[00:16] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the 80s. I am Meg.

[00:19] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1982. We got through middle school and high school together here in New York City. We.

[00:28] Meg: Where we still live and where we podcast about New York city in the 80s. I do ripped from the headlines and

[00:34] Jessica: I do pop culture.

[00:36] Meg: Wasn't it so fun to hang out with Jennifer?

[00:39] Jessica: Oh, my God, yes. That was so much fun. Like a delight. She was a delightful woman.

[00:43] Meg: And you know what I was thinking about? We just met. It was just so easy, the camaraderie.

[00:49] Jessica: You know, you're right. We did have a conversation before recording today about the long list of crappy shit people that we know.

[00:59] Meg: Oh, yeah. I'm talking mostly about how we all got along so well. Oh, well, I mean, she's obviously, she's a quality person, but also she's a quality person who likes us.

[01:10] Jessica: She's. Isn't that synonymous? Quality and liking us? I'm gonna go with. No. That's. That's. I'm saying that that is a standard.

[01:22] Meg: Okay?

[01:23] Jessica: If you like us, you're a quality person. If you're a quality person, you like us. That's the MA mathematical equation.

[01:28] Meg: Okay. We heard from one of our listeners, who will be anonymous, if that's okay. Had lots of things to say about all kinds of things, but. So I'm just going to drip them into the podcast here and there. But this one in particular we will start with finally listening to the Robert Chambers Jennifer Levin episodes. You guys did great. I remember it so well because my uncle was Robert Chambers, English teacher at York Prep, and he used to tutor him in my uncle's apartment on East 87th Street. During that time, his apartment was robbed twice, I believe, and they took his new vcr. And my uncle was sure Chambers was behind it. Then the horrible Jennifer Levin killing took place. We were not all that surprised. From what I heard, Chambers was very, very troubled.

[02:20] Jessica: Yeah, I think he was.

[02:23] Meg: And then he.

[02:24] Jessica: Oh, that's really interesting.

[02:25] Meg: And then he went on to say he. He was. Is clearly very troubled, to say the least. My uncle knew that, but he also didn't think he was a threat to him or his property. But I think Chambers got worse as time went on. And my recollection is that he had a drug problem. Yes, he did had a drug problem. But I think that's also interesting that, like, you know, they walk amongst us as we discussed that people who are threats, you just. You kind of give them a lot of allowances.

[02:54] Jessica: Well, I think you can't. When you go through life assuming that people are a threat. Right. Like, that's pretty sad way to live.

[03:02] Meg: Right.

[03:02] Jessica: So opening your home, opening your life to someone. Yeah. I mean, you have to do that or else you're just going to live hiding under the couch. However, tutoring snot nosed kids in your own home. Yeah, I think that's something that. Well, also.

[03:19] Meg: How bold of Robert Chambers. Yeah, but that's tough to steal. Like under. But that's.

[03:25] Jessica: Isn't that like addicts, like people, like they. You steal from anybody, any, if you see it, you're gonna go get it

[03:31] Meg: even trying and assume that someone else get blamed for it.

[03:33] Jessica: Yeah. And I mean, and I was just gonna say, look, assuming that I can climb into the psychosis that is Robert Chambers is not possible. Troubled people who take the drugs operate. If it's there, they'll take it to.

[03:57] Meg: We've talked a little bit about our regular hangouts.

[04:02] Jessica: Yes, we have.

[04:03] Meg: We're in the 80s in particular. And if we were going to talk about like, I mean, I had a bar that I hung out at in the 90s when I moved back to New York, but I don't really want to get into that. Instead I want to ask you, was there a big, A New York place where you dreamt of being a regular? Kind of like Cheers or something? Like, did you hear about a place where you're like, oh, if only I could have been a regular at, well,

[04:32] Jessica: a place that was in New York at the time or like a fantasy of fantasy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a nightclub and in the top of the Chrysler Building called the Cloud Club. That would have been, ooh, fabulous.

[04:51] Meg: It does sound fabulous. Why isn't there a place now? Is there?

[04:54] Jessica: I don't. I think they tried to resurrect it, but it did not happen. But it's very much in keeping with my love for the Carlisle and the Mark Hotel bar and that kind of stuff. But yeah, the Cloud Club.

[05:08] Meg: Okay, well that sets the stage a little bit. This story was suggested to me by our listener, John. Thank you, John. Okay, my sources are New York Magazine, New York Times. At 11am on Saturday, September 29, 1984, Mary Bell showed up for work at 340 E. 80th St. Between First and Second Avenues. She was the longtime housekeeper of Mike Malkin, who lived in apartment 18F. Mary, who was 57, tended to Mike, who is 50, and his boxer Buster in his one bedroom apartment, who five hours a day, six days a week. It's a Lot of help.

