[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City. We where we still live and where

[00:29] Meg: we podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines.

[00:32] Jessica: And I do pop culture.

[00:34] Meg: And we are on 23rd street today, which is very unusual for us.

[00:38] Jessica: I love it.

[00:40] Meg: Do you?

[00:40] Jessica: Yes. I spend way too much time in my apartment. So this is like, you know, a field trip on top of a field trip.

[00:48] Meg: And what also makes it so special?

[00:51] Jessica: We have a friend.

[00:53] Meg: We have a friend.

[00:54] Jessica: We have a. We're popular. We have a friend. And he even is here.

[00:59] Meg: The amazing Travis has joined us for at least one episode. Two episodes if we have enough content, and I have a feeling that we will.

[01:10] Jessica: Travis is unstoppable. You can't stop the beat. You can't stop the rhythm. You can't stop the madness.

[01:18] Meg: Yay. So welcome, Travis.

[01:21] Jessica: Thank you.

[01:21] Travis: Well, thanks for having me again. I was so excited to be invited.

[01:25] Jessica: We love having you, and you bring a very special energy. Oh, well, I'm sure you do. I've heard about you on the street. I know things.

[01:33] Meg: Before we get started, I just wanted to share something about last week's episode that was written in by one of our BFFs. Loved the episode on zines. MRR was like the Internet for punks nationally. We wrote letters and called each other based on stuff published in that zine. And also went to stay with people when going to an out of town. People we had never met. Very safe behavior.

[02:00] Jessica: Lol. Well, that's called community, baby.

[02:04] Meg: Right. And I looked up mrr that stands for Maximum Rock and Roll Magazine.

[02:11] Jessica: That's like. It's so MRR you can't handle.

[02:14] Travis: I think Maximum Rock and Roll was still around too.

[02:16] Meg: I think it is, too. Yeah. Based on my Google search.

[02:19] Travis: Oh, well, there you go. It definitely is. Well, you would know better than me.

[02:35] Meg: So today I get to tell two people a story

[02:40] Jessica: that is thrilling. And I plan to have. Well, I hope Travis will join me in dramatic reactions.

[02:48] Travis: Dramatic reactions.

[02:49] Jessica: Yes.

[02:49] Travis: I'm not much of a drama queen.

[02:51] Jessica: Well, you're gonna join me today. I like gasping, clutching the pearls. Oh, no, he didn't. Lots of that.

[02:59] Meg: And also, Travis is gonna so much insight into this particular story. And you will find out why.

[03:05] Travis: Jessica, I don't know how much this was going to shock me, because I do know a little bit about it.

[03:09] Jessica: Well, and it won't Shock you. Maybe you'll be enraged and have to share your feelings, but I'm excited to hear it.

[03:15] Meg: Fill in the blank.

[03:16] Travis: It is a fairly sad and very outrageous story.

[03:19] Jessica: So, yes, these are all of my favorite words.

[03:22] Meg: Oh, you know what, I'm going to ask you an engagement question. Travis, do you remember your first day of school at Wagner?

[03:30] Travis: I do, as a matter of fact. Because, well, like, there's certain things that you remember. And I remember walking to Wagner because, you know, back then everybody walked to school. You know, I walked to school and it surprised me how it seemed everybody on the block had a cigarette hanging out of their mouth really? In seventh grade. And that's something that I really, really remember because, you know, in sixth grade nobody smoked. In seventh grade everybody smoked. And when I say everybody, that's quite an exaggeration. Like myself, I have one thing I'm very proud of. I've never smoked a cigarette in my life. Well, lucky, there's not a lot of people can say that.

[04:06] Meg: That's true.

[04:06] Travis: But Travis can say that. And back then I remember going. Two things I remember about my first day of Wagner is showing up on, geez, what is it? 77th and 76th Street. Well, what I didn't realize is that then 77th street was the girls only entrance. And that's where I went because I didn't know better, okay. And so I get there and again, every kid has got a cigarette hanging out of their mouth. I'm like, what am I getting myself mixed up in? And then I was wrong because I'm the only boy trying to go in the girls door. And they sent me around the other side where we would enter in the. You'd go into the schoolyard, you know, where the basketball courts are and stuff like that. And that's where the boys would have to go in.

[04:45] Meg: Can you describe, you know, how they still, you still see boys entrance and girls entrance in old schools? I don't think they use that anymore.

[04:54] Travis: I mean, today in today's PC culture, I'm sure that they don't, but that was common back then. You know, the boys went on one side of the building, the girls went. Now we all sat in class together. Of course, you know, this wasn't the 1920s, but probably went back to when. Well, and Wagner's not an old school either. I don't know.

[05:10] Jessica: In classes we were all just traffic, right? Like managing the flow of traffic.

[05:16] Meg: We should look into this. I'm now intrigued. I feel like there's got to be a good reason for this, my sources are Mama's Boy by Richard Pinch. Pinch.

[05:29] Jessica: It looks like pincheck.

[05:30] Meg: I bet it is. The New York Times and the Daily news. On Saturday, June 2, 1984, the body of an unidentified young woman was spotted down the embankment of the Delaware Water Gap, which is in Pennsylvania. She was wrapped in an orange, brown and tan bedspread and she was wearing a bra and jeans with zippers on the ankle cuffs.

[05:56] Jessica: Oh, you remember those?

[05:58] Travis: Yes, that's what my wife was wearing when I met her.

[06:02] Jessica: With bunchy socks and sneakers.

[06:03] Travis: Yeah, she had these. Oh, my beautiful Christine. The first day I ever saw her. Okay. She was a waitress in the Bronx. I don't want to take away from your story, but get me started. All right. And she had these skin tight black jeans with no pockets on the back and the tight zippers down the back at the ankle.

[06:19] Jessica: Oh, yes.

[06:20] Travis: And I said, yes, sir.

[06:22] Jessica: That was it. That's for me.

[06:23] Travis: Yeah, that's where it all started.

[06:24] Jessica: Well, she sounds very kick ass.

[06:26] Travis: Oh, she was. She was. She still is.

[06:29] Jessica: Yay.

[06:29] Meg: Back to our dead body. I'm so sorry.

[06:32] Jessica: Fashion tips from corpses.

[06:35] Meg: Her throat had been stabbed five times and she had dozens of additional wounds across her face and body. She had been tortured with a lit cigarette and she was exsanguinated.

[06:48] Jessica: Oh, great God.

[06:50] Meg: Suggesting she'd been hanged upside down when she was murdered.

