[00:17] Meg: Welcome to Desperately Seeking the '80s. I am Meg.

[00:20] Jessica: And I am Jessica. And Meg and I have been friends since 1980, and we got through middle school and high school together here in New York City where we still live.

[00:31] Meg: And where we are currently podcasting about New York City in the 80s.

[00:36] Jessica: I cover pop culture.

[00:39] Meg: And I do ripped from the headlines. And I've got a good one for you today, Jessica.

[00:42] Jessica: Okay, I'm getting ready. Okay, before you even begin, is there a trigger warning today?

[00:50] Meg: No.

[00:51] Jessica: Oh, thank God.

[00:52] Meg: Absolutely not.

[00:54] Jessica: I'm so relieved.

[00:56] Meg: And before we get started, I just wanted to we've had some viewer feedback viewer a listener feedback that I thought you might be interested in.

[01:05] Jessica: Is it about me?

[01:07] Meg: Not specifically.

[01:08] Jessica: Boo.

[01:09] Meg: Our dear friend Ray, who we went to school with at the Nightingale Bamford School.

[01:15] Jessica: Yay Ray

[01:16] Meg: Ray has reached out to make sure that we know. Oh, by the way, you know, Ray has this gorgeous farm in Maine and is a bona fide farmer.

[01:27] Jessica: I've seen the photos, and they are exceptional. It looks idyllic.

[01:30] Meg: It really does. It looks like heaven with lambs and piggies and

[01:36] Jessica: Animals and flowers.

[01:41] Meg: But Ray wanted to make sure I got this through Facebook. Just dropping in to assure you that you missed absolutely nothing by avoiding Starlight Express, so just in case.

[01:55] Jessica: All right, well, thank you, Ray. I feel like all is right in my world now. I'm centered.

[02:04] Meg: Although I've got to say, I've been doing some research on Starlight Express. Oh, man, we could do a whole episode on Starlight Express.

[02:13] Jessica: Are you aware of the fact that Rockefeller Center is now the ice skating rink has been turned into a roller skating rink?

[02:20] Meg: Yes, I actually brought it up.

[02:21] Jessica: You did? Okay, well, it's nice to meet you. My name is Jessica, and I am.

[02:26] Meg: And I want to go roller skating.

[02:28] Jessica: I'm in. I'm totally in.

[02:30] Meg: Oh, my God, I'm so excited.

[02:31] Jessica: All right, clearly there's something wrong with me.

[02:34] Meg: It's okay. It's been a long week.

[02:36] Jessica: What a week?

[02:38] Meg: Yes. Okay, so shall we get started?

[02:41] Jessica: Please.

[02:43] Meg: Did you do Knickerbocker by any chance?

[02:46] Jessica: Thank God. No. When you guys were doing Knickerbocker, I was still at my hippie French bilingual school, so no.

[02:54] Meg: Well, Knickerbocker is a dance class for kids in the city. My kids did it, and when we were younger, it was sort of the guaranteed way to ultimately get invited to the Gold and Silver and all these Cotillion balls. Nowadays, those dances are much more inclusive, by the way. Like, everybody gets invited, but in our day, you had to either be on the committee or have a friend on the committee. And in order to be on the committee, you had to go to Knickerbocker. And so it was a kind of a to do.

[03:29] Jessica: The Gold and Silver was a charity ball that was the height of the junior preppy season, and it was usually at the Plaza Hotel. The Waldorf, actually. Oh, The Waldorf. Excuse me. And if you cared about things like that, it was a status thing.

[03:46] Meg: It was also just fun. I think if you cared about okay.

[03:50] Jessica: We can have different experiences.

[03:53] Meg: All right, so today's story yes. My sources are an A&E biography that I watched on YouTube. A 1987 article in McCall's magazine and a New York Post article in 2021, and another source that I'm not going to name right now because it gives the whole thing away.

[04:14] Jessica: Okay.

[04:15] Meg: All right. I think you're going to catch on pretty quickly.

[04:17] Jessica: Okay. Very excited.

[04:18] Meg: Sydney Biddle Barrows ancestors, nice, on both her father and her mother's side, came to America on the Mayflower, and she is descended from the distinguished and wealthy Philadelphia Biddles. But she grew up in a modest home with a single mother in Hopewell, New Jersey. And while her wealthy grandfathers spent most of their inherited money, she did enjoy some of the trappings of Oldwell. Her grandparents were able to send her to Stoneleigh-Burnham School. Have you ever heard of that?

[04:55] Jessica: No.

[04:55] Meg: It's an all girls boarding school in Greenfield, Massachusetts. She was actually expelled for sneaking off campus to meet a boy, so she ended up graduating from public school. And she made her debut that season in New York City because she was a descendant of people from the Mayflower.

