind of a health freak, said Mr. Yagane the other day. And I know that soup is the greatest meal in the world. It's very good for your digestive system. And I used only the best, the freshest ingredients. I'm a perfectionist. When I make a clam soup, I use three different kinds of clams. Every other place uses canned clams. I'm called crazy. I'm not crazy. People don't realize why I get so upset. It's because if the soup isn't perfect, I'm still selling it. It's torture. It's my soup, and that's why I'm so upset. First you clean, then you cook. I don't believe that 99% of the restaurants in New York know how to clean a tomato. I tell my crew to wash the parsley eight times. If they wash it five or six times, I scare them. I tell them they'll go to jail if there's sand in the parsley. One time I found a mushroom on the floor and I fired the guy who left it there. He spread his arms and added, this place is the only one like it in. In the whole earth. One day I hope to learn something from the other places, but so far I haven't. And he goes on to say how the finest restaurants in New York are shit. I don't advertise. I don't have to. All the big shot chefs and the kings of the hotels come here to see what I'm doing. The sign for everyone to see lists all of the soups that are available at the end of and this is me paraphrasing, and I just want to get credit that I'm now actually speaking. He then says, for most efficient and fastest service. And this is on a. On a sign. The line must be kept moving. Please have your money ready. Pick the soup of your choice. Move to the extreme left after ordering. I'm not prejudiced against color or religion, he told us, jabbing an index finger at the flashing sign with his rules. Whoever follows that, I treat very well. My regular customers don't say anything. They're very intelligent and well educated. They know I'm just trying to move the line. The New York cop is very smart. He sees everything but says nothing. But the young girl who wants to stop and tell you how nice you look and hold everyone up. Yahoo. He made a guillotining motion with his hand. I tell you, I hate to work with the public. They treat me like a slave. My philosophy is the customer is always wrong and I'm always right. I raised my prices to try to get rid of some of these people, but it didn't work.

[36:48] Meg: Okay, and where is this from?

[36:50] Jessica: This is the New Yorker. New Yorker.

[36:52] Meg: Okay.

[36:52] Jessica: He added that he wasn't sure how extensive his repertoire was, but that it probably includes at least 80 soups, among them African peanut butter, Greek moussaka, hamburger, Reuben blt, asparagus and caviar, Japanese shrimp, miso chicken, chili, Irish corned beef and cabbage, Swiss chocolate, French calf's brain, Korean beef ball, Italian shrimp and eggplant, Parmesan, buffalo ham and egg, short rib, Russian beef stroganoff, turkey cacciatore, and Indian mulligatawny. Quote, the chicken and the seafood are an addiction. And when I have French garlic soup, I let people have only one small container each. The doctors and nurses love that one.

[37:34] Meg: That's wild. Some of those things don't sound like soup.

[37:38] Jessica: That's his genius. Oh, now we're back to the author of this, the writer of this article, Alex Prudhomme.

[37:46] Meg: Oh, Prudhomme, Prudhomme. Any relation?

[37:49] Jessica: I don't know.

[37:50] Meg: I would assume.

[37:51] Jessica: I would assume as well, but who knows? On the day that Prudhomme was there, a line of 30 people wrapped around the block to get to the soup. This is pre Seinfeld, mind you.

[38:01] Meg: Got it.

[38:01] Jessica: At the front of the line, a woman in a brown coat couldn't decide which soup to get and started to complain about the prices. You talk too much, dear, Mr. Yagane said, and motioned to her to move to the left. Next. Just don't talk. Do what he says, a man huddled in a blue parka warned.

[38:20] Meg: This is directly from the episode.

[38:22] Jessica: He's downright rude, said a blonde woman in a blue coat. Even abusive. But you can't deny it. His soup is the best.

[38:31] Meg: They ripped off this article verbatim.

[38:34] Jessica: Yes, they did. So, Larry. So, mind you, things that made Al even more pissed off. Here's a litany. The guy who played him won an Emmy.

[38:48] Meg: He's very funny.

[38:49] Jessica: Yes, but he didn't like that very much because, well, it didn't reflect too well on Al's behavior. And did not show a profound understanding of what motivated him. However, despite his chewing out of Seinfeld and his cohorts, despite saying that it ruined his life, Al decided that he was going to license the image of the actor who played him and used him as his logo.