[06:54] Jessica: Jesus. Christmas.

[06:57] Meg: Exactly one year earlier, In June of 1983, Eric Napolitano graduated from Julia Richmond High school on East 67th and 2nd Avenue. When did you go to Julia Richmond, Travis?

[07:13] Travis: Well, I went. Well, I didn't graduate from Julia Richmond.

[07:16] Meg: Okay.

[07:17] Travis: But I went at the same time Eric did because we were classmates in Wagner Junior High School. In fact, Eric sat next to my brother Henry in Spanish class.

[07:27] Jessica: Gosh, Good Lord.

[07:29] Meg: Yeah. And okay, so this is. He just graduated from high school. This is a young guy we're talking about right now, okay? He'd grown up on East 88th with his mother, Carolyn, who had raised him mostly by herself. She was estranged from her own family, got pregnant from a one night stand with Eric Ernest Napolitano. Ultimately rejected by Eric and all the Napolitanos, and proceeded to raise baby Eric on her own. Baby Eric was a handful from the beginning. In third grade at St. Joseph's Grammar School on 87th between 1st and York. He was so disruptive that Carolyn checked him into Bellevue, where he stayed for three months in third grade.

[08:15] Jessica: A third grader in third grade?

[08:17] Meg: Yeah. At the age of eight.

[08:19] Jessica: Well, if he wasn't already fucked up that's going to do it because Bellevue never. Never a joy to be in.

[08:26] Meg: I mean, they had a youth wing. That's a question.

[08:31] Jessica: I think pediatric ward might. The youth wing. Oh, it sounds so elegant.

[08:42] Meg: Then in fourth and fifth grades at Green Chimneys, a residential treatment center in Brewster focusing on animal assisted therapy.

[08:52] Jessica: If you tell me that he tortured the animals, I'm going to jump out the windows.

[08:55] Travis: What a small world this is. Okay. My first ever house, which we bought. I don't know, I was maybe 35 years old. I was still working in the police department, was in Brewster, New York. And I'm very familiar with Green Chimneys because even, like it says something about animal fostering treatment, animal assisted therapy, they have a great thing that's open to the public. So if anybody wants to go, you go to Green Chimneys and they have all these birds of prey and things on exhibit. They have a bald eagle, they have a condor. They have all this stuff. And I would take my son all the time to go and look at the birds because it was right there

[09:32] Meg: where we lived, I gotta say.

[09:33] Jessica: Incredible.

[09:34] Meg: I looked it up online. It looks like a really lovely place. And you can imagine if you are a troubled kid who's having emotional problems,

[09:41] Jessica: that could be a.

[09:42] Meg: A really good kind of therapy to have. I don't think it worked for Eric, though, unfortunately. So that's where he spent fourth and fifth grade. So he's not spending a lot of time at home.

[09:54] Jessica: Actually, this is three months at Bellevue and then all of fourth grade and

[09:59] Meg: all fourth and fifth grade. And he was hospitalized again for two months when he was in sixth grade. Then in the summer between seventh grade and eighth grade, Eric was riding his bike in Central park when he met a kid named Wally. Wally told him he lived with a businessman named Bob.

[10:22] Jessica: Can I ask you a question before we continue? Yes. Number one, is there any information about his diagnosis when he was a kid?

[10:32] Meg: No.

[10:33] Jessica: Okay. And a businessman named Bob. Was that what Wally said?

[10:39] Meg: That's what Wally said.

[10:40] Jessica: Oh, dear.

[10:41] Meg: He said, I live with a businessman named Bob.

[10:43] Jessica: That is every red flag on the planet.

[10:46] Meg: It does indeed. Wally and Eric. Sorry. Go ahead, Travis.

[10:49] Travis: No, I. Well, I don't want to get ahead of your story because I know sometimes that makes you mad when I listen, you know, But Bob. I don't know anything about Bob. Was Bob from Queens or was that Uncle Al? That was from Queens.

[11:03] Meg: Oh, we're coming to that.

[11:04] Travis: We're coming to that. I don't want to interject that. I'm sorry.

[11:06] Meg: That's okay, so this is Wally and Bob.

[11:09] Jessica: Wait, can I just say something?

[11:11] Meg: Yes.

[11:11] Jessica: The fact that there's, like, a cast of characters, of guys it might be, is so chilling. You're like, is it Bob? Is it Max? Is it? No, this is not a good story. I'm sorry. It's making me nervous.

[11:24] Meg: All right, so Wally is the kid. Bob is the business businessman. And Wally the kid meets Eric, and he says, hey, this is my living situation. So Wally and Eric become pals, and within a week, Bob called Carolyn, Eric's mom, to ask if he and his friend Al, Bob's friend Al, could take young Eric and Wally to the Bronx Zoo.

[11:52] Jessica: This is so beautiful.

[11:53] Meg: Bad it is. Carolyn thought Bob sounded nice on the phone and said yes. Soon after that outing, Bob and Wally were no longer in the picture. I don't know what happened to them, but Al became a huge part of Eric and Carolyn's lives. Al was Al Giovine. I think that's how you pronounce it. He was a bachelor in his 40s who was involved in the importing and exporting of jeans and led Carolyn to believe that he was active with Big Brothers, a Catholic volunteer organization that pairs young boys with male mentors. Do you have any experience with Big Brothers?

[12:36] Travis: I personally don't know.

[12:37] Meg: Do you remember the ads on tv?

[12:40] Jessica: Yes.

[12:40] Travis: I mean, it's been a thing forever.

[12:41] Meg: Yeah, it's been.

[12:42] Travis: I know what it is.

[12:43] Meg: Yeah.

[12:43] Travis: But I've never had any experience with it. No.

[12:45] Meg: I mean, it sounds like a wonderful thing in theory. It also sounds like something that could

[12:49] Jessica: very sound like pedophiles are us. It sounds like it's a NAMBLA chapter. I don't mean to cast aspersions on the wonderful things that it has done.

[12:58] Meg: I think if you are a pedophile, if you can become a volunteer at Big Brothers, that would serve your purpose. Not that all people who are volunteers for Big Brothers.

[13:10] Jessica: Yes. I was too enthusiastic in my condemnation. Yes, you're right.

[13:17] Meg: And I feel like we definitely know now we're more aware of those kinds of red flags than we were then. Fair?

[13:26] Jessica: Oh, my God, yes, absolutely.

[13:27] Travis: Yeah, absolutely.