[05:52] Jessica: That's quite a lot of help.

[05:54] Meg: Each morning she would put her key in the lock and wait a bit for Buster to come running to the door. It's me, Buster. It's Mommy. I'm here. But on this Saturday morning, Mary was stopped in the lobby by George the doorman. A couple of workmen had shown up to fix Mike's terrace, but no one was home and they didn't want to encounter Buster on their own. So they were waiting in the lobby for Mary or someone to hold the dog. Mary said she'd be happy to take Buster out. They sometimes walked over to Gracie Mansion and played with Archie, Ed Koch's chef's dog.

[06:32] Jessica: Cute.

[06:34] Meg: When she put her key in the lock, it stuck. Something was jammed. So she knocked on the neighbor's door, went out on their terrace and managed to climb onto Mike's Terrace, 18 floors above the street level.

[06:49] Jessica: Good God, Mary. Jesus, Mary. That's commitment.

[06:54] Meg: Seriously. His terrace door was unlocked and Mary slipped inside. There she found the body of Mike Malkin slumped in his entryway. Buster didn't seem to realize that Mike was dead. He was just eager to go out. The Times reported that Mike had been shot twice. Once in the shoulder and once in the side. Sergeant o' Donnell told the newspaper that there were no signs of forced entry or ransacking and that no weapons weapon was found. He described Mike Malkin as, quote, a real estate owner who had been trained as a lawyer but was not practicing. But the Fords, Rockefellers, Biddles, Hearsts, Paley's and Kennedys and all their friends knew him as the surrogate father of a whole generation of east coast preppies.

[07:51] Jessica: Really?

[07:52] Meg: In the mid-60s, Mike Malkin's bar, which was called Mike Mulkins on East 79th between 1st and 2nd, was the place to be. Quote, debutantes in strapless tool ditched their chaperones and stole away to the East 79th street hangout. 15 year olds from Park Avenue and Greenwich slipped in for a ritual. First slo gin fizz preppies left Bay Head Yacht Club dances to drive the 90 minutes to New York, then cooled their top ciders on the steamy August sidewalk waiting to get into the place. That's from a New York magazine article that was written in the 80s.

[08:36] Jessica: They cooled their topsiders on the steamy sidewalks. Continue.

[08:45] Meg: Okay. The Beatles, Mick Jagger, James Taylor and Joni Mitchell had been spotted there. The decor was standard of the time. So we're in the 60s. Red carpet, red tablecloths, red candles. What made it Stand out was Malkin himself. He was the consummate host. Every night was a party at Malkin's. Mike grew up in the Bronx, went to Horace Mann and then to Penn. He tried a few different paths after school. Acting, the law, the record business. But it wasn't until he worked as a singing waiter at Frey's bar near Bloomingdale's that he found his calling. He wasn't a great piano player or singer, but he was a fantastic showman. And with his energy and personality, he created a fabulous scene. He was a wild storyteller, never letting the truth stand in his way. So no one knew for sure how he got the money to open Malkins. Now, just so you know, the kids who are coming to this place, they're like. Just to give it some sort of context, they're the kids of the Swans, Right? Yeah. And people know who we're talking about, right?

[10:02] Jessica: I hope they do. I mean, we've talked about Truman Capote on this, right?

[10:06] Meg: And right now food is happening and. Yeah, okay. Which we should probably talk about at some point. But anyway, so these are their kids. He told people the Rockefellers sponsored him, but that was refuted by the actual Rockefellers. Years later, the Yale Daily News called him the city's only genteel Ivy League barman. Mike was enamored of the famed stork Club on 53rd Street. The owner.

[10:37] Jessica: I know that actually right now you are looking. See that stork? That's a bud vase.

[10:42] Meg: Right now I do.

[10:43] Jessica: So I. I have collected. What do I have? I have a. An ashtray, a bud vase, and you have a coaster. Coasters, Correct.

[10:52] Meg: Which is why I asked you that original question, that engagement question. I was thinking Storkle, but I mean, you said what the Carlisle. I mean, you gave great examples that are in that kind of.

[11:04] Jessica: The Stork Club and the Cloud Club were shoulder to shoulder in the firmament of.

[11:10] Meg: Right in 21. And yes, the owner of the Stork Club, Sherman Billingsley, would say, quote, we're not selling liquor, we're not selling food. We're selling hospitality and graciousness. Malkins became the place where the children of the regulars at the Stork Club were, would go. Some remember being served at 12 years old.

[11:35] Jessica: Yep, sounds familiar.