[05:16] Jessica: Having a debut is so out of fashion now. I don't think people who are what I'm just going to casually refer to as normal human beings know exactly what that means. Do you want to quickly explain

[05:31] Meg: When you're introduced to society and there's a series of parties that you go to, that's what Metropolitan is about. That movie the season where everybody's going to the different parties and going to the different balls, you were part of.

[05:45] Jessica: A group of young women copying the British, coming into society and like, meeting the Queen, and you had to be all in a white dress. If you watch Bridgerton, you'll know that what we're talking about is actually what Lady Eloise really didn't want to do at the opening of this season.

[06:04] Meg: So there was a version of that in New York. And so she did that. She was presented to society at a ball held in the Grand Ballroom at The Plaza Hotel. And shortly after that, she enrolled at FIT, the Fashion Institute of Technology, where she majored in fashion merchandising. And after that, she went on to work at Abraham & Straus.

[06:29] Jessica: Interesting.

[06:30] Meg: Remember that place?

[06:31] Jessica: I certainly do. Continue.

[06:34] Meg: And she became a buyer for The Cutting Edge.

[06:37] Jessica: What was that?

[06:37] Meg: It was like a middleman between the stores and the manufacturers. But she was fired from The Cutting Edge when she refused to work for a man who she suspected of taking kickbacks.

[06:51] Jessica: She had principles.

[06:53] Meg: There's a little bit of moxie in this girl, which is part of her story, I think. When she was in the unemployment line. She met a girl named Gina, and they became friends. And when Sydney visited Gina's apartment, she noticed Gina's very expensive stereo. This is Sydney speaking. Quote "She didn't have any more money than I did, so I asked her where she got it from. She uncharacteristically wouldn't give the answer, but finally broke down and said, I answered the phones for an escort service." I said, "Oh, what's an escort service?" Gina filled Sydney in and also told her she made $50 a night. Now, Sydney was getting $150 a week from unemployment, so $50 a night sounded pretty good.

[07:49] Jessica: What year is this?

[07:50] Meg: 1978. Okay, so Sydney started answering phones for Gina's boss, Eddie. This is another quote from Sydney. "All the girls hated Eddie. He made them work seven nights a week." These are the sex workers "With no time off and virtually no social life. Not surprisingly, the girls came up with a stream of excuses why they wouldn't be available that night. In the three months that I was there," she was there answering the phones, "Some of the girls grandmothers must have died two or three times." So Sydney and Gina quit Eddie's escort service and started their own, Cachet. They had a business plan. Quote, "Despite the vast amounts of sleaziness and deceit in the escort industry, I believed it didn't have to be that way. I was sure I could run an agency that was successful, elegant, honest, and fun. I had seen enough mistakes to know what not to do, and I had no moral qualms. As I saw it, there was a sector of the economy crying out for the application of good management skills." They accepted credit cards and ran ads in newspapers. They offered health insurance, right? Quote "Other ads in places like Screw magazine and Backpage showed grainy pictures of a woman with her legs in a y shape with the headline, see you in my valley."

[09:26] Jessica: That's just a crime against copy.

[09:29] Meg: I need to find a copy of that. "But we designed this very spare, elegant looking ad saying New York's most trusted service". Cachet would only hire women who had another job: model, actress, writer, or who were in school. No career sex workers. And Sydney was very particular about how they dressed. Elegant dresses, high heels, stockings. No matter how hot it was, quote, "Dress like you're going to lunch at 21 with your grandfather" .Hot. "I always paid close attention to types of girls. I knew, for example, that I could use only a certain number of tall brunettes. Tall, busty blondes were another story. I could always have used more of them." The sex workers would take home 60% of the $125 an hour fee, which could add up to $3,000 a week in cash. They were only sent to the finest hotels in the city The Pierre, The Waldorf, and they were instructed to only have, quote, "Straight sex and oral sex. Period. End of story." And no condoms. Unless the client requested them.

[10:52] Jessica: Interesting.

[10:53] Meg: Yep. Sydney paints a rosy picture of Cachet. The women were happy. The men were nonviolent. In 1982, Gina decided to get out of the business, leaving Sydney in charge. Sydney set up an office in a residential building at 307 West 74th street. This is where the women would check in to get their assignments.

[11:17] Jessica: Okay, so that's between First and Second. Or Second and Third.

[11:21] Meg: I'll take your word for it.

[11:22] Jessica: Okay. I'm just getting a mental picture. Go ahead.