[13:28] Meg: Eric would go on to live with Al in Jackson Heights, commuting to Robert Wagner Junior High on East 76th street and later to Julia Richmond for the next five years. He basically moved in with the guy.

[13:43] Travis: Just so people know, Eric was not a dear friend of mine. We knew him, you know, like, when you go to school with somebody, you know who he is. You know, on my end, to tell you the truth, he was a really funny fucker. He was. I mean, he was completely out of his mind. So he was entertaining, is what I should say. You know, and not so much in a comical sense as with his antics. Okay. He would do things like, you know, if you remember, you know what a punch card is, where you punch your name in. So in the front office, all the teachers would have to hit their time card. Well, he knew every teacher by his first name and only called him by their first name. And of course, in our time, that was a big. No.

[14:19] Jessica: No, that was.

[14:19] Travis: We didn't do that in our time. You know, I know today, with this new age stuff that they're doing, kids are calling their teachers by the first name all the time. That was forbidden back then. And he would drive teachers insane with that. Insane.

[14:33] Jessica: So he'd just casually be like, hey, Carol.

[14:35] Travis: Oh, all the time.

[14:36] Jessica: Nice dress.

[14:37] Travis: All the time. Or if he was reprimanded, you know. Exactly. That's exactly what he would do, you know.

[14:41] Meg: So he had issues with authority figures?

[14:44] Travis: Oh, most certainly. Yeah. Most certainly.

[14:48] Meg: As it turns out, Al had sexual relationships with teenagers and young men he picked up at Port Authority. It would come out years later and will not surprise you that he also had sex with young Eric. Eric, in the meantime, was not thriving in school. He failed eight classes in two semesters of 10th grade. But they didn't hold him back. His creative writing was of note. One story he called the Rope was a fantasy about a husband hanging his nagging wife. He also wrote parodies of TV shows. Nights of Our Lives, Bad Times, Hate Boat. He's.

[15:29] Jessica: It's not. It's okay. We are laughing because a. It's kind of witty. Like, let's just. Let's just be honest.

[15:37] Travis: Well, I could see a parody of Love Boat being Hate Boat.

[15:40] Jessica: Hate Boat is pretty wild.

[15:42] Travis: I smiled myself. I'm sorry.

[15:43] Jessica: Thank you. Okay. I want to get on the hate. Like, there are. I have a lot of issues to take on the hate boat myself. But it's also just so shocking that it's so clear that this was a very troubled, unhappy kid.

[16:02] Meg: Yeah.

[16:02] Jessica: Yes.

[16:03] Meg: When he graduated, he started work at FEVA shoe store on Paris.

[16:07] Jessica: Oh, my God. I remember Fevre. They were okay.

[16:12] Meg: But he was really itching to join the Marines.

[16:15] Jessica: Yes.

[16:16] Meg: Al told Eric he was a Marine. He'd had a brief stint marred with offenses and punishments and ultimately was not recommended for reenlistment. So al was not 4F. But actually, this is a good time to ask you. So you left Julia Richmond when Did you. You did. You said you didn't graduate.

[16:36] Travis: No, I left. I was, like, 15 years old, you know, I left after my first year. And even during my first year, I barely went to begin with, you know. I mean, I didn't really go to Wagner very often either, to tell you the truth. I was a very truant young man, you know, so.

[16:50] Meg: And you went into the Army?

[16:52] Travis: I went into the army, yes.

[16:53] Meg: Okay.

[16:54] Travis: I went. My brother. Actually, I came home one day. I don't want to get off track

[16:58] Meg: here, but this was on track.

[17:00] Travis: Okay. Well, we were actually working construction jobs at the time, because back then, it was very easy to get construction jobs as a laborer because they just. If you showed up, they would give you a job, you know? And I was coming home. I was doing a job up in Harlem somewhere, and I was walking past a recruiter on 116th street, and I walked in and I said, I want to join the army, and. Because I kind of want to do this John Wayne thing and be a paratrooper. I don't know what movie I just saw, and probably the Longest Day or something, you know? And he asked me how old I was, and I said, I'm 17. He said, well, here's a piece of paper. You have to have your mom sign. And so I went back home, and we were sitting around the dinner table doing the what did you do today? What did you do today? Kind of thing, you know? And I was sitting next to my brother Henry here, and he was actually, at the time, also interested in the Marine Corps, you know, because we needed to do something with our lives, you know, because even at 17, we were basically living the lives of grown men. And I said, well, I went and I talked to the recruiter, and I'm gonna join the Army. And everybody's like, really? And I said, yeah, man, I have a piece of paper you have to sign to get me in. And she was thrilled to have me go because, again, she knew it was a good direction for me. As opposed to staying in the neighborhood.

[18:12] Meg: Well, yes, and I think it was actually not a bad idea for Eric either.

[18:18] Travis: I think it would have been a good. Well, he actually did get in.

[18:20] Meg: Well, yeah, but it didn't work out.

[18:23] Travis: It didn't last.

[18:24] Meg: Okay. Right before Christmas, 1983, Eric was assigned to the Marine Corps Recruit Depot on Parris Island, S.C. at this point, Carolyn and Al appeared to be competing for Eric's affection. Both wrote him letters that vacillated between declarations of love, guilt tripping about his absence and jealous rants about each other. Look, I'm not a doctor, but it seems like both these people, like put all of their crap on. It was a hot mess.

[18:59] Jessica: Wildly unhealthy. Yes.

[19:01] Meg: Yeah.

[19:01] Travis: Oh, well, here. You had this. This poor kid, okay? And I know where we're going to go. We're not going to be saying poor kid in a little while.

[19:08] Meg: We're not going to be saying.

[19:09] Travis: But here it is, as we spoke about before, this, you know, nature, nurture thing right here. You had a kid who was clearly a crazy fucker to begin with, okay? But his allies in life were a crazy mother because she was batshit crazy, there's no doubt about that. And then a pedophile stranger who he was living with part time and she

[19:31] Meg: just gave him to the pedophiles. Ginger or. What's your take on that?

[19:36] Travis: Well, yes, gave him. But not for nothing, for this woman. And again, I don't know. I don't know these people very, very deeply. I just know who they are, okay? I know as a father, my son would not be spending three months in Bellevue. Bellevue. Thank you. All right. Or grades. Spending, you know, whatever it was, fourth and fifth grade in fucking Green Chimneys. Yeah. No, he's your kid. You take care of him, you know, you nurture. You. You're both mothers, right? Yes, I know she is. I'm sorry.