[39:16] Meg: That is smart. And this gets back to the Ray's episode and the bagel episode.

[39:22] Jessica: It's all about what branding is going to set you apart.

[39:26] Meg: Jessica, when we open our restaurant, let's just make sure that we have the logo, like, underlined, trademarked.

[39:34] Jessica: Everything is.

[39:35] Meg: What would we serve in our restaurant? I like dips.

[39:40] Jessica: You do like dips. You're like Martin Short in Only Murders in the Building.

[39:45] Meg: Yeah.

[39:46] Jessica: You are very.

[39:47] Meg: I can very much relate to that.

[39:49] Jessica: I like finger food. I like cocktail party food.

[39:53] Meg: Finger food. That's it. That's it.

[39:54] Jessica: It's a restaurant. Cocktail party.

[39:56] Meg: It's a restaurant of cocktail food.

[39:58] Jessica: Yes. I'm down with that. Anything that you can put in a blanket, I'm ready for it.

[40:04] Meg: Or anything.

[40:04] Jessica: Tiny quesadillas, tiny empanadas. Exactly.

[40:08] Meg: Anything in a pocket of.

[40:10] Jessica: Of dough.

[40:11] Meg: Right?

[40:12] Jessica: Dough pot. In fact, that's what our restaurant is going to be called. Dough pocket.

[40:15] Meg: I think we can do better than that, actually.

[40:17] Jessica: No, but now. But that's just gonna make me laugh. Ziploc bag. Puree in a Ziploc bag. So just letting you know, that was my cause. He had some pureed soups in there. I don't know if it was the BLT soup.

[40:31] Meg: He had a carrot soup, the moussaka soup. I'm like, I love a moussaka. But so much about that is texture. So I don't know.

[40:39] Jessica: But look, I should say it's out.

[40:41] Meg: Haven't tried it.

[40:42] Jessica: He knew.

[40:43] Meg: And you know what? I think there is an east side version now.

[40:45] Jessica: Well, it was purchased. He sold it. He still has an interest in it. In later years, he decided maybe he'd put his feet up. Good for you.

[40:56] Meg: You've earned it.

[40:57] Jessica: But with his exacting standards, the recipes remain.

[41:01] Meg: That's amazing. I love it.

[41:03] Jessica: Now, if we think he's nuts, let me introduce you to another crackpot out of central casting. And no one has done a TV show episode about him. However, there's a documentary about him and his restaurant, and that is Kenny Shopson, who had Shopson's. That was in a couple of different locations, but in the West Village. And now, even though Kenny is no longer with us, the Shopsons outpost at the Essex Street Market is still around.

[41:37] Meg: What did they. What's the food.

[41:38] Jessica: Well, let's talk about it. Because where Al was all about the food, Kenny was about the food. But the experience was really about Kenny. Okay, so let's talk about Shopsons. Shopsons is a perfect example of New Yorkers, people coming to New York, living in New York because they really just don't fit in anyplace else. And Kenny Shopson, who started, who opened the very first iteration of Shopsons in 1973, came from a family of achievers. Banker, architect, lawyer. Kenny Shobson wasn't that kind of guy. He moves to New York and he becomes a young superintendent living in the Village and some art related stuff and not really dealing with anything that has to do with any authority. He does not want anyone be the boss of him.

[42:36] Meg: Okay.

[42:37] Jessica: He meets a lovely young woman named Eve. The guy who owns the corner store where they live is selling it. Kenny decides he's gonna take it over and they start basically like a corner deli sandwich business. But then it grows. In 1982, shops became a restaurant. It was almost like a club. You knew about it or you didn't know about it. It was a neighborhood thing. That's how people knew about it. Because it was in the Village. A lot of well known people who are writers and artists liked to go there. One of the biggest devotees was Calvin Trillin, who became a friend of the family and would write about Shopson's in the New Yorker and more than once.

[43:22] Meg: So were the sandwiches any good?