[11:26] Meg: I can definitely picture those blocks of row houses. And it also acted as a kind of green room. So it's where the women would hang out. But a guy who lived on the first floor got suspicious of all the comings and goings. He stole Cachet's trash from the garbage bags on the curb and handed it over to the landlord, who promptly called the police. The trash included notes detailing clients, hotels, times, amounts, and critiques. Quote "John is a big time movie producer. Too bad he doesn't have a big part."

[12:04] Jessica: Sassy sex workers.

[12:07] Meg: In 1984, police raided Cachet and arrested three sex workers who were there just hanging out watching TV. Now, Sydney wasn't there. She was actually on a blind date.

[12:17] Jessica: Was that a real date, or was she seeing a client?

[12:20] Meg: She said she was on a blind date. She had a whole other life. She did this for a living, and then she hung out with her society friends.

[12:28] Jessica: And did they know?

[12:29] Meg: No, they all thought she just worked in fashion. They had absolutely no idea. Okay, so the next day, she bailed out the women, and then she turned herself in.

[12:38] Jessica: No. Yeah.

[12:39] Meg: I mean, she called a lawyer, and they were like, you got to turn yourself in because there's a warrant out for you. Oh, there was a warrant, and she was released on $7,500 bail. The New York Post can take credit for the moniker the Mayflower Madam, both the Post and the Daily News ran nude pictures of Sydney that an old boyfriend from FIT had taken of her.

[13:01] Jessica: Well, that is just sleazy. Wait, so the Post was running fully nude photos?

[13:08] Meg: Apparently. Like, she was naked, but I don't think you could see her private parts.

[13:12] Jessica: Interesting.

[13:13] Meg: I tried to find them, but I also kind of didn't want to find them because that's really awful. Her boyfriend took naked pictures of her. He sells them, and they put them in.

[13:22] Jessica: You do realize what era we live in now, right?

[13:26] Meg: What do you mean?

[13:27] Jessica: Well, people snapping photos of themselves and whoever and putting them online.

[13:32] Meg: Well, this sounds like revenge porn to me, and it sounds horrible. I mean, these were private pictures that were supposed to be for personal use.

[13:39] Jessica: I understand. Okay.

[13:40] Meg: They also published pics of her with her society friends in Westhampton.

[13:45] Jessica: Well, that I would not I would not find acceptable. That is guilt by association. Muffy exactly. No, thank you.

[13:53] Meg: And they did not like seeing their pictures in the paper next to the Mayflower Madam.

[14:00] Jessica: Did she get a lot of phone calls, like, oh, Sydney.

[14:03] Meg: Well, that actually comes up later. All right. She was actually unfazed. She threw the Mayflower Defense Fund Ball at The Limelight, where people dressed like they were attending a debutante cotillion.

[14:16] Jessica: Now, that is moxie.

[14:18] Meg: I know, right? She wore a white dress and white gloves and stood in a receiving line to greet her guests, who paid $40 to attend. The proceeds went to her defense lawyers, who were worth their fee. Their defense strategy? They threatened to release the clients in her black book, many of whom were lawyers. So the District Attorney offered a plea bargain. Sydney pled guilty to one count of promoting prostitution and got a $5,000 fine. sweetheart deal. She was quite the celebrity in the 80s, as we both recall.

[14:52] Jessica: Indeed.

[14:53] Meg: She wrote a book called The Mayflower Madam, which I've been quoting from, which was number one on the New York Times nonfiction bestseller list and was turned into a made for TV movie starring, I have no idea, Candice Bergen.

[15:07] Jessica: Oh, God. That's good casting.

[15:09] Meg: And she appeared on all the talk shows, all of them Donahue, you name it. She went on the lecture circuit through The Learning Annex, telling women why their husbands go to sex workers and how they can keep their husbands at home. Some of this hasn't aged well.

[15:27] Jessica: I'm just loving how, on the one hand, I'm sort of rooting for Sydney and remembering her from the time, and on the other hand, I'm like, this is some backwards shit. Talk about privilege. That she was able to, if you'll excuse the expression, straddle the line between these two worlds.

[15:47] Meg: You are good.

[15:48] Jessica: Jessica.

[15:49] Meg: She married and divorced Darnay Hoffman. She wrote and performed a one woman show called How Did A Nice Girl Like You she was definitely taking advantage of this moment of celebrity, as she had to, because she had no income anymore and could not get a job.

[16:07] Jessica: Now.

[16:07] Meg: Currently 2022. 2022. Now she gives business advice to entrepreneurs who pay $2,200 for (4) 90 minutes phone sessions. She lives in the same one bedroom Upper West Side rent controlled department as she did in 1984.