[20:08] Jessica: No, no, no.

[20:10] Travis: But you know, you. I'm not personally. You should be with your children. You should take care of your children. You should raise your children yourself, you know, and sending them away, it seems like she was trying to dump them on every corner she could.

[20:22] Jessica: Well, you were saying that she was a crazy person. How is she? In what way did she present as a nut?

[20:28] Meg: Well, what I just told you, for example, she was incredibly manipulative.

[20:33] Travis: Yes. And then the way I understand it, and again, I don't know them personally to talk this way, but from what I understand, she was incredibly needy at the same time.

[20:40] Meg: Exactly.

[20:41] Travis: So although once her needs were filled, she would then basically abandon the child or over punish him for not fulfilling her needs. Does that make sense to you?

[20:52] Jessica: Well, it sounds like a classic narcissist.

[20:54] Meg: Yes, exactamundo.

[20:56] Travis: You got it.

[20:56] Jessica: Thank you.

[20:57] Meg: You might be right on that one. Not that we're doctors, but we've met many people.

[21:01] Jessica: But we judge a lot of people. And yes, we know narcissists.

[21:05] Meg: So both these people, Carolyn and Al. Eric doesn't need to be getting all this kind of manipulation and guilt tripping and love bombing. And all this kind of stuff when he, you know, he's still a young guy. He's like, right now. Right. Just graduated. Eric did not find his tribe at boot camp. He was miserable and eventually managed to get discharged for medical reasons, claiming his testicles hurt. That is true.

[21:36] Jessica: Am I allowed to laugh?

[21:37] Meg: Yes, absolutely.

[21:38] Jessica: Because.

[21:39] Meg: Yeah. And his mom and Al were. Were both really angry at him because they were like, that's not a real injury. What are you doing? And he was just trying to get home. He lasted less than a month.

[21:50] Travis: Oh, less than a month.

[21:52] Meg: Less than a month. Everything that happens in this story happens in such a condensed period of time.

[21:58] Travis: Yeah.

[21:59] Meg: He gets busy in a second.

[22:01] Jessica: Good gravy.

[22:01] Meg: Sorry. And the Marines seem perfectly okay with him leaving after just a month. They're like, see ya.

[22:09] Travis: Let me step back just one second. Something that I know you're gonna love, Jessica. Okay.

[22:13] Jessica: Okay.

[22:14] Travis: Because you have a Nazi fetish, if I'm not mistaken.

[22:16] Jessica: Well, I'm just. I think that's a bit strong. I'm. I'm very. And I'm vehemently anti. Yes, there you go.

[22:31] Travis: However, I remember. I'm sorry. You remember our past conversations.

[22:35] Jessica: I'm just dying. Okay, go ahead.

[22:38] Travis: But one time, okay. And this might be part of this whole wanted. Because you very much wanted to be in the police department. You very much wanted to be into the Marine Corps. Right? But a lot of people have it in their head, not in their heart. All right?

[22:51] Meg: Yeah.

[22:51] Travis: But I remember back in Wagner Junior High School, you know, I mean, a good number of our teachers were Jewish, you know, and a lot of the administration was Jewish. And sure enough, anything to piss them off besides calling you by your first name if you were Jewish, you give you the Nazi Sulu.

[23:09] Jessica: Jesus Christ.

[23:10] Travis: And then. Okay, back to Uncle Al, because you said something about importing, which I didn't know.

[23:16] Meg: Yeah.

[23:16] Travis: But one time Eric came to school, okay. And he was showing us all at lunchtime. He had this little dagger, okay. It was From World War II with the swastika dag.

[23:28] Jessica: Oh.

[23:28] Travis: You know, and I don't know if it was, you know, a Hitler Youth thing or some officers thing or something.

[23:32] Jessica: Anyone who collects not paraphernalia.

[23:35] Travis: And of course, back in. Whatever this was 19 in 78. I'm fairly certain it was most certainly real, because why would you. Who was replicating that stuff back in the 70s? It was only 30 years after the war, so that's just a thing to see. Part of the twist that's going on there.

[23:51] Meg: Yeah, that's Very interesting.

[23:52] Jessica: Well, the depth of madness that he was living in with Al.

[23:56] Travis: Absolutely.

[23:57] Meg: So, Carolyn, in the meantime, very upset that he's left the Marines. She called him a spineless, weakling creature.

[24:06] Jessica: Jesus. Now, although on brand for her now,

[24:10] Meg: he would never be able to be a cop. That, and she really, really wanted him to be a cop. That was her dream for him. Carolyn, you see, worked for the New York Police Department. She was a civilian administrative assistant assigned to the Organized Crime Control Bureau at One Police Plaza. And she was obsessed with both law enforcement and. And the mob, donning a ton of NYPD merch and attending John Gotti's block parties and his trial. So I think that's interesting because of what you just said about the Nazi stuff, too, because I see it all kind of.

[24:49] Jessica: It is of a related right.

[24:51] Meg: Of this, like, people who want power. Like cops have power and Nazis have power and mobsters have power. Right.

[24:59] Travis: Well, she was what we call in our world, a buff. I'm sure they use that in other things too, you know, but she was a buff. She was a buff. She wanted the paraphernalia she liked, you know, I mean, and quite often, sometimes these people do get hired by the police department, but also quite often, they're not what we call active police officers. They end up being house mouses, and they have great stories around the kitchen table during Thanksgiving. But really, they're not cops. They're buffs. They like the stuff, you know.

[25:27] Meg: Right.

[25:27] Jessica: What's a house mouse?

[25:29] Travis: A house mouse is a police officer. Doesn't go in the street, they stay in the house.

[25:34] Jessica: Oh, interesting. Gotcha.

[25:35] Travis: You know, the house being the station house, so they find an administrative job.

[25:39] Jessica: I totally.

[25:40] Travis: And not all. And when I say that, I'm not talking bad about police officers who work in the house because we need everybody to do everything, their jobs to be done, you know. But a lot of people, a good number of them, end up hiding.

[25:52] Jessica: Oh, well, that's interesting. Yes, yes.

[25:55] Travis: Now, for her, she wasn't a cop. She was a paa, which is a police administrative assistant. So for lack of a better word, she was like a secretary for the police department. Okay. But don't be mistaken. Some of them have quite a bit of pull because.

[26:09] Jessica: Well, because they're there.

[26:11] Travis: Well, it's civil service and they move up, but also they can be in charge of very important things.