[43:24] Jessica: Always very good. And Kenny Shopson had a way of doing things that was just a little different and it was always about the techn. Here's an example. I actually purchased the incredible cookbook that's really like part memoir, part cookbook that he did with his daughter Tamara, I think her name is, who's a designer and it's one of the best designed cookbooks I've ever seen. The whole family got involved. Every single person worked at Shopson's at some point in their lives, or still do. I can't make a chicken salad any way other than Kenny Shopson's way. Now a chicken salad sandwich. Chicken salad is chicken, poached, roasted, whatever, chopped, cubed mayonnaise, whatever your mayonnaise dressing is. Maybe you like a little diced onion, maybe you like a little celery. And that's it, right? You mix it up. No, no, says Kenny Shopson. The thing about chicken is it will absorb the mayonnaise. So once you have the chicken and it's cooled, you massage the mayonnaise into the Chicken. The chicken absorbs it so it becomes one entity. It's not chicken with a dressing on it. It's now a very moist chicken. A very. Yes, it's a very moist, shredded down, salted, peppered and that's it. And it is the best chicken salad you will ever have in your life. It is.

[44:49] Meg: And you've been able to replicate it?

[44:51] Jessica: Oh, yes. That is now the way that it is done.

[44:54] Meg: I mean, we should post the recipe on.

[44:56] Jessica: Well, we can take a few photos of the book. And I can't stress enough, it is one of the most beautifully designed books I've ever seen, certainly as a cookbook. Here's a little excerpt from Calvin Trillin about Shopson's. One evening when the place was nearly full, I saw a party of. And let me just preface Kenny. Shopson had as many rules as Al did. They were different. It was not about efficiency. It was, are you my friend? Are you like me? Are you in the club?

[45:26] Meg: And just so I can picture it, was it a deli counter or did you see.

[45:29] Jessica: No, it became a restaurant. It became like.

[45:32] Meg: So you had a hostess who sat.

[45:33] Jessica: There was no hostess. You know, it was like a dinery kind of situation, but no booths, just tables.

[45:39] Meg: Okay.

[45:39] Jessica: And Kenny, like Katz's? No, but even less formal. If you can be less formal than Katz's. But. But we'll put some photos on Instagram.

[45:49] Meg: So.

[45:49] Jessica: One evening when the place was nearly full, I saw a party of four come in the door. A couple of them may have been wearing neckties, which wouldn't have been a plus in a restaurant whose waitress used to wear a T shirt that said Die Yuppie Scum. Kenny took a quick glance from the kitchen and said, nope, we're closed. After a brief try at appealing a decision, the party left and the waitress pulled the security gate partway down to discourage other latecomers. It's only 8 o', clock, I said to Kenny. They were nothing but strangers, he said. I think those are usually called customers, I said. They come here, you give them food, they give you money. It's known as the restaurant business. Kenny shrugged. Fuck em, he said. So you had to be artsy or relaxed or open. And if you didn't look like you were an open minded individual, Kenny's very close minded way of looking at things would get you bo. He created shops as his universe. It's not that we have very high standards, he said of his commitment to making good food. It's that they're gonna put it in their mouth. What on knowing your worth. He said, the first duty of everybody in life is to realize that they're a piece of shit. On existential angst. He said, pick an arbitrary stupid goal and become totally involved in it and pursue it with vigor. And what happens to you in that pursuit is your life.

[47:16] Meg: I think that's great advice.

[47:18] Jessica: Yes. I think it is also great advice. But I was crying, laughing over. It's not quality per se, but, you know, it is going in your mouth. You might. You might want to pay attention.

[47:31] Meg: It's the in your mouth standard.

[47:33] Jessica: He said, one of the few advantages to owning a small business is that I can do whatever the hell I want, which means I can cook whatever the hell I want. So let's talk a little bit about what Kenny would cook. So Al had eight things maximum on his menu. And eight is a lot of soups to cook in a tiny place in one day. Kenny Shopson's menu had almost a thousand items on it.

[47:58] Meg: Whoa.

[47:58] Jessica: There were a million different versions of eggs and pancakes. And his brilliance, and again, this is for the cookbook, is he could repurpose anything into anything else.

[48:12] Meg: You would have to if you have that many things on the menu.

[48:14] Jessica: Exactly. Yes, he had Mac and cheese, but he also made savory Mac and cheese pancakes.

[48:21] Meg: Yes, he did.

[48:22] Jessica: Yes, he did.

[48:22] Meg: He put everything in a pancake.