[16:25] Jessica: Upper West Side.

[16:27] Meg: Quote, "I have no regrets. I didn't plan on it. I just fell into it. I don't feel I've done anything wrong. There are a lot of girls out there who wouldn't have gone to college if it weren't for being involved in my escort service." Sad and bizarre. Note Darnay Hoffman, her ex husband was Bernard Goetz's and Joel Steinberg's lawyer, and he committed suicide in her apartment in 2011.

[16:57] Jessica: What?

[16:57] Meg: I know. I mean, that's, like, crazy stuff.

[17:00] Jessica: That is crazy. I know.

[17:03] Meg: Do you want to hear some quotes? This one I don't think has aged well. "I think women have lost sight of their femininity. Men call us," meaning her escort service "because they want real girls." This one also is pretty bad. "The more you act like a lady, the more he'll act like a gentleman."

[17:24] Jessica: Oh, is that all it takes?

[17:26] Meg: Okay, the next two aren't quite so bad. "A call girl is simply someone who hates poverty more than she hates sin."

[17:33] Jessica: That's actually a great line.

[17:34] Meg: Yeah. And this one "Never say anything on the phone that you wouldn't want your mother to hear at your trial."

[17:40] Jessica: Oh, okay. That's I know you're ending on the perfect note. That's really ideal.

[17:46] Meg: But yeah. The fact is, she was a pretty conservative person. I mean, I appreciate her moxie. I love her hustle, but she was true to type.

[17:56] Jessica: She was a product of her environment and somehow managed to justify this one portion of her life that was completely way out there.

[18:05] Meg: And it's true. I mean, talk about privilege, because if she had been any other kind of pimp, which is exactly what she was, she would have gotten in a hell of a lot more trouble.

[18:17] Jessica: Yeah, she wouldn't have been on Donahue, remember? I mean, let's just have a moment about Donahue. Donahue. God, is he still alive?

[18:24] Meg: I think he lives in my dad's building.

[18:26] Jessica: Are you kidding me right now? No. We could go knock on with Marlowe. Are you kidding me right now? Oh, my God. What are we doing here?

[18:34] Meg: I see her and him all the time.

[18:37] Jessica: We have to go over to your dad's house now. Oh, my God. Phil Donahue, he he had the best delivery. His whole schtick was, what do I know? I know nothing. And then tell me everything. He was so charming and completely whackadoodle.

[18:56] Meg: I adored him. We have to do a story that loops in some of those. There was a Donohue with those club kids.

[19:03] Jessica: I remember that.

[19:04] Meg: You can see a lot of them on YouTube.

[19:05] Jessica: Yes. And Maury Povich used to be like that, but then it just became a paternity test show. Now we sound like Natasha Lyonne when you go back to Jackie Mason. The reason I love that story is because it really is so New York. It's this seamless blending of complete opposites and people just finding a way to live in that gray area happily.

[19:35] Meg: And what she was justifying felt very 80s. It's about making money. What's the problem here? And also about gender roles. So there's nothing to apologize for there.

[19:49] Jessica: I love it. I love it. It is as 80s as it gets. The Mayflower. And not to throw cold water on the Knickerbocker Club, but that whole scene, like society, the remnants of Mrs. Astor's 400, they were still skulking in the corners when we were kids. And now really passe. I can't imagine that anyone would give half a fig for

[20:16] Meg: Alice didn't want to go to the Golden Silver.

[20:17] Jessica: Come on.

[20:18] Meg: She was like, It's not cool. Oh, and by the way, her name was dropped from the social register.

[20:25] Jessica: Social death. I'll ruin you socially. Sydney. Well, I guess that's what that means. I'll ruin you socially. You're off the list.

[20:34] Meg: But the funny thing is they have pictures of that ball that she held.

[20:39] Jessica: And it was indistinguishable from any normal debut.

[20:43] Meg: Well, you would think that all those people in Westhampton would be scandalized and wouldn't want to be associated with her, but they actually thought it was a hoot and they all showed a Biddle cousin showed up in a tiara to show that she was cool.

[20:57] Jessica: Well, if you think about the era, the 80s being the gogo 80s as they were, it's very similar to the 1920s. And in the know, you know about this, but in London, the bright young people who were the society kids were doing stuff like that all the time to scandalize and be cooler than cool by being utre, if you will. It's right on brand for her. It's an old school way of being naughty.

[21:29] Meg: No, they seemed like they were having a blast.

[21:32] Jessica: It's probably a good party for $40 ahead back then you mentioned something about Sydney Biddle Barrows.