[26:15] Meg: Which we will get to.

[26:16] Travis: Which we're going to get to.

[26:17] Meg: Yeah, absolutely.

[26:18] Jessica: Such a good segue.

[26:20] Meg: Now, she. Carolyn, was able to get Eric signed up for the Auxiliary. Auxiliary Auxiliary. Auxiliary police when he was still in high school. Quote, this is from her. If you want to become a cop, being an auxiliary helps. You are using a police radio, you're confronting and you get to learn the law. You have everything the same as the cops. The entire uniform from head to toe, handcuffs, everything except a gun. And Eric really took to being an auxiliary cop. So that was a surprise to me that I could be walking down the street and see somebody who looks like a cop but isn't.

[27:01] Travis: Yeah, basically it's like a legitimate neighborhood patrol. I mean, I haven't seen an auxiliary cop in years. I'm sure they probably still exist. But like you two, if you chose to, you know, and didn't want to go, you know, hang out with Curtis Lewa. And being a guardian angel, the police department has it also.

[27:18] Meg: Okay.

[27:18] Travis: In the form of auxiliary police officers.

[27:20] Jessica: Oh my God.

[27:21] Travis: And what they'll quite often do is, you know, maybe at. At. They don't go on patrol, they don't answer real jobs or anything insane like that. But they'll be used at parades. They'll be used maybe around a school or something like that. Something to help when help is needed.

[27:38] Meg: Right.

[27:38] Travis: You know, it's a completely volunteer thing. And I think it was much more popular back in the 70s. I mean, I don't think. Well, I can't remember the last time

[27:45] Jessica: I saw when it was needed in neighborhoods. Right.

[27:50] Meg: But also, what a wonderful opportunity for people like this who want to. Well, do you remember, feel like a big guy?

[27:57] Travis: What do you call it? Oscar and Felix were auxiliary cops in one episode.

[28:01] Jessica: Are you kidding? Of the Odd Couple. Oh my God, that's so weird. I love that.

[28:08] Meg: So Eric loved that. Obviously he's in uniform, he has handcuffs. Of course he loves this.

[28:13] Travis: Well, he gets to be Buffy and Buff out.

[28:15] Meg: Exactly.

[28:16] Travis: That's the whole thing.

[28:16] Meg: Exactly, exactly. And after his brief stint at boot camp, Eric got a job as a traffic enforcement agent in training. And he planned to attend the NYPD Police Academy. But remember, he's still so young. His romantic life took up a lot of his time and energy. He met 15 year old Marilyn Kalujo two days after he got home from boot camp on Groundhog's Day, 1984. Marilyn had just been released after six months in metropolitan Hospital with a diagnosis of schizophrenia.

[28:53] Jessica: Oh, so this is a match made in hell.

[28:56] Meg: Yes, she is definitely a vulnerable person. Eric showered her with attention, convinced her her mother hated her. And within two weeks, the two of them were living at Al's place in Queens.

[29:08] Jessica: So he also used his mother's and Al's M.O. to get Marilyn.

[29:13] Meg: I'm so glad you mentioned that because it's. It's this whole thing, the love bombing, the isolation, the gaslighting, and eventually we'll get to the abuse. But we didn't have those terms then. When's the first time you ever heard of love bombing?

[29:30] Travis: Oh, that's two years ago. That's amazing.

[29:33] Meg: But I mean, it was a thing it's been in practice for.

[29:37] Jessica: Oh. I mean, it's antisocial behavior.

[29:40] Travis: Well, it's the old, you know, sweep

[29:41] Jessica: her off her feet, grand gestures.

[29:44] Travis: Yeah, tell her everything she wants to hear, you know, whiner and diner, you know, to the best of his ability. But it's the same thing, you know?

[29:51] Jessica: Yeah, but also to your point, about nature versus nurture, like what Meg just described is exactly what she described earlier

[29:59] Travis: about that apple doesn't fall far from the tree. You know, he grew up in a crazy household. I do believe he was born crazy to begin with. But possibly with the correct help, the right parents, the right care, he would not have gone on to become a criminal. You know, and here, you know, it's just crazy on top of crazy. What are you gonna get?

[30:20] Jessica: Not good.

[30:21] Travis: Not at all.

[30:22] Meg: Now, Carolyn hated Marilyn. See, Marilyn was Puerto Rican and therefore not good enough for Eric. Carolyn was really racist.

[30:34] Jessica: I'm gathering that.

[30:35] Meg: Okay, but that was like a big thing for her, which is also interesting with the whole Nazi thing. Sorry.

[30:40] Jessica: Oh.

[30:42] Meg: Although, yeah, in the book, in Mama's Boy, they definitely suggest that Eric was attracted to or he brought women of color home just to piss off his mother. I. I mean, that seems like conjecture

[30:56] Jessica: to me, but anyway, it's just a morass of insanity. Picking it apart seems difficult.

[31:03] Meg: Guess who is really jealous of Marilyn.

[31:05] Jessica: Al.

[31:06] Meg: Al. According to Al, this is a note that he wrote to Eric. I feel hell in her. Please get her out of here. She's going to ruin you and me.

[31:17] Jessica: Wait, wait, wait. Just say that one more time. I feel. I. He.

[31:20] Meg: I feel hell in her.

[31:22] Jessica: It's quite a turn of phrase.

[31:24] Meg: Eric and Marilyn's short relationship was physically abusive from the jump. And four months to the day after Eric and Marilyn met, the unidentified tortured body was found in the Pennsylvania Ravine. When asked, Eric said he had no idea where Marilyn was. Besides, he had started dating 17 year old Wanda Matos. Following the same pattern of first love bombing and then isolating, Eric convinced Wanda to marry him on September 6, 1984, three weeks after they met and three months after Marilyn disappeared. He's moving fast. And their relationship quickly turned violent. Then the New York Daily News published an article. Have you seen these people? And listed Marilyn as one of the missing. Wanda listened as Eric and Carolyn and Al discussed the article. But when Wanda asked Eric about it, he punched her in the nose. After another brutal beating in January, four months after their wedding. There seems to be a pattern here. Wanda escaped to her mother, Gladys, home in the Bronx. Once Gladys had Wanda back in her fold, she wasn't letting her out of her sight. Gladys kept Wanda tucked away. And even though Eric had a pretty good idea where Wanda was, she never left the apartment, so he wasn't able to get at her. But tragically, the same couldn't be said for Gladys, who continued with her daily routine. And on April 29, 1985, Gladys was shot at point blank range in the face six times on the street outside her apartment.