[11:36] Meg: And Mike was on the floor every night. The place was regularly packed and they had a line with a two hour wait to get in. Boarding school kids would show up with their suitcases on Friday nights, party for two days, brunch on Sunday, and head back to School without crossing paths with their Upper east side parents.

[11:59] Jessica: That's impressive.

[12:00] Meg: I know. According to Edsel Ford ii, quote, you went there because you knew you'd run into your friends. Or if they weren't your friends, when you got there, they were by the time you left. Mike Malkin was a father to more prep school kids than any other man I ever knew in my entire life. If you got liquored up enough in his bar, you'd go and tell him all your problems. He was the most charismatic man I have ever known in my entire life. Wow, Said another regular Quote. When he put his arm around you and said, how you doing, Chris? That was it. That was everything. You were the most important person in the world. Now, Alicia Hollinger, on the other hand, had a darker take. Quote. It was teenage decadence to the fullest. It was 13 year olds in designer jeans and Gucci belts and fur jackets. It was free drinks for the girls to attract the boys who would be fed quaaludes by Malkin. Malkin helped take away our innocence and was responsible for many a loss of virginity.

[13:08] Jessica: Well, that sounds more accurate to me than the rosy hued reminiscences of the Holden Caulfields of the time.

[13:19] Meg: So Malkin's opened in 1965 when Mike was 30, and for five years it was hat. But by the early 70s, pot was in and booze was out and the kids were into discos and singles bars. Malkin struggled and closed and opened again and then closed for good. The teenagers he'd catered to had grown up and inherited their wealth, and some invited him to their weddings, but few dropped by the bar anymore.

[13:52] Jessica: But I thought the bar was gone.

[13:54] Meg: That's why it closed. Jessica. Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[13:58] Jessica: All right, fine. Chronology. Sorry.

[14:01] Meg: As he entered the 80s, Malkin hung up his bar shoes and got into real estate. He was a wealthy, beloved minor celebrity on the Upper east side.

[14:11] Jessica: Can I ask you a question?

[14:12] Meg: Yes.

[14:13] Jessica: What did he do in the 70s? So he closed in 70.

[14:16] Meg: He closed in 70 and reopened and closed again. So the 70s were about him kind of struggling to keep the bar going and couldn't quite figure it out. And then finally he was like, eh. By the time 1980 rolled around, he was no longer in the bar game.

[14:33] Jessica: So he's 45 and done okay.

[14:35] Meg: Yeah, but he's rich and everybody knows who he is. He could walk into any bar on the Upper east side and people would be like, oh, my God, it's Mike Malkin. And yet he would have dinner regularly at the wicked Wolf at 75th and 1st.

[14:51] Jessica: Okay.

[14:52] Meg: But somewhere along the way, Mike had started doing drugs. People had known him as a Scotchman, but at some point, he transitioned to cocaine and his addiction sapped him of his health and wealth. In the months before his murder, he made a fortune in real estate, but had received frequent eviction notices for non payment of rent. He shriveled up to barely a hundred pounds.

[15:18] Jessica: Oh, my God.

[15:20] Meg: And he had another addiction that cost him hookers. George the doorman reported that after Mary would clock out each evening, young men would start showing up. They were in and out of his apartment all night long. Mike would tell George to have them wait in the lobby if there was already a few up there. And they tag team out and in. So it really was an addiction. George said he'd seen 300 different young men in three years.

[15:53] Jessica: Oh, my God. I mean, that's pricey. Yeah, it costs a lot of money.

[16:00] Meg: I mean, he just spiraled.

[16:03] Jessica: Yeah, but I mean, it's. I mean, I don't. I'm not laughing at his, at his bad life choices, or his bad fortune, but I mean, could you have anything more out of central casting like hookers and blow? That's how he went down, literally.

[16:21] Meg: On Friday night, September 28, 1984, at about 10:00pm, two quote, Spanish looking. Thank you, New York Times. In 1984, men in their early 20s went up to Mike's 18th floor apartment. A little later, one of them came down to walk Buster. George didn't see the men leave for good, but they could have taken the back way out.

[16:46] Jessica: There are so many jokes I know. Okay, fine, fine.

[16:51] Meg: Police found drugs in the apartment and money on Mike's body after he'd been shot. Mike had apparently tried to double lock his door and jammed it before he collapsed. So that's why Mary couldn't get in. After Mike's death, Buster went to live with Mary.

[17:07] Jessica: No. Well, thank God. I have to admit, when you started the story, I was like, if Buster gets it, I'm not going to be able to handle this. But Buster was fine. Yeah.

[17:17] Meg: After Malkin's murder. Alicia Hollinger, remember?

[17:20] Jessica: Yes, yes.

[17:21] Meg: Said it's tragic, but it certainly came as no surprise. I just hope that all the kids who were his regulars survive a little longer.