[21:40] Meg: I did. I mentioned a few things

[21:43] Jessica: That is pertinent to what I have to talk about. Okay. So keep your ears open, see if you can see the crossover. All right. I was talking to someone who was asking me, do we always do something where there's crossover? And I was like, not intentionally. And then I started to think, like, why is it that there's so much crossover in our stories? And then I had the biggest moment of I'm an idiot. It was the 80's. Oh, yeah. It was the 80's in New York City. In New York City.

[22:10] Meg: In New York City. In one place.

[22:11] Jessica: Yeah. Okay, so that's why for those of you who are listening and wondering and had that question, it's the whole point of the podcast. Right.

[22:20] Meg: But we don't plan in advance. We don't tell each other, we don't.

[22:24] Jessica: Know what we're going to talk about. Alfie is a little woofie down there.

[22:27] Meg: He's eager to know what you're going to talk about.

[22:29] Jessica: I know. Well, okay, so we didn't start with our engagement question like we normally do.

[22:34] Meg: That was the Knickerbocker thing.

[22:35] Jessica: Oh, yeah, that's right, you did. Okay. My engagement question is how did you get spending money when you were a teenager?

[22:45] Meg: I had a series of after school jobs. I worked at P.S. I Love You. It was a card shop. I worked at Grand Gelato. That sold gelato.

[22:57] Jessica: How old were you when you started doing this?

[22:59] Meg: Junior year of high school, I believe.

[23:02] Jessica: So 16. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, what I'm talking about today is working as a kid in the just don't think it's the same thing these days. So as the person with children, you can tell me how far off it is.

[23:18] Meg: Yeah, I mean, Alice had an internship.

[23:20] Jessica: No, not internships.

[23:25] Meg: Has she worked retail? No, she has not worked retail or food service.

[23:30] Jessica: You know what? I worked so many places as a teenager that I actually forgot that I worked retail. I worked at The Gap.

[23:38] Meg: You also worked at P.S. I Love You.

[23:40] Jessica: I know I worked at P.S. I Love You. With you. I know that. But I had totally forgotten about The Gap and want to know why I didn't last there. I can guess. Yeah. What do you think?

[23:51] Meg: I think you probably got bored.

[23:53] Jessica: Well, I did. That's a unifying theme for many jobs that I got bored and forgot. The problem that I had with The Gap was that my job was to fold the wall of jeans. Do you remember the wall of jeans? It was so dusty that I was having allergies attacks constantly. I was like a little flower, and I was such a mess. I went home and said to my mom, I can't do that feel well. She's like, well, line up another job and figure it out. And I was like, okay. Interestingly, though, I had that job when I was 15. It was like an end of summer job. I think it was a little dicey. I can't even remember how I got the job because you were not supposed to work. You were not employable until you were 16 in New York City. Again, I don't know if that's still the case. So I'm going to take us on a little tour of kids working in the city, starting up at the Upper East Side, hitting midtown and then going down to Wall Street. Like you, I worked at C'est Moi, the card store, and had made a habit of eating all of the same WA.

[25:03] Meg: It wasn't, P.S. I Love You.

[25:05] Jessica: P.S.

[25:05] Meg: I love you had all those cute little turtlenecks with hearts all over them. That's where I like to shop, where I worked was C'est Moi.

[25:13] Jessica: C'est Moi was right around the corner from us from school.

[25:16] Meg: And they had two locations. There was another one on 96th, and I worked there.

[25:20] Jessica: Yes. Oh, my God. I remember that.

[25:22] Meg: But someone was held up there. Do you remember that?

[25:25] Jessica: Yes, I do. Well, do you know why I ceased to work there?

[25:29] Meg: I do know why. Are you going to tell?

[25:34] Jessica: Yes. I think it was the summer before going to college, and I was with my mother at Bloomingdale's during the day, being tortured, having to get some clothing to get ready for college. And in the middle of shopping, I freaked out because I remembered I was the one who had to open the store. Instead, I was shopping in Bloomingdale's. It's a moment of privilege, and I'm going to own it. My mother didn't know what happened. I ran out of there so fast. It was like, I'm in trouble. I tried so hard. And the woman who owned it, I don't remember what her name was.

[26:14] Meg: Neither do I. But she had very short blonde hair.

[26:16] Jessica: She just looked at me with utter disgust and said, I think you need to give me the keys to the store back. But also my pleasure.

[26:26] Meg: 16 years old opening a store.

[26:29] Jessica: Well, I think that's sort of no, but that's part of my point about working when we were that age, is that we were going into situations that were also legit jobs for adults. So, yeah, opening the store, any 16 year old I now know, I wouldn't let them open an envelope, much less store. I have no idea what she well, no, she was thinking that we were little grownups, and that was a normal thing to do.