[33:08] Jessica: Holy shit.

[33:10] Meg: Eric really didn't like the mothers of any of the women that he was with. That was also a pattern.

[33:18] Travis: He didn't like anybody that got in his way.

[33:20] Jessica: Well, I would also imagine that he's playing out the drama of his own maternal relationship twisted up way.

[33:29] Meg: Detective Fatsini connected the dots, thanks to Wanda, and strongly suspected Eric. But when he tried to track him down, the runaround began. Whenever Eric was asked his name, age, or residence, he gave a different answer. His entire life, he would always say something slightly different. He would spell his name a little bit differently. So it was incredibly difficult to find records on him, which I thought was very interesting. Like, everybody is writing down by hand the information, but if you just skew it a little bit, then no one's ever going to realize that you were the guy who they asked about something else a while ago. You know what I mean?

[34:09] Jessica: The other thing that strikes me, because I know, Travis, you're gonna have something very important to say, is just that we've been talking about him as just a nutter and listening to the story for the first time. To me, it sounds like, okay, well, what loose cannon is this guy? And with the lifetime of giving a different name now, everything sounds premeditated. He wanted to be under the radar from, as you would say, Meg, the jump.

[34:36] Travis: Well, first of all, being through the system this whole time, and even not for nothing, New York City public school system is a bit of a system itself. You know, not to mention being locked up, basically locked up in green chimneys, you know, all these other experiences. Now, again, on my end, I don't know, and I don't believe the book talks about a life of crime for him. No, his crimes were strictly here. Okay? But I don't believe that Eric. And from what, again, what little I knew about him or remember about him, he was not a stupid kid. He may have done poorly in school, but he was not a dummy. All right? And again, you know, being a street wise kid, he was a street kid, so it was very easy that he could have not so much planned these crimes, but had always just fucked with everybody along the way. Giving a fake name. Yeah. If you're being asked anything by anybody, give a fake name.

[35:27] Jessica: Right.

[35:27] Travis: For years, working in bars and clubs, I never tell people my name because it can come back to bite me.

[35:34] Jessica: Is that why we know you as Judy?

[35:37] Travis: Well, I actually, when I used to work the door in different places, I used to call myself Nick. If you knew me, you knew me. But if I just. Hey. Oh, how you doing? What's your name? I'm Nick. Because again, you never wanted to come back to bite you in the ass. I actually went on three dates with a girl, and on the third date, I told her my real name.

[35:55] Meg: Did you go on a fourth date?

[35:57] Travis: Yeah, we actually dated for a little while, actually.

[35:58] Jessica: Okay, all right, all right, all right.

[36:01] Travis: She knew me as Nick. And, you know, it just kind of happened. And then the next thing you know, I'm like, two dates into this. I'm like, oh, God, I gotta tell this story.

[36:09] Jessica: This is like a Seinfeld episode, right? This is excellent. I actually had a bar name, also

[36:13] Travis: kind of a dark one, but yes.

[36:14] Jessica: Well, you know. No, I like it. You were keeping yourself safe. I had a bar name. My bar name was Betsy.

[36:19] Travis: What? You see? You see, you're doing the same thing.

[36:22] Jessica: Yeah, she was my au pair when I was a little tiny kid, so. And I loved her. So, Betsy.

[36:27] Travis: And of course, you know anybody that you were friends with, your friend introduced you, you always used your real name. But strangers. You don't need to know who I am. No, and especially in the big clothes, because they would always do it. If you girls knew my name, you would come and ask for me at the door. If you asked for Nick, they knew it wasn't me. I have actually had people ask for me from me. That's the truth. You know, working in a dozen different places, owning my own bars, people come. Oh, I know. Yeah. Travis, the owner, he's my friend. Blah, blah, blah. Oh, really? Nice to know, you know.

[37:00] Jessica: Yes. That's brilliant. I love it.

[37:03] Travis: That's why you don't do it?

[37:03] Jessica: Nope.

[37:04] Travis: So I can see. Definitely him. Oh, and what I wanted to say before, too. Remember back then, too now we have no computers at the time.

[37:11] Jessica: Right.

[37:11] Travis: You know, everything is small. So much easier now than it was then. But there was no computers, so it wasn't like Fazzini could do. It's the old gumshoe thing. He has to come to Manhattan. So you have a crime that occurred in Manhattan, but a body that was discovered in Pennsylvania.

[37:28] Jessica: Exactly.

[37:28] Travis: Now you have a homicide that happened in the Bronx. I mean, in the Bronx, you might as well be in Canada, man. It's a whole nother world. And then also working in the Bronx, and I'm not sure exactly where it was, but I'm sure it was a very, very busy place. And in the 70s or early 80s, it was rocking. So Vizzini's got 100 cases on his desk and he can't just bing, bing, bing, bing, bing in a computer and have Eric's name pop up. He's literally got to go to, you know, borough command to look through cards, to look through photos, to come down to Manhattan, do the same thing. It's a lot, a lot of legwork.

[38:03] Meg: Yeah.

[38:04] Travis: Okay.

[38:04] Meg: And it seemed like he was really the only one who was willing to do it at that time. Well, sure.

[38:09] Travis: Well, it was his case.

[38:10] Meg: Yeah.

[38:10] Travis: You know, it's not like on TV where you got a team of 15 guys. It's your case and you have to solve it.

[38:16] Meg: Right. You know, and it also helped that Carolyn had access to all kinds of police documents and knew every loophole there was to slow down the system.

[38:29] Jessica: Wow.

[38:30] Meg: So I think she also gave him a little tutorial, possibly. They also had different places that they lived, so she was on 88th street, but then they also had a place in East Village. And so it was also like, it was just hard to find him. Pancini wasn't able to do much more than question Eric, but he was able to make sure he didn't join the police academy. Thank God for that. Right? In August 1985, four months after Gladys assassination, Eric took up with 15 year old Myra Acevedo. Acevedo, Acevedo. And we know the pattern. Eric and myra were married Oct. 19, two months after they met.

[39:14] Jessica: Good God. What is the thinking on her part?

[39:19] Meg: I mean, these are all.

[39:21] Jessica: They're children, obviously. What am I saying?

[39:23] Meg: They're very young. And he was in each of these cases. He was able to manipulate them and get them away from their.

[39:30] Jessica: Wait, so how old was she?

[39:31] Meg: Oh, my gosh.

[39:32] Travis: Fifteen.