[17:31] Jessica: Ooh, that's like chilling. That gave me like a. Alicia. What's Alicia doing? I hope she's writing or.

[17:38] Meg: Well, the quotes come from Madame Bolmo. She read the article in New York Magazine and then she wrote in for the next Edition to say. I have something to say. Because all these guys are saying, oh, it's so wonderful to hang out at Mike Malkin's. And she's like, I. I have a different perspective, guys. So she wasn't actually quoted in the article. She wrote a letter to the editor.

[18:05] Jessica: And who killed him?

[18:07] Meg: Who knows?

[18:08] Jessica: Unsolved mystery.

[18:09] Meg: Unsolved. I will guess. I mean, I think, you know, there are tons of rumors. There were tons of rumors that it was mob related. I don't think so.

[18:22] Jessica: Well, I. When you were saying, you know, no one knows how he got the money for the bar, I was. That's where my mind.

[18:28] Meg: Sure. But it had long been closed.

[18:31] Jessica: It was so dissipated, you know, and it was just such a mess, like. But what's weird is that no one took the money. No one didn't. So no one took anything.

[18:42] Meg: No, no one took anything.

[18:44] Jessica: It was just. You're bang, bang, you're dead.

[18:46] Meg: Yeah. So I don't think he was ripped off by those guys. I think he pissed them off.

[18:54] Jessica: Yeah. I have a theory that he was in some way roughing up the boys. And.

[19:01] Meg: And they were like, you or they're bang, bang and they're out.

[19:05] Jessica: Yeah. They're managers, they're pimp. Anyone, anyone connected with the boys could have been like.

[19:11] Meg: Yeah, but I don't think I. I don't think it was planned really. Really. They were up there for a long time. If it had been planned, they wouldn't have been seen by the doorman and walk the dog. You don't, you don't go to kill somebody and hang out for a long time and then kill them after the doorman has seen your face. That's not what happens. What happens is you go there not expecting to kill him. You walk the dog. Then you're in the apartment and the guy goes, you know, pisses you off in some way. And it's a crime of like, get the. Away from me. And then you escape.

[19:48] Jessica: I'm looking for a third gunman.

[19:50] Meg: Well, there were two men up there. What do you mean, third gun? Why?

[19:53] Jessica: I don't know. Because it's, It's. You're making it up out of nowhere.

[19:57] Meg: Why?

[19:58] Jessica: Because there's no third person I want there to be. Just deal with what you got. I can't. It's a problem I have in life. Well, that is a very tragic tale. And the fact that Mike withered away to £100, that seems, you know, like.

[20:19] Meg: And he found his passion when he was in his 30s, but he lost it in his 40s, and then he just gave up.

[20:27] Jessica: Cocaine is a powerful drug. I've said that many times on this podcast. And yet again, it'll take away your ambition, kids.

[20:36] Meg: Yeah, and he died with assets that he left to his mother so he could pay his rent. He just didn't. I mean, he just literally gave up.

[20:45] Jessica: Yeah, he was just. Buster didn't know he was dead. Interesting.

[20:51] Meg: Or didn't act like he knew. That's what Mary said that he wasn't like, ooh, Mike, are you okay?

[20:59] Jessica: Well, that might also say something about Mike's character. Hmm.

[21:04] Meg: Honestly, from the article, it's conjecture. He spent most of his time with Mary.

[21:10] Jessica: Case closed.

[21:12] Meg: Yeah, but she really liked him, by the way. I didn't include those quotes. She. She said really lovely things about him. I mean, thank God she liked him. She was there five hours a day, six days a week.

[21:21] Jessica: I mean, she. I mean, think about it. That's another thing, is that he's in this unbelievable downward spiral. He's killing himself. He's down to, like, £100 of withered nothingness, and Mary's just coming in and out, no comment. Well, just doing her thing.

[21:41] Meg: And when people referred to him. Okay, here's an interesting thing that the article started to talk about. There were rumors that he was going to die any day and that that apartment would become available. And so people were whispering about who's gonna get that apartment? Because people wanted the apartment. And then he was murdered.

[22:01] Jessica: Did he own the apartment?

[22:02] Meg: I guess it was rent controlled.

[22:04] Jessica: Oh, oh, oh. It's that. Okay, look, there are a couple of different. We've discussed this before. Yeah, there are a couple of different ways that excitement over an apartment, but it was.

[22:12] Meg: It was valuable. He was in a valuable apartment. He was clearly dying in front of everybody. And so whispers started like, who's gonna get that place when he just keels over?

[22:25] Jessica: So who did?