[26:55] Meg: And the girl who was held up at gunpoint on 96th street at the C'est Moi, she buzzed someone in, and then it was just her in a small store with a guy with a gun. And it could have gone so much worse. He just stole the money. Thank God.

[27:12] Jessica: Thank God. There we were, jobs. That was something that we did after school, during the summer. And if we had anything going on during the summer, it was right that little stretch between returning and starting school again. The other thing that a lot of people did was waiting tables or trying to do something in that world. So as we go down the East Side, we're now going to go to Cafe Bianco. Do you remember Cafe Bianco?

[27:39] Meg: No. Where's that?

[27:39] Jessica: W 77th and Second. Okay. It no longer exists.

[27:43] Meg: Can I say Grand Gelato, which was on 91st and Third. That was my gelato store that Minaz and I worked at.

[27:52] Jessica: Really? How cute. Well, I worked the same wall with you and Amy Gottlieb, and Amy gottlieb was with me. She was with me when Paul Newman walked into the store.

[28:02] Meg: Christie Brinkley walked in when I was Paul Newman. Okay, sorry, sorry. Paul Newman.

[28:07] Jessica: So I tried working at Cafe Bianco, and bizarrely, they gave me a job as the hostess. I'm a very short person. To be a hostess, you have to be tall and commanding. I was really not the presence they were looking for. And it was a really hot place to go at the time, and it was filled with yuppies who were pushing to get in, like, later at night, and I yelled at them and left. So another bad moment in working.

[28:38] Meg: Can I tell you another Grand Gelato story?

[28:40] Jessica: Yes.

[28:40] Meg: They also had another storefront down on McDougall Street. So that's when I started.

[28:46] Jessica: I remember that one.

[28:47] Meg: That was a gorgeous shop, actually. It was beautiful. But the guy who owned it, we thought it was maybe a front for the mafia, because whenever it was on McDougall Street, whenever the owner showed up with his friend, they were really kind of slimy.

[29:04] Jessica: They were like

[29:07] Meg: I didn't like their attitude towards me at all. And this one guy once said to me, you'd be in a better mood if you sat on my face.

[29:16] Jessica: Oh, how charming.

[29:17] Meg: He said that to a 16 year old girl.

[29:20] Jessica: Well, they're known for their good manners

[29:24] Meg: I was scandalized as well.

[29:27] Jessica: But to get back to working yes. We grew up during a period when as we started to talk about during your Mayflower Madam piece, Alfie no, no editorializing. We were sort of the tail end of things being done the old ways. Okay. And one example of that is that at Nightingale, we had to take typing classes. And I don't know if you know this or remember this, but we didn't have typing facilities at the schoolhouse. So I was sent, with BFF of the podcast Regina George showing up in every it is ridiculous. We were sent together to Elaine Revel Secretarial School. Wow. To prepare us for jobs even though we were at the school that was teaching us be a master of the universe or a mistress of the universe at the same time. Off we went to typing classes. Wow. It didn't do well for like it didn't take. And I was with Regina, so we were just goofing off the entire time. Later on when I was in college and had to get jobs and admittedly, I got fired from a lot of legit jobs. I worked for a focus group, and I was bored and spaced out, and it wasn't good. But then I realized the right thing for me and this should have told me a lot about myself at the time, if I only knew. Temping oh, yes. Was the thing. And I don't know if kids temp anymore, but it was the best gig you could possibly get. You'd register with a temp agency or multiple temp agencies, and then you'd be working pretty much nonstop and lo and

[31:13] Meg: Behold, answering phones and stuffing envelopes and doing stuff like that in offices exactly.

[31:18] Jessica: Including typing. And miraculously, I don't know what it was, but the typing kicked in. It was like a survival instinct because I remember I had to go to god, what was the temp place called? It'll come to me. But you had to take a typing test. And that was a really big thing, because if you did well on the typing test, you didn't have to get the shittiest jobs. Right. So I tried really, really hard and eventually got there. But before I got there, I had to open all of the entries that were letters for a sweepstakes, for a magazine. That was fun. And talk about old fashioned. I worked for Crain's New York Business in the telephone operator room, where I literally had those cables, like and I Love Lucy I'm totally serious. Where I had to be like, hold, please, on one. ringy dingy. Let me put you through to Mr. So and so.

[32:16] Meg: That is incredible.

[32:18] Jessica: It was it's totally bizarre.

[32:20] Meg: It's like going back in time.

[32:22] Jessica: But was it? It was just back in time. Right.

[32:26] Meg: But I do kind of remember that some of the places that would hire temps where I would be answering phones, where I was like, you guys haven't changed your pants since 1965.