[48:24] Jessica: Yes, he did. What he did with eggs can only be described as ingenious, as a reinvention, a constant reinvention. He had a version of huevos rancheros that he called blister on my sister's because it looked like boobs. He had two fried eggs. I know, not good. And he was very anti fancy. He was like, I've tried making every kind of pancake batter on the planet. He's like, Bisquick is exactly right. And he's like, what you do is you mix it up, you put it in a squeeze bottle, like a, you know, like a ketchup thing. He's like, that's all you need to do.

[49:04] Meg: That's actually brilliant. Yeah.

[49:05] Jessica: And he was like, I have a squeeze bottle and he can get things out of the kitchen in three seconds. Cause he was like, he just shaken up in there. Done. Move on to the next one.

[49:14] Meg: I'm gonna try that.

[49:15] Jessica: Yes.

[49:15] Meg: Bisquick is a little sweeter than I like in my pancake mix, but I hear ya. I mean, pancakes, I'm thinking, throw a

[49:23] Jessica: little salt in there, you even it out. I don't know. But the thing is, so I went to Shopson's and I definitely got the whole like, are you one of us? Kind of vibe. I went with my. I know. I went with my friend Bronwyn, who was a regular, so I didn't really encounter anything nasty. And the food was absolutely delicious as only true home cooking can be. And that's what it was. It was home cooking. It's like, put more cheese on it, throw some more enchilada sauce. It might be good. Oh, yeah, it is. That sounds pretty. Okay, great. Nothing. Gorgeous. Everything tasty.

[49:59] Meg: Yeah.

[50:00] Jessica: However, the writer of the article that I was quoting, Helen Rosner, who wrote for the New Yorker. Helen. Helen was not very brave. Uh oh. She'd made many attempts to go to Shopsons over the years at all of its locations, wherever it had been over those years. Friends who were regulars volunteered to accompany her there to serve as a virgil through the hells and heavens of Kenny's kingdom. But every time she chickened out, she

[50:25] Meg: was too scared to go.

[50:28] Jessica: Scared to go.

[50:29] Meg: But she wrote an article about it.

[50:31] Jessica: Yes.

[50:32] Meg: That's fascinating.

[50:33] Jessica: And in 2004, the documentary about Kenny and his family and the restaurant called I Like Killing Flies came out, and it was absolutely divine.

[50:45] Meg: I'm totally gonna watch it, so you

[50:47] Jessica: should watch it, you know. So is this a story about a restaurant? Sort of. Is it a story about rugged individualism? Definitely. Is it about family businesses? Sort of. And is it about how in New York we are good to each other and we do support each other? And even with someone like Kenny Shopson, he was supporting the good folk who he wanted to serve. And Al really was serving people and wanted to be good because his soups had to be perfect. So cranks. Yes. Good intentions. I think so. Else. The other thing that I want to say about Shopsons is almost every other small business that we've talked about and even Action park, there's litigation, there's bankruptcy, there's embezzlement in almost every story, whether it's supposed to.

[51:51] Meg: I was going to say what our tie in is, is kind of mavericks. Yes.

[51:56] Jessica: However, I just do wanna say that Kenny Shopson, no bankruptcy, no lawsuits, nothing.

[52:04] Meg: All right, so he's the outlier.

[52:05] Jessica: He was the outlier. Because really, it was all. It was all love. He managed to make it work. The bubble. Because it was. Yes. And it was only family. And unlike the Crazy Eddie and his family. Call back to episode number. Ay, ay, ay. I don't know. 5. I don'. You know, this was a family that really stuck together. So your tie in is mavericks.

[52:30] Meg: I think so, Right?

[52:31] Jessica: Yes.

[52:32] Meg: And I want to please everybody, come on down to Bailey's Corner Pub on 85th and York. 85th and York. And just so everybody knows, if it's not totally obvious, York. We're gonna be in Yorkville, which we talk about all the time in this wonderful.

[52:53] Jessica: Yes. Who, by the way, just to make it even more ridiculously of our world, when I called and spoke to the owner to get us set up for our night on April 4, from 6 to 9. From 6 to 9, I told him a little bit about us and what we do and how we're friends and where we went to school and all of that. Cause he asked, where'd you go? He went to Buckley and Trinity.

[53:16] Meg: Okay. There you go. It's all in the family.

[53:20] Jessica: It just doesn't stop.