[22:26] Meg: I don't know. But he didn't keel over. He was shot. So that was surprising. It did become available, but not the way that people thought it would. And when Mary talks about him, it's hilarious. She actually gets a little annoyed when people say things about him being, like, a bad guy or that he had bad habits or that he was a hermit or that he was, you know, on a downward spiral. She. She got her dander up a bit about that. She was like, that's ridiculous. You didn't know him. He was the most generous man I've ever known in my life.

[23:00] Jessica: See, nothing in this story adds up. I'M sticking with maybe there was.

[23:05] Meg: Oh my God. If you say a third person again, I'm really going to be angry because we have facts. You don't have to make them up.

[23:11] Jessica: No, I know.

[23:12] Meg: And don't annoy me right now.

[23:15] Jessica: Too late. And Mary does not seem to be a reliable witness.

[23:23] Meg: Well, she's the only witness, so we have to listen to what she says.

[23:26] Jessica: Well, no, if these other people. There are other people who are reporting that he was a wasted shell of a man who couldn't function. And if she's like, no, he was gratified.

[23:35] Meg: No, that's about perception. That's about what she considers. Okay, she certainly wasn't around. He wasn't bringing the men in when she was there. He was waiting for her to leave

[23:44] Jessica: before he brought those. But he brought him down to nothing. So she's watching this guy.

[23:48] Meg: Like apparently he would tell people on the street he was on a diet.

[23:57] Jessica: I'm just. He was.

[24:01] Meg: And people.

[24:02] Jessica: He wasn't eating, I guess.

[24:04] Meg: And people didn't believe him because they thought his apartment would be available anyway. This is like the sad, sad, tragic story of Mike Malkin I, who once, once upon a time. Can't you picture Mike Malkins with all the red?

[24:17] Jessica: I didn't see this going in this direction at all. So yes. When you started with like lines around the block and the, the, the, the, what are they called? The swanlets. What, what do you call. If it's a goose, it's a gosling. What are the swan babies called?

[24:34] Meg: A cygnet.

[24:35] Jessica: Oh, duh.

[24:37] Meg: Don't you love how I said that with such authority?

[24:39] Jessica: Well, yes. I won't reveal your secrets. That you looked it up on Google during that one second break. Yes, you are right. A signet with a C Y.

[24:54] Meg: Uh huh. And those signets were our parents age? No. If they were hanging out in the 60s. Okay, so they're a little younger than our parents. My parents are 1941. So they're 25.

[25:07] Jessica: They were a little. Yeah, they were a little old.

[25:09] Meg: So they're like they're 10 years older.

[25:11] Jessica: They were the younger. The significantly younger.

[25:14] Meg: They babysat our parents, babysat the signet.

[25:17] Jessica: There you go. We had to make that connection. Well, yes. My parents came in from Brooklyn to hang out with the Rothschilds. You know when we finally do talk about the Swans and the legacy of

[25:39] Meg: the Swans, which we did on an episode.

[25:42] Jessica: Well, you just said that you wanted we should do more.

[25:45] Meg: Oh, just because Feud is happening right now.

[25:47] Jessica: Right. So when we do more of that, you know, we talk sometimes on the podcast about how Gen X is the way that it is because of the, you know, sort of, let's hope, benign neglect of parents who are, you know, divorces were happening and, you know, moms working and latchkey kids and all that stuff. But these kids were really neglected. Like, they're really not looked after. And so what was really most striking for me is that all of these young boys who went to the bar were saying that he was like the father they didn't have.

[26:26] Meg: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[26:27] Jessica: Which is, you know, wonder what went on behind the bar at.

[26:34] Meg: They did. I don't know what was happening in the.

[26:36] Jessica: I mean, he was giving them Quaaludes. Wait a minute. He was giving them Quaaludes?

[26:40] Meg: Yeah.

[26:41] Jessica: She knows what was happening.

[26:42] Meg: Alicia suggested that it was not good clean fun. And in the 70s, supposedly he was a Scotch man when he was at his best, but he was not at his best in the 70s when the bar started flailing a bit. And in one or two of like, the attempts to keep it open, there were stories about like, bartenders who would quit because they were being sexually harassed.

[27:11] Jessica: And it all comes together. I don't have an engagement question for you.

[27:28] Meg: Okay.

[27:28] Jessica: Rather, I will say, I honor you today, Meg, by talking about the theater. Acting. So I was thinking about 80s theater, and I keep returning to all of the experimental theater that we've talked about and the performance artists. A couple of things came up that I hadn't thought about, and I think it's because I'm a New York resident. But when was the last time you used tkts?

[28:01] Meg: Oh, it's been a while.