[32:39] Jessica: Or your technology since 1945. Yes, but then once I started to do well in my typing tests, well, things got better. And here's the Sydney Biddle Barrows crossover. We were required by these agencies to wear stockings and suits, and if not a suit, a skirt, and like, a twinset or a blouse and a little sweater, something like that, but stockings and high heels. And I remember that going to these different jobs in the summertime in New York City in August, it's so hot that the tar in the street melts and your heels sink into it. And it was just one of the many banes of our existence. It was like, oh, look, a rat. And I'm stuck in tar so I can't run away. I'm wearing pumps and stockings. But I did have some really good temp jobs, and my favorite one was, I was hired by and this is very 80s, so that's why I'm bringing it up. There was a company that was conference rooms and offices and, like, a gym and a really professional kitchen for companies that didn't have those amenities, but they had, like, big meetings or retreats, and so you could go there and rent the space so you could have your fancy whatever.

[34:00] Meg: I feel like the city is chock full of places like that now, but they might have been rather rare at the time.

[34:06] Jessica: It was very rare at the time. And here's what's even rarer. They were ready to go and they had people booked, but they didn't have any of the stuff that they needed in the kitchen, in the sauna, in the bathroom.

[34:18] Meg: Like Fyre Festival

[34:19] Jessica: Exactly. So what did they do? They hired a 19 year old from a temp agency.

[34:25] Meg: They hired Jessica Dorfman.

[34:28] Jessica: Oh, my gosh. They gave that kid

[34:32] Meg: This is more Fyre Festival by the minute.

[34:34] Jessica: It is. They gave me a credit card, a car service car like a chauffeur, and told me, here's the list. Go shopping.

[34:43] Meg: Oh, my God.

[34:44] Jessica: I would have loved that. It was the best thing that ever happened to me, and it spoiled my concept of what jobs should be forever. Well, if I could just go shopping every day. I was ahead of the curve when I didn't show up for C'est Moi. I already know how to do this. So I went and talk about again, I went to Bonwit Teller to get all of the towels and Bloomingdales to get all of the pots and pans and where else? They were all like, Lord & Taylor and all of the places that are now gone.

[35:23] Meg: I bet you were actually excellent at that job.

[35:26] Jessica: Well, I was raised by my mother.

[35:28] Meg: I was just thinking, I wouldn't have known what pots and pans to get. But I think you knew exactly.

[35:34] Jessica: No, here's how my mother trained me when I was a kid, I was mortified because my mom would walk into our other home, Bloomingdales, and immediately say as loudly as she could, I need help. I need help. Who wants to help me? And some poor minion would come running knowing, I'm going to make a commission, but I'm going to make it the hard way right now. So I would saunter into Bonwit Teller and say, I need to fully outfit a spa. What do I need?

[36:12] Meg: Know when you need to ask for help.

[36:13] Jessica: That's it. So I would just they would take one look at me and be like, this is a child in pumps. And then be like, oh, we're going to sell you the contents of the store. Do you have plastic? Yes, I do. Right on. So that was awesome. And it was unfuckupable.

[36:33] Meg: And did your bosses did they just like, you're a genius?

[36:37] Jessica: No, they were just so happy that things were met. I was like santa's elf. Things were just magically appearing. And I knew how to fold this towel very nicely and put it in here.

[36:49] Meg: I'm so proud of you.

[36:51] Jessica: I had one job that really worked out. Let's go a little further downtown also.

[36:56] Meg: Go.

[36:56] Jessica: Also Gogo 80's I worked on Wall Street for I guess they were brokers, but it was all dudes with sweatback hair and pinstripe shirts and right out of American Psycho, they were doing coke all day at their desks, and they did this, like, weird kind of pretending not to let me know. And then they'd be like, you want some? And I was like, definitely not for me, thanks. I don't feel safe again these days. Could you imagine having, like, an 18 year old kid in your office being like, hey, you want blow? Go talk to HR. They'll take care of you. No problem. So these guys were totally bananas, but they were nice. Like, they didn't mean any harm. But they should have known better. Why? Because in 1987 and this was also one of my early temp jobs, I was working Downtown, and I was witness to a very major event. Do you remember what happened in 1987 regarding Wall Street and money?

[38:03] Meg: Was there a crash?

[38:04] Jessica: Yes, honey, there is a very big crash.

[38:08] Meg: There have been a few.