[39:32] Jessica: Fifteen. What am I. What am I saying? What is she thinking? What am I thinking? That's bananas.

[39:38] Travis: About 20.

[39:39] Meg: Now, we are still in. We're in 1985.

[39:43] Jessica: Yeah. So he's about 20.

[39:44] Travis: Yeah.

[39:45] Meg: Now, Marilyn's mother. Remember Marilyn, our first victim? She had been looking for her all this time because that's still an unidentified body. And there were some hiccups. Oddly, the missing person's report that her mother filed disappeared.

[40:04] Jessica: Oh, Carolyn.

[40:05] Meg: And then a notarized letter from Marilyn that she was safe and didn't want anything to do with her mother materialized. So that's a little suspicious. And, yes, I think the implication is that Carolyn was behind that. Nevertheless, Marilyn's mother never stopped looking and hoping. And around the time Myra gave birth to her and Eric's first child. Now we're bringing children in, dear. The Pennsylvania police identified the body in the ravine as Marilyn Kalujo. Now, there were many reasons why authorities were not able to nail Eric sooner. As you were talking about. Eric was a moving target, never staying in a residence for very long, always giving false info. There were different jurisdictions with poor communication, and his mother was super helpful at destroying records that would implicate her son. It wasn't until 1990, when Myra decided to leave her increasingly abusive husband, Eric, and take her, by now two sons to live with her parents in Puerto Rico. And then was never seen again.

[41:11] Jessica: Were the sons ever seen again?

[41:13] Meg: Yes. That Eric was finally held accountable. So, yes, Myra disappears.

[41:18] Jessica: Shit.

[41:19] Meg: Like, basically the day that she lines everything up. Like, she was supposed to call her father back later that day and just didn't call him back. New Jersey. Detective Donato refused to let Eric slip away, even with the huge pile of red tape that Eric and his mother were so good at manipulating. And eric was arrested March 27, 1991, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where he was hiding out with a new girlfriend.

[41:48] Jessica: That was my 21st birthday. Oh.

[41:51] Meg: On May 11, 1993, Eric was found guilty of Myra's murder, whom, it turns out, he strangled with a rope in front of their two young sons.

[42:01] Jessica: Jesus Christmas. Wait, wait, wait. I'm so sorry to go ask you a question, but New Jersey, he was picked up. Were they living in New Jersey?

[42:10] Meg: Why, they're in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Oh, he killed her in New Jersey.

[42:15] Travis: Was it the Jersey, Pennsylvania border, the Delaware Water Gap or wherever it was?

[42:19] Meg: Oh, the Delaware Water Gap. That was in Pennsylvania. And that was our first victim. That was Marilyn. But Myra and Eric lived in New Jersey.

[42:28] Jessica: Okay. That's what I was trying to do.

[42:29] Meg: And that's why we've got. Now we've got another wonderful police detective who's like, oh, my God, we've got to do something about this guy. This is crazy.

[42:38] Travis: And again, back to what I was saying. Without the computer that we have now. Okay, I'm sorry, Fazzini, but I can't remember the other fellow's name, Donato. But it would have been quite a bit of work for them to hook up together with the information. It's not like you put a guy's name in and it pops up, bang, bang, bang, bang. It was much, much more difficult and quite a bit more, again, footwork, legwork to make the connection.

[43:01] Meg: Yeah, I mean, so on the one hand, you hear all of this and it's so obvious what's happening. On the other hand, with all the different jurisdictions, how are you gonna track it and keep track of it? And how did the. And how does Fanzini and Donato end up talking to each other to be able to connect all the dots?

[43:18] Jessica: Yeah, I mean, we have the benefit of. What is it? Omniscient observer status? They must have been, like, ripping their hair out.

[43:26] Meg: There's just a girl dying practically every year, I mean. And would have continued that way in

[43:34] Jessica: front of their sons.

[43:35] Meg: Yeah, I didn't get into all of this, but I don't know if you remember this from the book. His oldest son, he was teaching him to be a horrible person and hate his mother. And it was.

[43:51] Jessica: How old was the boy?

[43:52] Meg: We're in 1991, so I think five or six. Yeah, yeah. Poor little thing.

[44:02] Travis: But. And these murders, too, were just so full of hate and rage, you know, because they're very, very brutal murders.

[44:09] Meg: Carolyn had offered a few alibis for Eric. Eric was asleep on her couch. No, he was eating breakfast at the diner down the street. None of that worked, and he was sentenced to 47 and a half years to life for Myra's murder. Al testified against him. See, Al didn't have much of a choice because the comforter that Marilyn's body

[44:33] Jessica: was found in was Al's comforter.

[44:36] Meg: So, you know, he had to kind

[44:39] Jessica: of complain about all that. That was a non negotiable for El.

[44:43] Meg: Erik struck a deal pleading guilty to Marilyn's murder in exchange for his mother being spared prosecution. That's an interesting wrinkle.

[44:54] Jessica: Very.

[44:55] Meg: Carolyn said at the time, quote, eric doesn't have a mean bone in his body. I know. I'm really good. While the FBI quantified Eric as a

[45:05] Jessica: sexually sadistic serial killer, no doubt mean bones present.

[45:11] Travis: Now, if I remember correctly, too, and you may know better than me, but if I'm right, I don't believe that Carolyn was fired.

[45:20] Meg: She was not fired.

[45:22] Jessica: Get out of town.

[45:24] Travis: She kept her job, Kevin.

[45:26] Jessica: What? Well, what did she have on whom? That's the thing. She got in. She had to know where some other bodies were buried.

[45:33] Meg: I ask you about that. I mean, doesn't that. That sounds crazy to me? Not just because. Absolutely crazy of her involvement in Eric. I mean, obviously she was lying about the alibis, and so now that's, like, on record.

[45:47] Travis: Well, you know, if they had nothing on her criminally, I mean, outright criminally, you know, which I'm sure they had to have something, but if it's just, you know, you're an awful mother, that's not a crime.

[45:57] Meg: Right, right. But to lie under oath.

[46:00] Travis: If they couldn't prove that she was tampering, you know, as the book says, tampering with all this other evidence, Was she? We all think so. But if they couldn't prove it, okay, and now you got a whole union behind her. What's gonna happen, right? I don't know.

[46:13] Meg: Okay, so unions would be helpful in this situation.

[46:16] Jessica: So even though she was a civilian working for the police, so what's her union?

[46:22] Travis: Well, I don't know what the union would be, but it would be. They have their own union.