[28:02] Jessica: Right. So the Theater Development Fund actually started, I believe in 1969 as a way to pump money into the arts. And theater definitely benefited from this. And one of the ways that the Theater Development Fund brought theater to people and made things more accessible was these half price tickets you could line up and get. And you still can.

[28:30] Meg: Yeah.

[28:30] Jessica: Which, by the way, I was like, why am I not doing this? Like, there's something wrong with me. So I went to their website and I found a wonderful article that I absolutely love called Notes on My Mother's Theater. Going by someone who is our age who talked about his mom. Wait, why are you giving me that?

[28:51] Meg: I'm just curious who it was.

[28:53] Jessica: Andy Bragan.

[28:55] Meg: I know Andy Bragan.

[28:56] Jessica: Oh, Bragan.

[28:57] Meg: Okay.

[28:57] Jessica: Well, he's right.

[28:57] Meg: He's a playwright.

[28:58] Jessica: Okay. He wrote a great article.

[29:00] Meg: I know him very well.

[29:01] Jessica: Is he nice?

[29:01] Meg: He's wonderful.

[29:02] Jessica: Well, then I'm so happy that we're giving him a plug.

[29:05] Meg: And he did a play. He wrote a play about his mother

[29:08] Jessica: that mentions it in here.

[29:10] Meg: Absolutely heartbreaking.

[29:11] Jessica: Yes. She had Alzheimer's and she died.

[29:15] Meg: He grew up in the East Village, just a few blocks from where I lived in the 90s.

[29:20] Jessica: Well, she escaped a terrible childhood upbringing, came to New York. Her second husband was Andy's dad.

[29:29] Meg: Okay.

[29:30] Jessica: And so she took Andy to the theater, was her obsession. And she took him to every experimental theater, every, I guess, experimental theater group, as well as, you know, mainstream productions. He talked about places like the Living Theater. She was not a fan. Talks about La Mama another. I actually went to La Mama once.

[29:56] Meg: Didn't you see me at La Mama?

[29:58] Jessica: I guess not. That might have been the once. I don't know. And so he just goes through a lot of it and talks about how important it was to forging his identity. And now that you've told me that not only does he indeed write, but he's a pal of yours. Okay. So he made it anyway in reading this article, and it's in a section of tdf.org so you can look it up. Very, very charming. And it's a great photo of him with his mom.

[30:30] Meg: Oh, that's wonderful.

[30:31] Jessica: In the 70s sometime. So I started looking at all kinds of really experimental stuff. And I was like, oh, I'm going to be so cool. I'm going to be so cool. Talking about. About which I know very little, let's be honest. It's not my scene, it's your scene. But I was like, I'm going to find some great nugget. Well, I did. What I found is a review. And this review brought out a whole bunch of other factoids that brought me so much joy. I can't wait to share it with you.

[31:01] Meg: Okay. I'm bracing myself.

[31:03] Jessica: You should. In the 70s and 80s, New York was as it is now, but in a different way, a laboratory for theater. And all kinds of different people were doing different things. And it was the time of the rise of the monologist. And you had Eric Bogosian and Spalding Gray and people like that doing their thing. I think I would imagine that there would have been a little bit of question about, like, the validity of the criticism, because actors and writers were really starting to take control because they were creating their own spaces and doing their own thing and for their own audiences. So I wonder what that's like. So then I find this review. This is a review written in 1983 by Frank Rich.

[31:51] Meg: Oh, no.

[31:52] Jessica: Now he was known as the butcher of Broadway. Frank Rich did not like a lot of theater.

[32:01] Meg: He had no business in the East Village, that's for sure.

[32:04] Jessica: Definitely not. So, Frank Rich, not known for liking a lot of things and cruel. Yes. However, his politics I think you would agree with. He was known and still is, as an extremely left leaning person and a real. A champion of the people. But not if they're on stage. So I found this review from 1983 of a play called Moose Murders. That's not as in the dessert, that's as in the Anna Mule. Okay, okay.

[32:42] Meg: Where did it, where was it?

[32:43] Jessica: It was at the Eugene O' Neill Theater, 1983.

[32:46] Meg: So that's on Broadway.

[32:47] Jessica: Yes.

[32:48] Meg: Oh, okay.