[38:09] Jessica: Is that in 1987? Yes, that was in 87. And I'm even going to tell you it was 1987. And the events that I'm going to describe happen. Black Friday was in October, so this must have been like, May that this happened. So there was so much cocaine flying around Wall Street, so much of it, that the cops like there was no way to look the other way. So they had a big sting operation. They set it up so that like then there was some group of guys at one of the banks that were dealing as well as buying and the New York Police Department named their sting Buy and Cry. Because if you bought the coke, you were going to cry. You're going to lose your license. You couldn't be on Wall Street anymore. You couldn't be a trader. So they had this giant sting, I remember, and it took me years to put these two things together, but I was down there, and I saw all of these guys in suits with their hands up against the wall on one of the main buildings that's right across from Trinity Church. I was like, what the hell is and of course, I assumed it had something to do with drugs, but I had no idea what it was. And as I was researching for this, I was like, oh my God, that's what I saw. Witness operation Buy and Cry.

[39:35] Meg: Now, what is the connection with the coke sting and the crack?

[39:39] Jessica: None. I'm just putting it in time. I'm just giving you a sense.

[39:42] Meg: It all happened at the same time completely.

[39:45] Jessica: The gogo 80's. And all of that activity was fueled by ridiculous amounts of money. So not only were the police finally cracking down, but this incredibly irresponsible. Well, we've talked about this many times with my father. What are the reasons behind the financial crisis? Which we won't get into.

[40:05] Meg: Yeah, we'll have to have Burt on to explain the financial crisis, but it.

[40:09] Jessica: Was the end of the gravy train. counselor. My favorite story about temping is actually the following. And this happened late in college, so it might have been 1990. Other BFF of the podcast, Nick. Oh, yes. Our beloved Nick. Well, like me, Nick didn't really take to working very much. And Nick was also temping for the obvious reasons. Like me, he got bored a lot. One day, remarkably, I show up for my temp job, and who's, they're also for the temp job, but Nick. How fun. And we were like, what the hell? What's going on? And the office looked really weird. It looked like it had been half cleared out. The people who were there were kind of furtively rushing around. And the person came out and was like, okay, you're just going to have to answer the phones. And when you answer the phones, just say that no one is here today and we are closed today. Nick and I looked at each other, and we knew something bad was happening at this place. I looked at him, he looked at me, and he will never forgive me for this. It comes up every five years. I was like, smell you later. Got to go. I left. So he got I was like, you got the job. He was like, I hate you with every fiber

[41:39] Meg: I would have stayed just out of curiosity.

[41:41] Jessica: Well, my mother was going to kill me if I didn't bring home the bacon. This is the woman who terrorized Bloomingdales.

[41:48] Meg: What happened to Nick?

[41:50] Jessica: Well, he's still alive. As you know. He made it out I bet he's got a great story. Well, maybe we need to get him on here for a follow up. So this is less an analysis of socioeconomic conditions for young workers in the 80s. This is more of, well, here's some shit that happened when I tried to work. And it's really 80s because drugs and stockings and retail. And retail. Exactly.

[42:27] Meg: Gap folding jeans of the Gap folding jeans.

[42:32] Jessica: When someone says, what is your personal hell? I revise it frequently, but I frequently do return to the wall of jeans and just wait to cap it off again. Old fashioned, you know linen is very popular right now. Okay, but at the time, in the summertime, you wore poplin, linen or seersucker, in our preppy world, like, that was it. And I remember I had an entire wardrobe of linen skirts, and you'd sit down in your sweaty stockings, and the linen would instantly accordion up.

[43:12] Meg: Exactly. And you just always wrinkled and horrible.

[43:15] Jessica: Yeah. I'm like, not in a cool, like, hey, I'm on the beach in Santa Monica kind of way. No, sweaty and crumpled up, like the tie that a schoolboy leaves at the bottom of his bag. That's what you are. You're just a sweaty scrap. Anyway, so those are some moments of attempting to work in the 80s. You're welcome.

[43:38] Meg: Thank you, Jessica. I'm glad that you finally found the thing that fits perfectly for you.

[43:44] Jessica: Hanging out with you and talking. Yes. Okay. Yes. I found the perfect way to work. Who knew? Okay, so the more that I reflect on your story, Meg, the more I realize that there is something so quintessentially New York in there that we we kind of have to highlight, which is no matter what happened to the Mayflower Madam, no matter how her fortunes rose or fell, she stayed in her rent controlled, one bedroom apartment. Even with the death of her husband in there, she did not move. And you can't be more of a New Yorker than that. Yes. So it's the end of another podcast. How can people engage with us?

[44:37] Meg: We would love for you to follow us on Instagram and on Facebook, and we would love for you to rate and review us on Spotify and Apple podcasts. We want to hear your stories, any ideas that you have for us. We want to research them, and we want to tell you about them.. .