[46:25] Jessica: They have their own union.

[46:26] Travis: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When it's just like these crazy teachers. You've got your New York City girls, you know, they have these rubber rooms for the teachers where teachers would get in trouble for all sorts of violations, go to work every day and sit in a room and read the newspaper and listen to the radio and get paid. But they're not allowed to be around any teacher, any students, which to me is crazy. Why don't you just fire them? Because the teachers union will not allow them to be fired. So they get paid for years, for decades. Okay. Without being fired. To go read the newspaper every day.

[47:03] Jessica: Are you kidding?

[47:05] Travis: Nope. They have to show up for work. They go, they sit. They call them rubber rooms. Look it up. Look it up. Do yourself a show on one of those. Because it's absolutely ridiculous and it's been going on for decades.

[47:17] Jessica: You know, Do Yourself a Show is now a show title. And like, Chef's Kiss, maybe that's the

[47:25] Meg: title for this episode.

[47:26] Travis: Do yourself, Do It Yourself A show.

[47:39] Jessica: So bone chilling in every way. Imagine. I mean, from. I mean, I'm now laughing Travis. But from Nazis to sexual psycho Killers. This story has it all. But, Travis, I mean, I have to ask, what else. You have to have something else to add to this. Like, now that you're an adult.

[48:03] Meg: It's got a lot in common.

[48:04] Jessica: Yeah.

[48:05] Meg: Except not. Thank God. Thank God.

[48:09] Travis: Yes, thank God. Thank God for the night.

[48:11] Jessica: I mean, all that I can think of is that you both walked in the door for boys. Like, I have this visual, like, these two kids walking in the door for boys.

[48:18] Travis: That's a good title of a book. I like that.

[48:20] Jessica: You may have it.

[48:21] Travis: Yes.

[48:21] Jessica: Okay. And they walked out very differently.

[48:25] Travis: Yeah. Well, again, just to remember back to Eric, obviously you would have never. If you had known him, you probably would have hated him because he was obnoxious, you know, but you would have never thought anything like this. This is just such crazy madness, you know? But then looking back again at what a lunatic he was as a kid, you know, torturing the teachers, a story I didn't mention. I remember he was. Actually, it's not my story. My brother was telling me one time, I was asking him about him, and the Spanish teacher had thrown him out because he had his ruler, you know, And I don't know what the teacher's name is, I can't remember. But he's like, so, Mrs. Whatever your name is, how do you like my ruler? How long and hard it is? No, you know, you like my wood, you know, my wooden ruler. You know, things like this that he would say. You know, we're talking seventh, eighth, ninth grade, maybe 11 to 14. Right? Is that when you're in junior high school? Yeah, that's about it. Right? 11 to 14, things like that. I mean, he, you know, he wasn't a bad looking kid. He was crazy. Fun crazy. Again. And back to what I was saying. Not so much comedically as much as his antics. Very high strung, nutty loudmouth, very obnoxious. And of course, that entertained us as boys. We found that to be very entertaining. But I never hung out with him outside of. I never hung out with him at all. I mean, outside of school. We had our group and he was off to wherever it was that he was. I don't even remember. You say you went to Julia Richmond. I don't remember him being in Julia Richmond, but obviously he was because he graduated from there, so.

[49:55] Meg: Right. I mean, maybe he wasn't showing up that often because he was commuting from Queens because he was living with a pedophile.

[50:01] Travis: Oh, it's very possible he didn't go home.

[50:03] Jessica: He was otherwise occupied. Thank you.

[50:05] Meg: Yeah. That's so much for all of your insight on this, because it's just another Yorkville story.

[50:12] Jessica: Well, you add a layer to understanding who he was specifically and how what that journey is from mildly fucked up kid to what he became.

[50:24] Travis: Oh, absolutely. I mean, the kid.

[50:26] Jessica: And it's heartbreaking for everybody.

[50:28] Travis: Tragic, Absolutely tragic. Those poor girls, those poor, you know, whatever happened to his sons, who knows? But you don't come out of that well. So, you know, we're always talking about the neighborhood, right? Yorkville, New York City, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, on Friday, March 1st of this year, a neighborhood legend, Big George Rodriguez, passed away after a nasty bout of pneumonia and three weeks in rehab. He had just turned 80 on Valentine's Day. And to many of us from Yorkville, he was known as Big George. Not so much because he was a particularly large man, but because his son was a junior and known as Little George. Which is kind of funny just because Little George, who's now a retired FDNY firefighter, ended up growing up to be bigger than Big George, you know. But regardless of physical size, Big George did cast a big shadow in this neighborhood. As my dear friend Marie Stone said when I told her of his passing, he was such a Yorkville icon and a staple of the neighborhood, and she was right. To me and poor kids like me, he was an inspiration and proof that a regular, uneducated, working class guy, through hard work and determination, could make a very good name for himself, you know, in a fairly honest manner. He was loud, boisterous and absolutely hilarious. He was the regular highlight to anyone's night out and any one of the usual Upper east side haunts such as the wicked Wolf, Ryan's daughter, Fitzgerald's pub, or even his own Mr. G's, which resided on Frist Avenue between 83rd and 84th street back in the 70s. And now, you know, you girls obviously probably didn't know him, but I guarantee that for every all of your listeners who didn't, if you never crossed paths or noticed George's hearty laugh at the bar, there's a very good chance you would have at some time had your head under a building's roof that he had installed or maybe spilled beer onto a pub's floor that he had also installed. It's also very possible you may have even lived in one of the three buildings that George owned, either here in Yorkville or up in Spanish Harlem. Yeah, for so many of us in the old neighborhood, George Rodriguez was a known name, a larger than life figure, you might even say he was the last of a dying breed. A man of less than humble beginnings who was able to maneuver himself through all the obstacles the island of Manhattan could throw at him. You know, during the 60s, 70s, and 80s, a very generous, decent man who not only did good for himself, but also did good by everyone that was in his orbit. George, our beloved George leaves behind his wife, Helen, his daughter Lisa, his son, little George, four grandchildren and four great grandchildren. And I'd just like to say goodbye, Big George. You will be remembered and missed by all of us who had the honor of knowing you. And I wish you girls could have met him because you would have absolutely loved him. You would have, you know.

[53:37] Meg: Thank you so much for Beautiful.

[53:39] Jessica: Yes, he sounds like a treat.

[53:43] Travis: He was. He was, you know, King George.

[53:46] Jessica: Oh, it.