[32:49] Jessica: And this review came out February 23rd of 83. And I'm going to share this with you and then there's some fun facts afterwards, but if you need to know who I am in any way, not that you do, but if you did, the level of hilarity that I gleaned from this review says it all. I couldn't love it more. Okay, I can imagine. Here we go. You are so naughty. From now on, there will always be two groups of theatergoers in this world. Those who have seen Moose Murders and those who have not. Those of us who've witnessed the play that opened at the Eugene o' Neill Theater last night will undoubtedly hold periodic reunions in the noble tradition of survivors of the Titanic. Tears and booze will flow in equal measure and there will be a prize awarded to the bearer of the most outstanding antlers. As for those theatergoers who miss Moose Murders, well, they just don't wait. A visit to Moose Murders is what will separate the connoisseurs of Broadway disaster from mere dilettantes for many moons to come. The play begins in the exact manner of whodunit itself, one of the season's drearier offerings. Though at the time of its opening we didn't realize how relatively civilized it was. There's a loud thunderclap and the curtain rises to reveal an elaborate two level dark wood set. Amusingly designed by Marjorie Bradley Kellogg, the set represents a lodge in the Adirondacks and is profusely decorated with the requisite stuffed moose heads. Though the heads may be hunting trophies, one cannot rule out the possibility that these particular moose committed suicide shortly after being shown the script that trades on their good name. The first human characters we meet, if human is the right word, are the quote, singing keens, the scantily clad snooks keen, bumps her backside in the audience's face and sings Jeepers Creepers in an aggressively off key screech while her blind husband Howie pounds away on an electric hand organ. Howie's plug is soon mercifully pulled by the lodge's beefy middle aged caretaker, Joe Buffalo Dance, who wears Indian war paint and braids, but who speaks in an Irish brogue. This loathsome trio is quickly joined by a whole crowd of unappetizing clowns.

[35:36] Meg: Is it a comedy?

[35:37] Jessica: No. The wealthy Hedda Holloway, the lodge's new owner. It's like mousetrap. That's what they're trying to do. The wealthy Hedda Holloway, the Lodge's new owner, arrives with her husband Sidney, a heavily bandaged quadriplegic who is confined to a wheelchair and who is accurately described as, quote, that fetid roll of gauze. Sidney's attendant nurse Dagmar wears revealing black satin, barks in Nazi ease and likes to leave her patient out in the rain. The Holloway children include Stinky, a drug crazed hippie who wants to sleep with his mother, and Gay, a little girl in a party dress. Told that her father will always be, quote, a vegetable, Gay turns up her nose and replies, like a lima bean. Gross me out. She then breaks into a tap dance.

[36:31] Meg: What?

[36:32] Jessica: It gets worse. For much of Act 1, this ensemble stumbles about mumbling dialogue that as far as one can tell, is only improved by its inaudible ability. Just before intermission, Stinky breaks out a deck of cards to give the actors, if not the audience, something to do. The lights go out mid game and when they come up again, one of the characters has been murdered. Such is the comatose nature of the production that we're too busy trying to guess which stiff on stage is the victim to worry about guessing the culprit, even act one of Moose Murders is inadequate preparation for the ludicrous depths of Act 2. 2. I won't soon forget the spectacle of watching the mummified Sidney rise from his wheelchair to kick an intruder, unaccountably dressed in a moose costume in the groin. This particular fracas is topped by the play's final twist, in which Hedda serves her daughter, Gay, a little child, a poison laced vodka martini. As the girl collapses to the floor and dies in the midst of of another Shirley Temple esque Buck and Wing, her mother breaks into laughter and applause. The 10 actors trapped in this enterprise.

[37:45] Meg: The mother killed her child, yes.

[37:48] Jessica: The 10 actors trapped in this enterprise, a minority of them of professional caliber, will not be singled out here, I'm tempted to upbraid the author, director and producers of Moose Murders. But surely the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals will soon be after them. Paging the aspca. Moose Murders by Arthur Bicknell, directed by John Roach. Scenery by Marjorie Bradley Kellogg, lighting by Pat Collins. And then the cast.

[38:16] Meg: Okay, do we know these people?

[38:18] Jessica: Hedda Holloway, who murders her daughter, played by Holland Taylor.

[38:24] Meg: Oh, no.

[38:25] Jessica: And the little girl she kills, played by Mara Hubble. Now we're gonna have some 80s fun. Ready?

[38:33] Meg: Okay.

[38:33] Jessica: All right, we'll start with Mara Hubble. Oh, and by the way, the guy who played Sidney in the bandages, Dennis Florjak, the partner of the person who wrote and directed the play. Okay, so, all right, so Mara Hubble. I'm gonna give you a hint. It's not even a hint. I'm gonna tell you who she is. Mara Hubble will forever be burned into at least Gen X memories because she played Christina Crawford. Oh, my God. Mommie Dearest. No. He was the recipient of the legendary Faye Dunaway's no More Wire Hangers Shit fit.

[39:13] Meg: Okay, so was she the little girl or the teenager?

[39:16] Jessica: The little girl.

[39:17] Meg: The little.

[39:18] Jessica: And the little blonde, of course. Yes. So that's Mara Hubble. And she didn't really. She did a lot of small things afterwards, but I'm concerned.

[39:27] Meg: She was wonderful.

[39:28] Jessica: That this might have really done her some damage. Holland Taylor, she.

[39:34] Meg: That's her specialty. To be abused by a mother. I mean, she does it on film, she does it on stage.

[39:40] Jessica: If. Is that all that was being written at the time was horrible Mothers.

[39:45] Meg: Wow, that's so interesting.

[39:47] Jessica: Yes, exactly. This was the era of this.

[39:49] Meg: And you said, what is the year?

[39:50] Jessica: The mother's fault. 83.

[39:52] Meg: Beginning of. It's the Mother's fault. I'm so glad you're clocking it in 1983. I mean, I'm sorry, but weren't there, like, tons of amazing things on Broadway? Why are they making room for Moose Murders?

[40:04] Jessica: Well, hold on. Holland Taylor, for those who don't know. She is known by people of our. Of the current generation as well as ours. She played the professor in Legally Blonde. She was the mother on Two and a Half Men.

[40:22] Meg: She was.

[40:23] Jessica: And in 1980, she was the den mother on Bosom Buddies. Yes. Her best role. The best role ever. Ruth something.

[40:34] Meg: And she's the partner of Sarah Paulson.

[40:36] Jessica: Right. So this brings our entire conversation full circle because Sarah Paulson is frequently in Ryan Murphy work.

[40:45] Meg: Yes.

[40:45] Jessica: And she was Nurse Ratched in Ratchet. She was In American Horror Stories, she was in. She played Marcia Clark in whatever he did with the O.J. trial.

[40:55] Meg: And Frank Rich was trying to be Truman Capote.

[40:58] Jessica: Oh, girl, stop it. Yeah. Don't you think I'm willing to go there? I mean, he's funnier than Truman Capote. I mean, I was crying, laughing at the moment.

[41:07] Meg: I can tell. Yeah.

[41:09] Jessica: So I also was surprised to find out that Sarah Paulson is younger than us, but she just.

[41:15] Meg: By a little.

[41:16] Jessica: A little. But she and Holland Taylor, for those who don't know, are famously in a May December romance of 31 years. And Holland Taylor. You go, girl. You get yours.

[41:28] Meg: I follow both of them on Instagram.

[41:29] Jessica: Are they good on Instagram?

[41:31] Meg: Oh, my God, so much pda.

[41:33] Jessica: Yes, I've seen that. Now, if you're worried about what happened to Moose Murders, don't be.

[41:40] Meg: Okay.

[41:40] Jessica: So there is a tradition of films, and, I guess, plays that open as flops that become cult classics. Now, we know the Rocky Horror Picture show opened to no acclaim, and it wasn't until it was released as a midnight madness kind of show that it became what it is now known to be. Well, in 2013, Moose Murders was revived because it has become a cult classic. By who? By university theater groups. Okay, so it's a laugh.

[42:19] Meg: It's like how the play went wrong kind of thing.

[42:22] Jessica: Exactly.

[42:23] Meg: That is very joyful.

[42:25] Jessica: It is joyful. You know, And Frank Rich, whatever you may think of him, he's also. He knows what's good and what's funny. He became a producer. He produced Veep. He's done a whole bunch of stuff. He's no dope. Go find the Moose Murders. Encourage the high school and college theatrical folk that you know to do this. And I am now very, very committed to going to the Drama Bookshop and seeing if they have it.

[42:53] Meg: Let's do it. Oh, my God. Have you been to the drama bookshop lately?

[42:56] Jessica: No.

[42:56] Meg: It is so much fun.

[42:58] Jessica: I have seen photos. We should go.

[43:00] Meg: I go. I know you go on the regular because they have events, but it is really fun and it is an awesome destination.

[43:09] Jessica: Let's go. Let's go.

[43:21] Meg: So Andy Bragan's beautiful play about his mother, autobiographical play about his mother is called Notes on My Mother's Decline Noted. Yes. Shout out Andy Bragan.

[43:34] Jessica: So our tie in which we were just discussing is, I think, accurate. It's a little stretch.

[43:41] Meg: Well, Mike Mulkin was trying to bring back the Stork Club. And then in the 80s, if you waited long enough, Dorian's was very much a callback to Mike Malkin's in terms of vibe. I'm sure there's the equivalent somewhere here now in New York. I hope we get to it invited there. The point is, if you wait long enough, it'll all come back again, right?

[44:05] Jessica: And with despite or because of Frank Rich's pan of Moose Murders, Moose Murders has come back around now as a cult classic. So if you wait long enough, a tap dancing child killed by a poisoned martini while she does a buck and wing will come back around.

[44:26] Meg: Everything old is new again.

[44:28] Jessica: It.